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pattern based skis

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Boodwah, Apr 13, 2011.

  1. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    Fascinating - I have been avidly reading:

    https://markoates.exposure.co/aawt-winter-gear?more=true

    I am not sure how big these chaps are - and I have probably bumped into them! but they both chose short Voile Objective skis
    for their AAWT 'thru-hike' carrying packs at 164/171 each. The Voile Objective BC worked for them and they even used Dynafit tech with toes locked in and didn't even bother with the heels. [They are tele skiers]. [They indicate that they have since stripped the heel block off the ski leaving the plate and riser bar.] One had issues with his speed turns heels, but I am now wondering whether to go for Speed turns and not the larger model Radical 2.0s or whatever they are called now.

    *It tells me that I am probably skiing too long - and with my preferences I will gladly never go longer than a 165.
    I am skiing a 170 at 165 tall, 67kg or so and I would prefer a shorter ski to turn.
     
  2. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I would have said this was a very specific and thought through application. In this instance the skis were tools to do a specific job compared to going for a ski for fun.

    The binding choice seems risky to me, it's an interesting ski to tele ski with just the pins, yes I have tried it.
     
  3. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    Yes these blokes are advanced. Anecdotally, lots of people ski short sections with AT heels not locked in (rolling presumably). But their usage was striding through various tough wooded terrain at the start of the trip - but it also did them for the Bogong High Plains and top of the roof at Kosi -that's the thing!
     
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  4. slotele

    slotele Addicted

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  5. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    It came up somewhere in one of these recent threads - might even be worth a sticky!

    Well, I have been skiing lengths longer than me all my life (even as a beginner I was handed a 160? from memory).
    If truth be told, when conditions get icy and I am tired, I yearn for a shorter ski. It was a revelation therefore to see one of the brothers ski particularly short - even using approach skis for the Crosscut (seperate story).
     
  6. slotele

    slotele Addicted

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    oops, deleted that post, sorry, just not me to be pushing an opinion. Everyone finds what works for what they want to do. It's the journey that keeps me interested.
     
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  7. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    no problem, it's general knowledge: most advanced skiers, with packs, are advised to go long, let's face it. It's pretty much base knowledge. It's when you are headed downhill that things change...and modern downhill skiers on modern skis are definitely going shorter by a significant factor - but I put this down to 'tech' and very fat skis.
     
  8. satanas

    satanas Addicted

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    There has been a fair bit of noise made over the years by some people that one should have longer skis with a pack, but IMHO it's basically a crock. Think about it. When you have an overnight pack, does skiing downhill and turning become magically easier? Not for me, and the trees don't get closer together either. I'd argue that things are better with a shorter, more manoeuvrable ski, but yes it does need to have enough surface area and be stiff enough to hold an edge. A lot of the long ski thing is IMHO macho BS; when I worked at Perisher in the 80s none of the instructors would ski on anything shorter than 200cm, and most were on 203 or 205, apart from one very small woman on 195cm. We don't have bottomless powder here, so maximising surface area is usually irrelevant.

    The last few seasons I've been on the Vector BCs almost exclusively for non-track use, and they've coped remarkably well with just about everything. They diagonal stride okay, float well enough in everything except the deepest, heaviest snow or nastiest crust, they hold an edge acceptably provided it's not rock solid and are very predictable and forgiving; it's easy to exit a turn partway through, or vary the radius. (FWIW, I have the white and green ones pictured a little earlier, which are straighter than the current ones.)

    No, they're not ideal on ice - what is? - but they're not scary either, and on anything soft or crusty they're infinitely more pleasant than S-Bound 98s, or Annums (which feel very dead and planky IME).

    For a largely flat trip on old or firm snow I might be tempted to get out the BC boots and S-Bound 78s, but most of the time the extra stability and control helps, and there's not much weight penalty with light AT boots and bindings.
     
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    If the focus is touring you want a cambered ski with enough flex to allow glide. Ski length may be a proxy but only if you know the ski construction.
    The V6 and I believe the Vector are from this point of view not touring skis.
    Voile advise choice of length according to your weight. Madshus according to height (height could be a proxy for weight in countries without an obesity problem.)
    There's other factors that affect glide like the pattern, the snowpack and technique. If the skier is content to walk, ski length doesn't matter.
     
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  10. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    hmmm..I note I accidentally found the wrong thread to post my response to - resurrecting an old thread !!

