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News Online petition- climbing in Grampians/ Gariwerd

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Chaeron, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    LOL. It’s VIC - National Parks are THE magic pudding - for most it’s all take....
     
  2. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    What makes you think PV needs extra funding ?
     
  3. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    All national parks do
     
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  4. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Regular duties for rangers and a few signs plus a bit of admin. Not exactly a huge scope of works is it ?
     
  5. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    All parks do. Why do you think you should not fund regulation of your recreational activity?
     
  6. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I would like more funding for sure. I dont do the govt budget . Do we realy need to drift closer to a lets negotiate with a cash pledge attitude ? Who pays more ? - climbers ? Bushwalkers ? etc etc?
     
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  7. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    If all parks had more funding then they could adequately manage the areas they are responsible for and educate users about correct usage of the areas so the whole debarcle would not occur in the first place.
    No one should pay!
     
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  8. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Exactly. The problem with this issue however has not been lack of money. Both parties have been complacent.
     
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  9. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    15,000 signatures as at 7:00 20/03.
     
  10. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Who is talking about negotiating with a cash pledge attitude (whatever that is)? If your activity costs resources pay for that activity, at least in part. In NSW we pay for vehicular entry into some parks. It's a simple option. Or pay a few bucks for a climbing permit. Fisherfolk do that. People who participate in your sport have created a problem. It is not anyone else's problem to resolve it.
     
  11. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Vic has a recent political history of free Park access. It’s unlikely to change.

    Anglers (NSW) pay a fee which was designed to make buying out subsistence pro fishers cost neutral to government, and now pays for a heap of things things that it was generally promised it wouldn’t (basic research, staffing, etc).

    Paying to climb would mean an expectation of receiving benefits for climbers, which is prolly not going to ever happen.

    Climbers are looking to resolve it - hence the discussion and petition.
     
  12. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Then Vic, underfunded as it is, can only use hammers to solve the problem.

    The benefit of paying to climb will be permission to climb. I call that a benefit.

    The attempt to resolve the problem, if the petition is it, is "wah wah - we wanna climb". That is not resolving the problem. It is the problem. If you cannot control your rogues you will be controlled and a blunt instrument is the most cost effective way to do it.
     
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  13. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes and no and yeah.... but you gotta start at the start
     
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  14. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    PV are playing catch-up just to get to the start line.
    Climbers jumped the gun and PV looked the other way until the trickle became a tsunami and it couldn’t be ignored.
     
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  15. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    What is the start? Having a whinge?
     
  16. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    You’d have to read the PV- vic CliffCare at of discussions to work it out. AFAIK the actual extent and intent and who it applies to (Rec users, commercial users, etc) is not overly clear.

    You have to know what the scope of an issue is before working out how/what/where/when/who changes.
     
  17. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    So the petition is premature?
     
  18. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Only time will tell I guess.

    I’m with T-W.
     
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  19. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    UT-W thank you very much!
     
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  20. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Nah the start is, well in 2003 we started climbing in banned areas, and no-one really stopped us, and now you have the gall to enforce the ban!? We've been climbing in banned areas for 15 years, it's historical now!
     
  21. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah pretty much.
     
  22. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    As a climber, I haven't yet signed. Still conflicted.

    It'd be cool if Parks Vic did something to genuinely shake up or push the climbing culture and make Grampians climbing unique. Ban chalk, ban crash pads, remove/chop a whole bunch of sport routes, generally allow trad/clean climbing, allow sport routes subject to a development approval process where you have to get like the majority vote of a least 30 people showing up to a meeting.

    (Ban carrot bolts too!)
     
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  23. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    It’s the native cultural significance which is more historical that is correctly driving the enforcement of regulations now.
     
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  24. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Generation of younger sports climbers starting in gyms and not part of the more traditional climbing culture more sensitive to the parks space and consequently disrespectful of the space, plus commercial operators bolting to make it all easier and quicker have put it out of whack.

    Essentially a limited free public resource has been oversubscribed and consequently degraded, and we now need a quota system or a fee-paying system to manage appropriate use, in addition to tighter regulation with penalties.

    It’s the future of National Parks - when the population was under 20 million, and use of parks was less intensive it was less of an issue.

    Anyway, VIC has always had quotas, ballots, bookings and fees for high use, high attraction public spaces such as the Prom, so that may be the future here too - limited, supervised, paid, booked access.

    It sucks, but it would be a workable solution.
     
    #74 Chaeron, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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  25. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I get that you’re referring to the minimal relative additional cost of policing closed climbing areas, in which case you are entirely correct.

    But we also know public parks in Vic are not adequately funded in broader terms.

    And the dominant commercial users - from lease holders such as lift companies or commercial tour operators, to loggers or water license or grazing lease holders aren’t paying full value- their business model and pricing doesn’t factor this in either.

