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pattern based skis

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Boodwah, Apr 13, 2011.

  1. Boodwah

    Boodwah One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    #1 Boodwah, Apr 13, 2011
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  2. Graeme

    Graeme First Runs Endless Winter

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    Is that the rebranded Karhu Guide? Not that I have skied that anyway
     
  3. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes and yes, I love mine using tele and so does +1 using AT.
    I ski mine MR and general touring a la Jagungal etc.They are only just acceptable as a resort option.
    They climb well on moderate slopes and accept skins for steep ascents.
    Having said all that, I've got a pair of Rossi BC 125's to play with this year also
    PS: and the original bevel problem with the edges has apparently been fixed so edging on ice is no longer an issue
     
    #3 Untele-whippet, Apr 13, 2011
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  4. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    remind me T-W of how the problem is fixed? mine ski downhill really badly on ice, my only complaint, cheers. Maybe its not them, its me.
     
  5. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    If you troll through here mr, http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=61402&highlight=karhu+guide+edge+bevel you will find the answer to your question is. Page 3 & 4 have good DIY pix.
    The Madshus Annum has no edge issues apparently, as do the later versions of the Guide
     
    #5 Untele-whippet, Apr 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  6. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'll be interested in hearing a report on these when you get on em! [​IMG]
     
    #6 piolet, Apr 13, 2011
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  7. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    ah, that might explain why I've been happy enough with mine on ice.....I was fairly sure it wasn't due to any skill on my part!
     
    #7 GS, Apr 14, 2011
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  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Bevel issue aside, I did a couple of days on Guides last season. Normally ski Boundless.

    I call them the Hummers of pattern-based skis.

    Good for climbing and softer snow. Glide not exactly brilliant, as you would expect. Turning on packed snow was OK.

    All up, IMO the Boundless take more effort but provide more rewards in terms of touring and XCD performance esp. in spring conditions.
     
  9. Boodwah

    Boodwah One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Rossi BCs looking mighty interesting for $180 REI. If I buy another set of skis will be heading for divorce...
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Tell her you won 'em in a comp ;-}
     
    Chaeron likes this.
  11. satanas

    satanas Addicted

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    Thank you for saying that Ziggy. I've been happy with the Boundless but had been wondering about the Guidum. Now I can forget about it!
     
    #11 satanas, Apr 15, 2011
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  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    A follow-up ...

    Got the Guides out for a tune and check of the edge bevel and yep, along the pattern section they're bevelled well down to the edge. Tip and tail sections are fine. No wonder they don't edge well on ice.
     
  13. telenomore

    telenomore One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Lazy afternoon on the sofa but thought I have to chime in here. Cant agree with you Ziggy re the comparison between Boundless and Karhu Guide (now Annum I believe). I have skied both of these skis extensively in all conditions. The guide is a superior XCD ski in all conditions IME, not just the easy spring snow conditions. It excels in any sort of new snow conditions (dare I say it, powder) and punches through crud very well. I believe the reason for this is the initiation phase as a result of the extra sidecut and torsional rigidity. Now I reckon the guides are a little stiffer than the boundless and this is what actually helps. A ski can be both too soft and too stiff and I reckon the guides are just right. As for touring, well, not a lot of difference although I really like the grip on the Karhu's and yes, a little slower, but hey, that is what glide wax is for. Each skier has to work out there own vector of features and go from there so what suits me may not suit everyone. If I am off for a fast tour, I have gone back to long thin 210 skis that really kick and glide. If on the high peaks for a day, or a back pack tour, then I cant go past the guides and my Boundless are gathering dust in the shed.
     
  14. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    The Annums and Epochs are expected to be really popular this year. I'd ordered some as my first foray into BC gear, and my order was confirmed. The distributor mentioned that other retailers were short and couldn't get the supply they wanted. As I've just slightly over committed myself this winter, I told him to let the other retailers have mine, but those other retailers are still looking for more in anticipation that they'll sell well.
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    telenomore, yes I agree with you; some skis you make friends with and others you don't.

