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Snow Report Perisher 2020 Trip Reports, Pics, Updates and Conditions.

Discussion in 'Perisher' started by SMSkier, Jan 5, 2020.

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  1. SMSkier

    SMSkier One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Today 2 years ago........raining up there today.

     
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  2. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    And the day before

    Charlotte Pass turning circle with @Ozgirl remembering Jack :emoji_snowflake:
     
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  3. D-eye

    D-eye Photographer and skier Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Winter challenge, ski towers following the curve of the road :)
     
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  4. hipo

    hipo One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Might have to do a GPS plot for that one....
     
  5. robbo mcs

    robbo mcs One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    That would be a sure way to get cleaned up by all the super quick but technically challenged skiiers and boarders ripping a straight line down the hill;)
     
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  6. Ted Harper

    Ted Harper One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    You’ve just described skiing Towers _every_day_ (other than for the first 20 minutes or so each day) :)
     
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  7. Gumbo

    Gumbo One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Saturday morning 6am
     
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  8. SMSkier

    SMSkier One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Oh Deer.......off the cam this evening.

     
  9. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Stag trip?
     
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  10. Normo

    Normo Mostly Harmless Ski Pass: Gold

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    More Bucks to be on the mountain!
     
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  11. Zimbooo

    Zimbooo One of Us

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    Anyone notice / see the white boy at the back driving? LOLLOL
     
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  12. SMSkier

    SMSkier One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  13. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Pretty cut and dry to me.
    When you sign the release of liability, it clears Perisher of all responsibility of access and more or less says "its not our fault", including getting hit by chairlifts, T bars etc.

    Its unlucky that it was a ski instructor, but they arent perfect, and fall over like everyone else.

    Im suprised a lawyer even took up that case tbh. Feels like it was a loosing battle from the get go
     
  14. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    The tort of negligence disagrees
     
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  15. GlendaN

    GlendaN One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    As I read the case there is a statutory defence which applied as skiing was found to be a dangerous recreational activity and displaced the common law (the tort of negligence as above). Only remedy is to change the statute.
     
  16. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    The judgement is an interesting read for those who have the time :).

    To be read with the full judgement obvi, but I found the comments at para 185 onwards of interest as I'm always wondering how litigation would play out in the case of skiing collisions.

    185
    The harm suffered by the plaintiff resulted from a collision between the plaintiff and another skier, whilst both were engaged in the activity of skiing in areas designated for skiing.

    Adding into the characterisation the fact that the other skier was a ski instructor for the purposes of reducing the probability of such a collision occurring is unnecessary and would be contrary to the approach that I must follow, having regard to that which has emanated from the Court of Appeal in Menz, Singh, Carter and Tapp (subject to the views of McCallum JA in dissent in that most recent decision).

    The fact that the plaintiff was a good skier does not detract from that proposition because it would be obvious to a person in the position of the plaintiff that:
    1. other persons using the slopes might not always be in complete control;
    2. other persons using the slopes might be going too fast for the conditions;
    3. other persons using the slopes might on occasions be distracted and not paying proper attention;
    4. visibility might sometimes be reduced for differing reasons; and
    5. there could be hidden imperfections in the snow which might cause even good skiers to lose control.
    By analogy, it would have been obvious to a reasonable person in the plaintiff’s position that if another skier lost control or was not doing what he or she should be doing on the slopes, a collision might ensue and significant injury might be suffered.

    In my view, it is not permissible or necessary to characterise the risk in the way suggested by the plaintiff. That leaves the more general characterisation and leads to the conclusion that the harm suffered by the plaintiff was a result of the materialisation of an obvious risk of a dangerous recreational activity engaged in by her.

    As such, the defendant has made out its defence to the claim in negligence under s 5L CLA.
     
  17. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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  18. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Something for everyone to be aware of. Get wiped out and you are on your own.

    I ponder that a civil case may be the next move.

    A really bad judgement that appears to judge both as equally negligent due to their mutual but unrelated participation in skiing.
     
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  19. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Crikeys
     
  20. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    She has to pay costs. I doubt she’ll have the financial capacity to take it further. Bloody hell, this makes me :mad: and :cry:
     
  21. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hmmm the age old question, did it really happen that way, or did the court "find" it happened that way :) very different things.
     
