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News Online petition- climbing in Grampians/ Gariwerd

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Chaeron, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I tend to agree, I was thinking more a permit system that contributed directly to the park and management.

    What is the current process on setting up new routes?
     
  2. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
     
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  3. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Nowhere has an actual process for new routes.

    Maybe the Elbestan?

    It’s one of those PoM things that makes it sound like you are providing for something but there is then no process to follow through.

    I’m sure to be wrong and there is some crag somewhere with a vibrant culture and god climbing and a manager-endorsed and involved new route culture but I don’t know it. Even the Elbestan is climber-run (well, it was).
     
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  4. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Up here there are regulations written into the Plans of Management

    Blue Mountains National Park Plan of Management 2001Bolting & Climbing Regulations

    - the exclusion of new bolts from wilderness areas, canyons and established rock climbs, except where the NPWS Regional Manager approves the replacement of existing bolts;

    * Approved climbing sites in the park are recognised at Glenbrook Gorge, Sublime Point, Three Sisters (subject to further planning) to Katoomba Falls, Narrow Neck, and parts of the Grose Valley (sites known to climbers as Victorialand, Ikara, Victoria Falls, Pierces Pass and Hanging Rock). The establishment of new rock climbs at sites which are not approved climbing sites will require prior consultation with the Service.

    Rockclimbing routes which are established outside approved climbing sites without prior consultation with the Service may be closed.

    - control of bolting in other locations;

    - acceptable bolting techniques, including the exclusion of power drills.

    * Bolts which are placed in contravention of the provisions of this plan or the codes of conduct, which are no longer required or which are leading to unacceptable environmental or safety impacts may be removed following assessment of safety and environmental issues.

    .No power drills or bolts in wilderness.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    The Gardens of Stone National Park Plan of Management 2009 Bolting Regulations

    No new rock bolts or anchors may be placed within the park. Existing bolts may be replaced on the north east escarpment of Carne Creek in accordance with the rock climbing code of conduct and with the written permission of the Regional Manager
     
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  5. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Jesus it’s all happening in this thread!Grampians at flash point ??
    Claims and counter claims ?

    Draconian regulations vs sensible land management.

    And Richard seems to have been sniffing petrol before his post ....Team Bears trying to make sense out of his non sensible rant?

    Parks Vicco “framing” the climbing fraternity!Fitting them up !

    Claims of rock art damage?

    Worst of all “Access Trail”construction without the stamp of approval by Team Bears!!
    Parks Vicco claiming folk are crapping everywhere and despoiling the environment?

    Some indigenous folk jumping up and down?

    So much happening while Team Bears have been beavering away with chainsaws and brushcutters!

    Team Bears undecided where the truth lies here??
     
  6. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Grampians climbing ban is being featured on The 7.30 Report tonight.
     
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  7. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Eldorado Canyon in Coloradbro. You have to fill out an application and put the proposed new route to public display and comment! See here.
     
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  8. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  9. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Ah that's actually the climbing guiding application whoops. Link is broken for their new route permit form. But they have it!
     
  10. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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  11. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    So there’s a couple of crags out of some ten gadzillion crags globally.
     
  12. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    So no power drills allowed you young whippersnappers. Handheld drill bits like when we started off- an incentive to space them further apart and utilise trad gear where possible.
     
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  13. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Carrots are so hot right now
     
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  14. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    If you grind the bolt down too much just make it poke through a RURP and bash away :cool:
     
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  15. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Drilling only on lead and only by hand, like in tuolumne! That'll toughen up the sport climbers.
     
  16. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hooks and birdbeaks in bolt holes only.
     
  17. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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  18. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  19. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    7 30 Report story was quite short.
     
  20. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes it added nothing substantial to Team Bears understanding of the issues.

    Superficial coverage is the term?

    With the bans in the Grampians....does it follow that Arapiles will become more crowded?
     
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  21. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Belongs in the irony thread. Climbers puting hand chalk marks are ruining all the other hand chalk marks!
     
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  22. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just watched 7.30 on IView.
    Having been involved in the 3 Sisters climbing ban negotiations, which started off as an erosion issue and rightly ended in a total ban because of indigenous issues, which even NPWS weren’t privy to, as they were secret and tribal.
    IMO, its all over red rover for the SPA’s in The Grampians.
    To argue against the traditional owners will be correctly seen as spoilt, entitled, white people being just spoilt, entitled, white people.
     
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  23. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    I like your sarcasm.
    Humour is required.
    (I still have your chains btw)
     
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  24. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Quite possibly. Esp when it's phrased along the lines of climber impacts are akin to defacing the opera house!
     
  25. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Tarana by the harbour!
     
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  26. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sure we will party again at your place soon. Although i did get a nasty sore around my ankles and wrists last time. Perhaps we should use less rusty chains next time.
     
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  27. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Whip it good.
     
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  28. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Agree with you and UTW on this especially in light of your earlier post (age article). I spoke to the plus one and she said there are hundreds of sites in the alps that have been located and logged but not publicised. In the 7:30 report it did suggest they were still locating cultural sites.
     