    I haven't really given the Guides enough of a workout in all conditions. Mine have the dodgy base bevel and like others I have found they're poor at edging on ice. Add to that the width, sidecut, +ve base pattern, and they remain my 2nd choice of ski for spring conditions. I'll give them more of a run this season in fresh snow in day and overnight tour mode and decide whether to sell them or not. I only bought them for NZ BC conditions and that prospect is receding.

    Coincidentally I'm dusting off my narrow metal edge skis with NNN-BC bindings for quick fangs on firm snow. -ve base pattern, not much sidecut ... I can skate on the bleeders ;-}
     
  16. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    #16 climberman, Aug 28, 2012
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  17. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Look forward to damian reporting back on his resort day yesterday on his Vectors [​IMG]
     
    #17 CarveMan, Aug 28, 2012
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  18. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    whacking on the guides after the world pistes the other day in the resort just reminded me how slow a pattern base is (almost exactly same shape and dims). I reckon the guides are a great spring corn tourer / bomber though, but suffer on ice and heavy slop. I'd expect the boundless to be faster as they have a negative base, i believe.
     
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Add Fischer S-bound series.

    112 has similar specs to the Annum/Guide and was benchmarked against it when designed and tested.
     
  20. MrPoopypants

    MrPoopypants Hard Yards

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    I was on the bc125 thread. Bought both the annums and bc125s. The annum has a noisier more aggressive pattern, better for climbing but thet still carve through crud. Bit more effort needed on the transitions. Definitely slower on the glide than the bc125s. Annums with some pattern ground off would be pretty schmick.

    The bc125 are wayyy fatter and less aggressive pattern. But they ski reaaally nice. Very easy through everything. The width underfoot matches my width overfoot nicely!

    Got the annums from mountaingear and the bc125s from ors cross country. Haven't bought patterns for over 20yrs, so lashed out on both when I saw the price. Maybe I just got too excited?? :) nahhhh - boys neeeeeeeeed toys.
    G
     
  21. Ian

    Ian Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well, that explains things!

    I wear Garmont Excursions which suit 90% of my skiing.
    My 5 yr old 180cm Atomic Chugach cracked an edge and a bit of the edge behind the right heel pulled out on day 2 at my Charlottes practice week this year. I had to ski The Bride's 175 Guides there and on Bogong. Virtually no edge grip on ice! I gave the edges a lick over with a smooth file with a 1deg spacer, before Bogong and it improved edgeing a bit but, nowhere as good as my old Atomics. Climbing up Eskdale at the steep bit at the top I had to ditch them for crampons.

    My mates have all bought Epochs and really like them, they say they are very light weight. I haven't tried them. I will say the Guides are very much slower on tour, not sure if it's more the length or the alpine flex. I note the Annums are exactly the same top, middle & tail width.

    I find in soft snow the short length turns too tight for my level of fitness. They really do turn sharply making them great in the trees.
     
  22. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ian, expect you checked this but there was a batch of Guides that had a cocked up base bevel angle (c. 15 degrees). So those need some serious work. Mine were like that and my impression was like yours before the job was done.

    Re Annums/Guides v S-bound 112 I'm being forced to revise my view on glide. In principle given the +ve pattern on the former they should glide slower cp the 'slightly +ve pattern' on the S-bounds. But side by side with another skier over about 10kms of mildly rolling ground and med to firm snow they didn't. Not controlling for fitness, technique or weight however.
     
  23. BerKo

    BerKo Hard Yards

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    Hmmm I'm starting to wonder about the benefits of these pattern based skis. I seem to need skins on my annums to get up anything more than a slight hill really. I seem to remember people saying that these could be used on pretty decent gradient hills. I've tried in fresh snow, icey snow and slush and each time had the same results really. Now I'm starting to wonder if the pastern base is worth is, or are you better with non-pattern and skins.

    Any tips which I may need to know about?
     
  24. MrPoopypants

    MrPoopypants Hard Yards

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    I'm thinking the same way BerKo

    They are ideal with the kids etc but if I'm heading across the snowy & upwards I'd use kickers. The patterns on my annums and bc125s really are just for getting about. I've used kickers for a long time and putting them on or taking off with skis on is too easy.
    I keep thinking the bc125s would be a good ski with no pattern. Nice & light.