    Thanks everyone. Ziggy - the 2 brothers state they prefer to ski lengths under their weight. With a pack I could almost go to a 175 in some skis - but that would be ridiculous for the turn.I once got given a 175 and I had zero control. Does Madshus really base it on height?
     
  11. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hi Santanas - since I’m on the research & test phase this winter I’m trying to absorb and remember(?) As much info as possible from this thread.

    May I ask you a couple Questions please (as the Vector BCs are probably the best proxy for the UV BC)

    You mentioned Vectors ‘diagonal stride OK’. Do you feel like they sap your energy and struggle to glide on the flat or gentle downs (talking light day pack not big overnight) - perhaps have to Spent wax Tip and tails more often. Do you have other recent pattern based skis to compare with?

    I assume from your comments you head above the treelike a lot (NSW?) Do you ever get down into the tree line on to something resembling a trail? Will they track OK along the firmer, narrow areas near Perisher or do they squirrel? (I’d guess that’s where Annums etc shine).

    FWIW as a reference, my only pattern-based skis are quite narrow old, Straight Morotto Tele steps (200 for my 190cm).

    I have some various smooth Tele skis With kicker & now a full skin but they/I struggle a bit on undulating.

    All good fun!
     
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  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    The feel of all these is very different. If you're buying the best thing you can do for yourself is borrow or hire, preferably several at the same time so you can appreciate the variation.

    People's technique is different too. Some don't try kick 'n glide at all. Without controlling for this comparison is pointless.

    Satanas mentioned packs. Absolutely. Add 18 kg to your weight and a lot of things change. Here as with all performance aspects it's a matter of settling on the trade-offs you can live with.
     
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  13. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I find the wider the ski, the more the pattern drags. IMO it gets to a point where the benefit is outweighed, and you might as well go full skins on normal.

    So far as length, weight also makes them drag more, so longer = faster for the weight. Mind you, that also has an effect on climbing.

    Ive skied lengths from 160-185 in modern skis (up to 215 on old) and 180 is my happy place. Which is taller than me, but I am heavy for my height.
     
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  14. telenomore

    telenomore One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    All depends on your aims. Kick and glide is the key to enjoying multi day, pack animal, backcountry touring IMO. For this, you need to take into account the old concept of "double camber". If your aim is to tour with a heavy pack, say out Jagungal or Greymare way, I go for a longer double camber kick pattern ski. For me, nothing more frustrating than the friction from 'dragging' your kick section constantly. For others, shorter means more control and that is a personal choice. The other option for multi day touring is a sled. Take the weight of your back (and therefore your skis), allowing for a shorter ski, with less "drag" on the kick section due to reduced weight over the skis. One size does not fit all.
     
  15. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Cheers some good feedback. I sense my pack days over unless I decide to go solo (I do at Stirling, and SC Hoth/Falls but just one dayers). ATM my Morottos are probably still my best pack option. They do glide well even with 110kg plus big daypack.

    Sleds? A slight digression.
    Way back in 1991 some friends ‘found’ / bought sleds and towed to near Club Lake. My then GF (now wife) lead the way with packs. Sleds look interesting when contouring.

    We helped our mates by taking one sled back to Charlotte Pass for pm Oversnow. The last climb was fun but it was crazy trying to the sled down to the village (Myself & two Less exp grills). Let’s Just say the OS never seemed so luxurious! :confused::p:rolleyes::whistle:
     
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  16. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    What I've learnt is that you have to get on and deal with it. It's like dealing with blisters - and stopping to remove /replace half your wardrobe - you deal with it. My Vectors BC climb to the top of Stirling with only a bit of side-stepping needed near the top. Better than Annums, from memory. I did it twice in 1 year with the different ski. The Vectors BC ski down inbounds - its only on steeper icy bits I feel the length of the ski resisting me. With a pack, I am always shortening my slide anyhow, and they are fine here.

    Forums are great places to hang out and angonise about ski sizes though! ;-) If money was no object we would all have multiple sets of skis and there would be a lot less posts on the matter!
     
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  17. seak

    seak One of Us

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    I also sense my pack days may be over due to herniated hidden calf muscle (or blood vessel various specialists now say), unless I go solo (at my own pace).
    Mate insisted on using a hired sled from PP Jindy for Blue Lake multi-day ice-climbing. It turned over a few times en-route to Seamans. It was night-time, and words were terse. Days later... snow-plowing down into CP, 'The Thing' was in front of me, off to one side. OS was luxurious.
     