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  29. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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  30. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    My head is doing a mild explosion at the moment. Climbers' rights to climb override the long term locals' rights to have their heritage protected. Why?
     
  31. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    There'd be thousands.

    I spent a few years working in telco's in regional areas, visiting proposed sites with archeologists and community. My arch mate had one site visit in five years with no artefacts found at all. Artefacts are everywhere. Everywhere. artworks and other material evidence is also all over the place.
     
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  32. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Summiting is the easy part!
     
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  33. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think climbers are saying that the bans are blanket and not actually related to sites, and that it's hard to work out which areas are about protection and which are caught up in a general lockout, which doesn't seem to apply to commercial users (same or more impact, same use style) and to other user groups.

    But yes, this is where conservationist/recreatiolanlists and indigenous issues come into conflict and misunderstanding.
     
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  34. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    +1 finds artefacts all the time, so much so that the kids are over it now and just roll their eyes.

    I guess this was my point, we simply may not be aware of sensitive sites as they may not be public.
     
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  35. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Then climbers have to do the work and stop adopting a - what's your word - "blanket" approach. Stop whinging, start talking and find a way to control the rogues.
     
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  36. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    There is certainly a double standard where licensed commercial operators are allowed to climb in the Special Protected Areas and recreational climbers are not because of cultural impacts.
    If it’s a cultural impact quarantine, then it’s that and shouldn’t be bought access.
     
  37. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Why? Perhaps licensed commercial operators have to demonstrate cultural sensitivity, and face revocation of their licences if they don't.
     
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  38. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes

    Always an interesting thing to do in a low participation, disorganised, disparate activity.

    They make surfers look like a well organised group with a national heirachy.
     
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  39. Seth

    Seth Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Talbot seemed like a sleezy operator.

    Way to flippant about lying.
     
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  40. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    No. They just go climb the same stuff. In larger groups.

    The rumour mill is that one of the main offenders for poor bolting is a commercial operator who still has access. I don’t know the extent to which that is true, if at all.
     
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  41. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    That doesn't necessarily follow. If they're using existing routes, then the only practical difference is that they are paying for access. Being a commercial operator doesn't mean being culturally sensitive.

    Treating people participating in the same activity as a single, homogeneous group isn't a good policy approach - and this has been demonstrated here where they are allowing a pay to play approach to the park in general.
     
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  42. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Do it or face more restrictions. It's your problem, not the rangers. Solve it or STFU.
     
  43. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Dob. Next problem. There is no fairy that will work this out for you. You are the fairies.
     
  44. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Years ago PV should have consulted the Indigenous folks and said - could you identify existing known sites so that we can work together to protect those areas as necessary--- and can we assist in searching for potential new previously unidentified sites. Climbers are not stupid. Many of those Vicco climbers are very well educated folks. They have been fully aware that this was not happening but ignored the fact that they had an obligation to be more proactive in establishing a collaborative approach. Why did you lot not consult the Minister for Sport and Recreation years ago ?
     
  45. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    enough of those god damed smoking ceremonies....the little bears have sensitive eyes ....less smoke please ...stop burning gum leaves !:whistle:...
    Suggest folk use drier firewood when stoking the fires!
     
  46. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes, totally agree.
    PV turning the blind eye has come around to bite them on the bum.
    However it has been a 2 way street with climbers being complicit in doing what we do because no one stopped us even though it was not environmentally and culturally correct.
    Heads in the sand, now looking up in naive amazement about to get decapitated by the land managers.
     
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  47. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Pandora’s box has been well and truly opened!
     
  48. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Jesus. PV have not been "bitten on the bum". Climbers have been. You could have stopped yourselves. You didn't.
     
  49. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Indigenous heritage has done a few people over out my way. There is absolutely no way doing the right thing and reporting finds does you any favours - quite the opposite - it will cost you time and money and it achieves nothing from a preservation pint of view.

    Most annoyingly any heritage items you find need to be put back under the ground out of sight again. Its really bloody stupid. The heritage items that need to be protected need to be hidden so that noone knows they exist again. WTF?

    Then there are the rocks that are natural, that the elder will tell you were carried there. A bit frustrating when the geologist gets told the rock is an artifact because its out of place (must have been carried there) knows then damn things are there due to natural processes.
     
  50. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I appreciate that every religion has its cultural sites, some are really special and only open to believers like the Sikh's Golden Temple and the Jew's Wailing Wall. But every religion also has run of the mill religious sites like temples, churches and mosques where religious rituals are performed, but the sites themselves are not super special and over time, they can be deconsecrated and used for other purposes.

    What confuses me about aboriginal religious sites is that it's not clear which are the extra special ones and which are the ordinary sites that aren't a big deal. Or should all indigenous places to be treated with the same respect as The Kaaba at Mecca? Personally I have no trouble respecting any religions super special sites, but do we also have to honour more ordinary and mundane aboriginal religious places?
     
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