    G
     
  25. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    i think it comes down to whether youre a gully bomber or a plateau hopper, and if youre both, well you may need both....at different times

    ive got pattern bases for my bc skis, but for climbing out of a big gully (now that i can sort of ski them) i'd rather some skins, and the speed and weight of a heavier ski without a pattern base. Skins are annoying on upsy downsys particularly with a big pack and a pattern base will always travel faster.

    one of my guides weighs as much as two of my outtabounds (a double camber s-bound ski), and one of my world pistes weighs as much as two of my guides. one of my garmot energy's weighs as much as both my garmont excusrions

    i think now the one bc + resort ski-boot quiver is probably ambitious

    We need some kind of flip up, flip down pattern base. preferably from titanium. its probably been done
     
  26. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    yeah, or just try to get away with kickers as per mr poopypants
     
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    There's more than one pattern base type and obviously a wide range of snow types. Technique also comes into it (most PB skiers I see touring are just walking, not skiing). Finally gradient.

    Plenty of variables that interact.

    Kickers can improve grip in some snow types and I found them helpful on hardpack and marginally helpful on boilerplate on the Kosi shot yesterday. But they were a pox skiing down a pitch of mixed snow types.
     
  28. MrPoopypants

    MrPoopypants Hard Yards

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    Took the bcs out in the blizzard today, up Stilwell for a bit. The pattern struggled a bit in dry light snow. Couldn't keep up at all with the crew on skinny gear. The pattern slipped back pretty much every stride. Could manage it but it certainly was harder work. Probably wouldn't have noticed it as much if I wasn't with other people, I don't mind a dawdle. Serviceable for a trog but not much chop for making mileage. Even for what we did I would stick the kickers on and save time and effort. They were better in damp stuff yesterday but overall I'm not totally sold on the concept. They do turn easily, though.
    The good news is I've confirmed for myself that the bigger the quiver, the better! :)

    I neeeed more skis.

    G.
     
  29. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    What about some analysis ...

    The bigger the base pattern area, the less pressure per square cm all other things equal.

    And you need pressure for grip.

    You can compensate by shortening the stride (keeps weight over the grip section), and/or by deliberately weighting and pushing off from the 'engaged' ski. Avoid leaning forward (moves weight forward, away from the pattern section. As an aside, when gliding downhill, you will go faster if you lean back putting more weight on the tails away from the patterned section).

    ...

    Yeah, you can get more skis, and I have one winter and one spring touring ski, as well as a resort tele ski. Trouble is you often don't know what you're going to encounter BC.
     
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  30. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Skis are a compromise, like life.
    The Rossi BC 125's pattern base are great on a low to mild grade uphills and then you can use skins (kicker or full length)
    They rock on the downhill.
    They're great on undulating approaches when skins are soooo boring.
    Like anything its best not to compare oranges and lemons.
    They're really great at breaking trail in deep snow where slimmer skis submarine.
    Try tele skiing a day at a resort only with friends on alpine gear (like lapping top to bottom at Thredbo) and you'll realise that tele isn't that efficient.

     
  31. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yup; all a matter of what kind of trade-offs you can live with.

    Trouble for newbies is that now there a quite a few choices of PB skis so getting the info on them and anticipating the uses isn't easy.

    When I started you could have your choice as long as it was black*.

    Hook up with mates or join a club and borrow/hire various skis to see which you like.

    ...

    * actually, way back there seemed to be more variation in bindings, before the Alpine/freeheel split. In the Thredbo ski museum there were some examples of some very 'active' cable bindings, with the pivot point maybe aligned with the front of the boot heel section. Perhaps compensating for the slop everywhere else!
     
  32. BerKo

    BerKo Hard Yards

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    yeah would be good to try before you buy... or just go a cheap option knowing you'll upgrade one day in the not too distant future.

    I've learnt quite a lot this season so far.... including when to stop when trying to ski back to civilization. Few scratches in new skis add to the BC cred right?
     