  18. telenomore

    telenomore One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I think there was some mention of sled set ups in another thread recently. I started with ropes in my sled pulling career but changed to fixed poles very quickly (except for a Denali expedition where we used ropes between two climbers). Route selection is also critical but with care (and some unplanned learning experiences!) they work well. Toboggans to be avoided as too narrow so easy to roll. Well designed sleds are best, they tend to be wide and low. Back to the topic.
     
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  19. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Silver

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    I bought some Madshus Epochs brand new in 2017 from EMC ski centre here in Melbourne and the body weight of the skier is the deciding factor regarding the length of the right ski for the skier will be. I weigh between 93-95 kg.s and am 188 Cm tall. The Epochs I have are 185 cms long.
     
  20. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    ..you ski a length shorter than yourself and I'd say you are pretty beefy / athletic - some might say you are too big for the ski...however as you start to turn more...
     
  21. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Silver

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    With double camber PB XC skis the body weight determines how well the skis spring and alternately grip thus maximizing the kick and glide in classic diagonal stride for BC XC ski touring. They are slightly heavier and slower to ski on than my other 3 pairs of PB skis but they are very stable for Stem Christie turns and other basic techniques that I employ in all conditions.
     
  22. satanas

    satanas Addicted

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    The Vectors aren't as fast as a lighter, more cambered ski on easy terrain, but kick and glide is very efficient with a free-pivot tech binding and light boot with good ROM. Certainly better than say S-Bound 98/Boundless + Voile Switchback + T4 or similar; with tele the boots are what hold you back. If you have vaguely decent classical technique and glide wax you'll be much faster (and more efficient) than those without. S-Bound 112s are perhaps faster than the Vectors; I haven't liked Annums at all compared with the Vectors or Fischers (for speed, turning, feel, or anything else), but YMMV. As for straight line stability, a lot of that comes down to technique, irrespective of what ski you may be on.

    Having said that, in firmish conditions a lighter ski with proper double camber and a BC boot and binding will be faster. IME it's well worth glide waxing all skis frequently, no matter what sort.

    The Vectors have seen a fair bit of use at Perisher (where the pattern was useful at times, but annoying at others - like cat tracks), and on the Main Range. I wouldn't try to use them for track skiing(!!!), or indeed anything wider than about 70mm at the tip maximum, or with steel edges, or plastic boots. Yes, it can be done, sort of, but wider skis don't fit into the tracks, and things are unnecessarily clunky and slow, plus you get in the way of other skiers. Proper track skis are much, much more pleasant there, and all the different ski techniques help each other IME.

    I wouldn't normally use skins on flat or rolling terrain if pattern bases were an option, but skins can be very useful on climbs, or very occasionally on flattish terrain if there's been a super hard freeze, plus a headwind.

    If possible, either borrow or demo skis; you'll learn more in 50-100m than from any amount of reading. I find it's very easy to tell if skis feel either really good or really bad.
     
  23. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Cheers for your notes Santanas. Fully get the narrow trail caveats. I’m actually OK, I think? For narrow, mellow? ViC trails with my Morottos. They still do the job and can take a solid 75 mm boot like My Excursions.

    But it’s the breakout ski - the one that lets you get to the top of Stirling ‘acceptably’ (Or side country near resorts) and then turns fairly easily on a variety of terrain/conditions. Without relying on plodding up 100% on skins. Morottos (Trail skis) don’t do that role well.

    On a brighter note, we might have some skiable snow from ~ Monday 2 June? With luck I could be getting a test Stirling day QB WE?
     
  24. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    This may be flippant advice but it does seem overall, that people really rate the Vectors (and in some cases, over say the Annum). They are a favoured ski. I like mine, and don't feel I made a mistake in acquiring the older model.

    Annums and Vectors got me to the top of Mt Stirling without skins. They both break through fresh snow and float.
     
  25. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not flippant at all pS! Stirling is a great test mtn for us Vics before going to ‘play with the big boys’ on the their big hills further afield.

    I reckon there’s at least three ‘touring-sub groups of thought’ in this and related threads.

    Those that generally prefer to tour on:
    1) skinny, generally dbl cambered skis, need speed on flats, less worried about turns and float; (ie. Eons)
    2) fatter, single cambered PB skis, less into speed on flat, more into turns & steeps; (ie. UV BC, BC125);
    3) Even fatter waxable, single cambered skis, Even more into turns, steeps, skate flat, (ie; V6, DPS Tour);
    3.2) or 4)? Is the AT variant of 3). Were more gung ho than 3) but increasingly mellow too (BCrow/DPS)
    Often favoured by former lift jockeys but increasingly by those seeking a lighter touring set.