    Here’s my broader observation on the economics of public land management under the current dispensation in Victoria. (Old man shouting at cloud, in the hope of rain)

    Management of alien species & fire & erosion mitigation & alleviation of human impacts such as salinity, catchment degradation and land clearing (never mind climate change) to ensure sustainable future environmental protection is massive in required scope, grossly under-estimated in cost and VASTLY underfunded, and that’s got nothing directly to do with funding the additional requirements of access management & providing associated ‘amenities’ to park users.

    Even if one is only protecting future natural assets (water, timber, exploitable biodiversity assets) as opposed to maintaining ongoing biodiversity there is significant under-investment.

    In Victoria we currently have a public lands management policy which defaults to deliberate, strategic neglect and abuse, with irreversible consequences for the environment and the population.

    We’re causing, or not preventing irreversible damage to the environment on public land, and pretending it’s land management.

    It’s like laizzes faire economic management without government taking on the monopolies, druglords, loansharks, assassins or career criminals - naive.

    When I’m outside the cities I observe a natural holocaust, which to the naive observer may look ‘green’ ( for a part of the year) and ‘natural’ but what we have is in fact a permanently degraded shadow of a sensitive, irrevocably damaged ecosystem, with even worse outcomes ahead - systems collapse.

    I’m no eco-warrior, but a lifetime of exposure to the eco-sciences and geo-sciences and agriculture means I struggle to have a romantic view of our degraded natural spaces, even when I’m out there in the most beautiful and remote remnants of our ‘natural heritage’. ‘Nature’ may be tough, but it’s also fragile.

    Paradise is and was only a myth.
     
    #75 Chaeron, Mar 21, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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  26. The Plowking

    The Plowking Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Massive degredation the past 20 years in the north east. Deer and other invasive species, fires followed by further incursions of invasive plant species.
     
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  27. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    *old man's voice* When I was a lad, I'd visit the Grampians on a regular basis, I lived in the outer western suburubs of MEL. Not so far away. We'd wander about and track all over the hot spots that the tourists trampled, tried the 'nerve test'? and trudged about Mt William for the views... Cathedral Rock for some boy-ish bravado

    That was nearly 4 decades ago. Much has gone on since. Shame.
     
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  28. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    just a couple of images to remind us what we are talking about....





     
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  29. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    17K petitioners as at 9:00 21/04.

    For scale - same as Horsham’s population. :cool:
     
  30. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    Everything ends up looking like the Mandelbrot set.

    i.e. the patterns are always similar and they repeat - the more you dig, the more it looks fractal.

    websites, pageviews, petitions. youtube plays, websites within a niche (eg tropical fishkeeping, or snow sport) whatever it is you look at - the deeper the data set the more it looks like a repeating pattern and the only variable is the magnitude.

    ———

    Everything ends up as a Zipf distribution.

    i.e. 1% earns the lions share, 9% does ok, 90% gets little.

    So it's no surprise that some online petitions resonate (for whatever reason) and capture significantly more signatures/activity. Discerning what 1% will be the big winners is fundamentally a crap-shoot (remember Kony 2012 ?). It's impossible to *consistently* predict which items in the set will win, but it's guaranteed that 1% of any set will be the big winners.

    ———

    Everything waxes then wanes.

    i.e. growth is slow, if you’re lucky it may hockey stick - but growth always ends, then it collapses and new growth lives elsewhere.

    The first 10,000 votes happened quickly, then it slowed, now it's slowing more. Eventually there will be zero new 'signatures' and a new petition will be the hot issue of the day.

    ———


    Apologies for the Wookie philosophy but that’s all I got to answer such a big question.


    My guess was this result would have been a bad technical set up.

    Example; a .com domain (instead of .com.au) hosted on a cheap US datacenter looks like it is intended for a US audience to Google, especially if the content is insufficiently localised.
     
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  31. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    20K. And now slowing -close to maximum.
     
    #81 Chaeron, Mar 26, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  32. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Petition plateauing - now at 21K.
     
  33. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    #83 Chaeron, Apr 26, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  34. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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  35. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I've jumped off the fence; I've signed the petition.

    Park Victoria's behaviour is appalling, hypocritical, and slanderous. Perhaps the tipping point for me was the image of the bulldozer demolishing bushland to make way for the Grampians Peaks Trail.
     
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  36. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Exactly, I wouldn't mind so much if they were actually consistent. They could either be very "visitor friendly" and put in new tracks and allow people to use established climbing areas or go hard line ecological and refuse both.

    But their approach of banning climbing while at the same time building a dirty great, all singing, all dancing, gold platted walking track strikes me as more than a little hypocritical. Surely the parks bureaucracy don't have double standards? :eek:
     
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  37. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    People underestimate the growing rightful influence of indigenous politics and land management.
    This IMO is the driving force and climbers have to respect that.
     
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  38. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    True

    But equally part of the agenda of that influence is the monetisation of the land management to invest back into the community.
     