  33. bluestick

    bluestick One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    just to throw another option in what about grip waxes? I appreciate they are a pain in variable snow conditions and if you get it wrong it can be an issue but they can provide a good option if you have skins and are prepared to clean your base.....are grip waxes becoming a lost part of touring? arrrhhhh those fond memories of red klister and huge balls of snow when you hit a dry bit of snow ...perfect when you get it right though .....particularly for rolling flatish terrain....I do like the guides/annums great grip and easy turning .....
     
  34. weerab

    weerab One of Us

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    I was at Falls a couple of weeks ago and thought the snow was fantastic and dry. I kept skiing past these Russki skiers who must have been training for the Hoppet. The guys just kind of glared when I looked at them but I mentioned to one of the ladies that the snow was just perfect. She replied that it was not good for classic nordic so they must have been using waxes and having trouble because it was very close to 0°C. I said, well, it's bloody good for Australia and carried on. That's why grip waxes are all but useless here.

    PS remember the mica based skis? I skied to Jagungal on a pair of Splitkein mica skis and sent an awful lot of time slipping backwards. I ended up giving the bloody things away! I think they were marginally better than the hire skis I first skied that had mohair strips embedded into them, very slow, great grip though.
     
  35. bluestick

    bluestick One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    the memories ...yellow mica epoch 1000's with heel locators....they needed a lot of glide wax ....and on a pair of karhus i just ripped out the mohair strips and filled it with ptex ... i did a lot of bc pack carrying touring in aus using kazama mountain highs, skins and grip waxes ...the waxes were an issue ... the around 0 deg conditions make it v.hard in aus but at least you had a bit of a discussion point when you bumped into other masochists using waxes ....swix universal klister / special red what are you on?
     
  36. Ian

    Ian Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ziggy,

    I read the base issue on this thread. I don't think mine are anywhere near 15 degrees but they certainly don't have the same side grip in ice as my Atomics. I thought it was the wider underfoot width 69mm vs 78mm.

    Pattern bases are great in undulating terrain, no good on ice. I have half skins for yo-yoing steeper bits.

    I have told The Bride I need to replace the 'touring skis' and will need another waxless pair for the resort so I can 'keep up with the kids';

    2 nanoseconds later "Yeah sure, just buy another pair of skis..."
     
  37. telenomore

    telenomore One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    yes bluestick the memories. I once hired some skis from Robbie Kilpinen (who once built a sauna at Greymare and wintered over, as well as held the K to K record for many years) He ran a small XC ski shop in Canberra for a while in the late 70's early 80's and I hired some Kuusisto Neverwax skis. Should have been called nevergrip! I was out Greymare way with some mates and got frustrated with the lack of grip so I waxed them up (we always carried kick waxes in those days). Robbie was not impressed when I bought them back as he had a job to remove the wax from the ski base. He was a nice guy though and his anger didn't last long.
     
    #37 telenomore, Aug 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2013
  38. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Good result Ian!

    Well, I was herringboning boilerplate on Tues with the Guides with no more trouble than the Boundless would have posed. That may be down to the quality of the ski tech's tuning work or to the beefy boots I use or to sheer bloody-minded hacking (as a slide would have been ugly).

    Frankly I don't know how you could measure say a one degree base and one degree side bevel (to pick a figure); presumably techs just set up their jigs and file to the desired bevel angle regardless.

    Yes, I've started carrying kickers with the PB skis as well.
     
    #38 Ziggy, Aug 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2013
  39. sillyoldfool

    sillyoldfool Hard Yards

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    Ziggy

    How those bindings worked:

    In about '59 or '60 I was allowed to climb Back Perisher with the fathers - pre-war skiers, all of them - and when it came time to ski down, the snow being heavy spring slush, they all took the cables out of those rear guides ( the ones under the heel) but leaving it still through the forward guides under the kandahar binding, then telemarked down the face. They were all very good parallel skiers, and I had never seen them telemark before. It was the coolest thing I had ever seen.

    My own descent was terrified -survival.
     