    I note that many of us here wear many of the above hats from time to time. Variety is the Spice....
    The skater could be type 0). More common on the Lake Mtn thread?

    Feel free to disagree. (;-)

    All good (again) - see some of you on Stirling once Upper cover heads > 40cm?
     
  26. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Silver

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    yes!
     
  27. satanas

    satanas Addicted

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    I probably fit into categories 0-4 then, but classical track skiing was omitted, maybe 0.666? The boundaries are blurry anyway. ;-)
     
  28. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes it’s more touring than track but 1) could be a proxy for Classic track.

    Maybe this system could help skiers inform sales staff as to uses / types they are: ie 2/3 50:50 etc...?

    It’s quite different to skill grade. Maybe quote both when appropriate?
     
  29. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    @snowgum goods arrived. Will have to wait until next year for my own distance devouring machine.

     
  30. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Voile says their BC patterns are all 70cm long. In my book they're also aggressive. With say 90-100mm under foot that's a lot of pattern. Cp the old Boundless which were negative and 69mm underfoot. My own pattern on my V6s is 60cm long and negative.
     
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  31. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Fabulous (even with Tele eyes!). Mrs FB will be delighted! Look fwd to reports! Excited for you both!

    like a new baby? :D

    Did you this was from Rythm? Wondering if they’ll place that order they were umming about 3 weeks ago? And if so what & when.

    Does that mean you’ve pre ordered with R too? (Sorry trying to remember - a bit crazy WFH last coke days!). :confused:

    Btw; V HQ are out of UV patterns in big sizes too. Seems short people ski rates are generally overestimated, while & heavy are under? :rolleyes:
     
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  32. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Damn that was CPL of days note coke! Rarely drink Coke - lots offer though! :eek: LOL
     
  33. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Indeed, have measured and is 70cm long. Remember, intent is to reduce skins on / skins off to allow more ground to be covered. Skins and ski crampons will still be carried, but particularly when skiing with +0.95 (Mk III) it is more mellow lines on the up and the down.
     
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  34. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    @snowgum Ordered from Rhytm (from stock on) Saturday, delivered to Sydney Wednesday. Not a bad service. Might consider a pre-order for mine for next year.
     
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  35. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Lads, Does the fixed 70cm grip length imply that the BC models may slightly gain glide as the length increases?

    Ziggy: do you think hot waxing the extreme 5 cm + of the top/tail of the grip pattern would do much?
    A Ptex candle would do more but it’s pretty final??
     
  36. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    @snowgum notice the Phantom sticker on the skis. Never need to wax.
     
  37. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I did - sounds like a good idea if it’s as good as the fan-mail suggestS?

    The 164 would feel pretty light at sub 3kg pair? Light binders too!
     
  38. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I don’t suppose I could request a glam (umm) shot of the backs together Pls? for camber sussing?

    A 184 would probably have a tad more too?

    thank you!
     
  39. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Had 2 pairs of skis Phantomed last year, my DPS Wailer 105 & +0.95 (Mk III)'s DPS Nina 99 skis. It has worked brilliantly through two weeks in Oz and two weeks in Europe before the lockdown.
     
  40. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    Bingo mate - the only factor for me is cash. Otherwise I would drop cash on them all in a heartbeat!
     
  41. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    lovely...
     
  42. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Almost a match for her DPS.....

     
  43. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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    Its a giggle - that Voile have, against the 184 model - 64kg and above.
    How the hell is that supposed to help anyone!

    Vectors ski short too, due to rocker.

    Search up a review of the older Vector by a poster here - he was on 170s and thought he needed 180s and he was half your size. I get the fact you probably get a bit nervous of any ski and whether it will have the heft!
     
  44. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    ive still got a pair of the UV BCs 171s for sale in gear swap, no bindings
     
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  45. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki Addicted

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  46. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    If they were even 180 ish. I’d probably pull trigger mr.

    I used to ski 176 Rossi Tele PowderBird on piste - a nice ski with a sort of UV shape - had a cm or so narrower.

    But I wouldn’t go shorter esp off piste / BC. Ta. :thumbs:

    Someone will grab em.
     
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  47. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  48. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
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    vic
    Cheers; yeah funny. I was 64 kg by about 14 and still shaped like a beanpole. :D
     
  49. Chaeron

    Chaeron A Local Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Glen Iris, Melbourne
    Rhythm have the best pricing & service for pbs (patterned-base skis) atm. imo.
     
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  50. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
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    Location:
    In the woods
    And best selection?
     
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