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  39. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    That is a big leap conspiracy theory, clutching at straws conclusion by a certain person or perhaps peoples in a very defensive yet aggressive attack against Parks Victoria (who indeed have shot themselves in the foot in the PR, facts dept) regarding climbing as a stand alone entitled activity.
    Parks Victoria is being sued by Aboriginal Victoria because of climbing impacts.
    It’s a tipping point!
    Interesting times.
    We reap what we sow (bolt / chalk)
     
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  40. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not clutching at straws nor a conspiracy theory.

    I will restate my position I see faults on both sides of this debate, I am extremely sensitive to the rights of indigenous. Hell +1 and I won’t climb Jagungal to the main summit (we go to the south summit) as Jagungal is a men’s place. I can’t comment on bolts as I do not know enough, but I totally agree on chalk graffiti you would leave a piece of gear so don’t leave chalk. (@Telemark Phat what environment effect could the chalk have as it washes into the ground?)

    Part of me wonders if Aboriginal Victoria would have taken legal action regardless of climbers actions? Have climbers poured fuel on the fire? Sure! I see to an extent climbers have blundered in between two parties and given Aboriginal Victoria the opportunity and Parks Victoria the scape goat.

    My point on the monetisation of land management is not a conspiracy theory. Who better to look after a church than the church! Who better to look after the land and artefacts than the Aboriginal. We have examples of Indigenous land management across Australia, Uluru, Katherine Gorge and Jarvis bay to name but a few. The model is the same.

    My question is what comes of Aboriginal Victoria’s legal action, who gains? What will be the outcome? Is the legal action about money? Is the legal action about enforcing change and better land management?
     
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  41. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    No, no, no! I didn’t mean you bro but Mr Carter.
    Interestingly since the SPA climbing bans were introduced a new Grampians Climbing guide has been released with 1400 routes not in any banned areas.
    It’s an unCarter guide too!

    More routes than in the Carter guide where lots of areas are banned.

    There is still lots of legal climbing to be had in the Grampians!
     
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  42. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Your good. I do not know Mr Carter’s influence and I am guessing the guide books have a lot to answer for.

    I have been looking at the Budja Budja co-op, who represent the local community. They appear very, very organised and ideally placed to manage the site. I think they the climbers need to start working directly with them.
     
  43. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I often point to the way Tathra got legal MTB trails. The first time I rode there, it was on a rumour, and I asked around, got shown a map of an illegal network, and told to have fun but keep my mouth shut. Some years later, the trails were declared legal, and massively extended. My understanding is that the local Aboriginal community was approached, and a management plan agreed. The council was hit with a cant say no case, based on community benefit, and Aboriginal support.

    Now this was a fair while ago, and my memory may be incorrect, but would that not be a good way to go in many cases? Aboriginal land managers should be a good thing for everyone.
     
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  44. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    If a crag were popular enough the magnesium in the chalk could make a difference to soil physical properties, improving them enough for new plants to invade at the bottom of the crag. It would be a pretty small impact compared to the movement of climbers at the bottom of a crag though. The carbonate in the chalk would mineralise pretty quickly once dissolved.

    The biggest impact of chalk would probably the mining of the magnesite ore and processing into pure magnesite (MgCO3).
     
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  45. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Interesting that other user groups are now expressing concerns over being locked out of the Grampians.

    It would seem that some on this forum would do well to read this thread and understand how uncontrolled actions of some (no matter how positive they appear) can cause access issues for all.
     
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  46. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    Depending upon your interpretation of the information presented, it doesn't seem as though there have been any genuinely "uncontrolled actions" - apart from Parks Vic royally putting their foot in it by claiming that a bolt placed near an Aboriginal artwork was done by climbers, then having to backpedal after it was shown that *they* placed that bolt, as part of a cage to protect the artwork.

    In terms of restriction of access, this snippet from Mr Carter's writings is worth greater consideration:
    [​IMG]
     
  47. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Have people been climbing in areas where they shouldn't?
     
  48. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    Being a non-climber it's hard to tell. By the looks of it there has been mixed messaging from Parks Vic in the past, and potentially an "averted gaze" approach to enforcement of areas where there were restrictions in place - but again, I'm not clear on this.

    What does seem apparent is that much of the bluster coming out of Parks Vic is demonstrably false, especially if the concern is around access routes being made by climbers when they are artificially manufacturing an "experience" trail using light earthmoving equipment.
     
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  49. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Here lies the crux, as UTW points out, every time a new climb is put up and bolted and placed in a guide book it is encouraging people into an area. That area may have sensitive plantlife etc that the bolder had no idea about, they think their actions are okay and harm no body but in fact the lack of communication with land owners is an issue.

    Don’t get me wrong parks Victoria response has been very poor but user groups have to look at their actions as well and consider how these may have contributed to the situation.

    Edit IMO restrictions or bookings is only part of the answer.
     
    #99 zac150, Apr 28, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
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  50. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Whole of Park booking for somewhere as popular (and large) as the Gramps sounds like a nightmare.
     
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