  40. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thanks for the history SOF.

    Yeah, thinking about it the rearmost cable guides wouldn't have allowed much knee-bending.

    The museum also had on display something like a modern plate binding only at the toe end of the plate was a cylinder and at a guess that had a coil spring in it.

    (Nothing wrong with survival skiing, then or now!)
     
  41. HazBeen

    HazBeen First Runs

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    Enjoying reading the comments about old waxless ski types.
    Those mohair strips kind of worked Weerab; but they also would fall off and ice up! We had them in the ski hire/ski school I worked at and replaced them because we got tired of replacing the strips.
    My first 'touring' skis were the XCD GT's and they had a shocking 'hooked' edge beside the grip section: took a lot of filing to make them hold an edge on ice and yet allow the skis to initiate a turn easily. Bought a pair of 10th Mtns last year - even though I knew they had the same problem. You would think after 25 years Karhu would have fixed their edges!
    However, really like the 10th Mtns for touring/turning. But have the feeling the Madshus would be a better ski purely because they have a negative base pattern that should glide better but looks like it would still grip well. Might even buy a pair of the wide one's to create a 'quiver' for the backcountry.
     
  42. weerab

    weerab One of Us

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    I still have XCD GT's and never really noticed the hooked edges perhaps because my technique was so bad it didn't matter! Another poster, Ziggy, has had serious edge probs with his Karhu Guides. I have been upgrading my gear over the last couple of years and am now very happy with Fischer SBound 112s, Voile Switchbacks and Garmont excursion boots. I have skied about 12 days over the last six weeks but feel that it is not enough. I mean six weeks, bloody hell!

    I think my present setup is a pretty good compromise unless you are into serious telemarking or skiing Lake Mountain.
     
  43. HazBeen

    HazBeen First Runs

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    Well Weerab, I reckon whatever is fun is the best compromise! I had years of being a backcountry tourer then got sucked into being a resort based powderhound freeheeler. Then three years ago got back into touring/turning on 'compromise gear' and realised I had forgotten how much I enjoy it. Bought 10th Mtns/Scarpa T4's. Went up Stirling with a friend for the first time in 25 years last winter - not one other person up top and we skied ankle deep powder in Stanley Bowl all day.
     
  44. Little Tiger

    Little Tiger A Local

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    There are little electric gadgets that measure base bevel accurately - but they are exxy I believe. Most shops do not have them...

    AIUI most folks use the marker pen method...
     
    #44 Little Tiger, Sep 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2013
  45. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah. I do that with some woodwork tool cutting edges too.

    But it just tells you you're taking metal off. Need other stuff to guarantee the angle is correct.
     
  46. Little Tiger

    Little Tiger A Local

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    Yeah - but like I said those tools are exxy... I believe very precise - but exxy!

    The guy who does ours does WC skis - so he can justify the purchase... lots of skis that matter... first one we had seen... we asked him where you get them and how much and he laughed and told us to let him do them!
     
  47. timbat

    timbat Hard Yards

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    Headed out again on my Rossi BC125s yesterday. The brown rain affected snow/ice was very bad for grip but on the fresh snow from Friday they gripped great. I'm loving the freedom of not taking skis off to go for a wander. Overall I'm really happy with the skis .... in resort they definitely go faster on unskied snow than on the groomed and cut up stuff.
     
  48. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    i take it its a positive pattern timbat? ski looks nice but my guides are starting to feel slow (maybe im getting faster?) and wondered if these be slower
     
  49. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    #49 Untele-whippet, Oct 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2013
  50. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    What a monster.

    What's folks' views about the optimal underfoot width for Aussie conditions?

    I've been skiing 69mm during springtime and 78mm in softer winter snow. That's at the kind of touring altitudes the BHP offers. Usually firm or packed or icy - not knee deep in 'powder' nor big lines.

    Reading this forum for some time it seems to me that NSWelshpersons have taken more readily to wider skis than we Mehicans. (Not exactly a random sample to be sure.)

    Just down to differing snow conditions or are there more gear sluts north of the border?