  22. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The court appears to have found no fault and ruled "shit happens when skiing".
     
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  23. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I feel like my statement may have come across as being really aggressive.
    Don’t get me wrong. I feel really sorry for the person who was taken out, and I will always stop to help people that have a fall and check they are ok, and if I cause an accident stand my grand until the ski patrol arrive. I’ve been lucky enough to never have an accident when I’ve been skiing, or been taken out badly.
    But I know the risks when I step out on the slopes. Everyone does. If you are in an accident you are on your own. Everyone knows that when you get on a chairlift. There was a court case a few years ago that where a lady was hit by a chairlift on the double or triple and she hurt herself. Nothing happened there either so I don’t really know why it would change
    If we take away the fact that it’s a ski instructor, does it change anything? Do they still sue Perisher? Unlikely right because that’s how getting on the snow works.

    I don’t know the laws well enough, but if you get out on the road, and a driving instructor runs into you, are they going to be responsible for paying your medical fees? I feel like they don’t have to but not 100% sure.


    All that being said, after reading the court, it sounds like the ski instructor was not a really nice person. Maybe if she sues him instead of Perisher?
     
  24. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I just read what this was. Seems fair enough tbh and seems like it could be a fair argument so can now see why she decided to proceed.
     
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  25. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    All good. I was just pointing out that even though Perisher (or any other recreational service provider) will have some blanket exclusion clauses on their tickets, these terms will not contractually excluded you (or any other ticket holder for that matter) from suing for negligence at common law.

    Whether you are successful in obtaining a judgement in your favour is another matter though.

    If you're interested @Jasper Schwarz , have a read of the appeal judgement in
    Perisher Blue Pty Ltd v Nair-Smith [2015] NSWCA 90
     
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  26. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Looked up the case
    Nair-Smith 2013 vs Perisher. They were hit by a closed safety bar and still got nothing. It’s such a sucky, sad and angry line to walk, but these are the Ts and Cs and they are very much written to favour Perisher.
    IMO (and this is very uneducated so take it with a grain of salt) that you would need very very convincing circumstances to get them. Short of being collected by a mountain ops skidoo in broad daylight, I’m not sure what else you could get them for
     
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  27. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Yeah, Had a read.

    If this doesn’t get you money, I seriously don’t know what will.
    This is why I’m doing science.
    Law is too complicated and technical and it’s so hard to keep emotion out of it
     
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  28. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    I reckon this type of scenario would be close:

    [​IMG]
     
  29. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    As if..... :out:
     
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  30. Normo

    Normo Mostly Harmless Ski Pass: Gold

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    :D
     
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  31. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Might be being thick here but
    Are you suggesting that you wouldn’t get any more if you are hit by a skidoo, or that you just won’t ever be hit by a skidoo
     
  32. Townsend

    Townsend One of Us

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    Sorry, but if some instructor in uniform who is skiing so fast that his client cannot see him, doesn’t follow the skiers code and runs into someone below him, and injures her so badly that she should have be compensated $650,000, is basically exonerated in law, then the law is totally unfair.

    I have no legal training but I would have thought an employer has a responsibility to ensure their employees act safely and follow the accepted protocols. If the employee has not had sufficient training to ensure that this happens then the employer should be responsible.
     
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  33. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    There seemed to be weight given to the fact that the instructor was not providing instruction to the poor lady who was injured with regards to the contention around Perisher’s duty of care.

    Edit on re reading the Judge’s rationale is set out at para 223 to 239.
     
    #11733 Sage Oya, Nov 25, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
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  34. GlendaN

    GlendaN One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    At common law the employer would be vicariously liable for their employee and if negligence is found damages may follow depending on various factors. However, in NSW the Civil Liabilities Act 2002 (a NSW Statute) appears to alter the situation to give a statutory defence in section 5L as skiing is a dangerous recreational activity. Statutes can be changed by later statutes (but usually not retrospectively) but there are probably policy reasons for the provision. There could be a different approach in other States. Road accidents are a different category as most states have statutory schemes for compensation. The NDIS is meant to deal with some of this issue.
     
  35. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    By this latest argument both the ski doo and the skier are in a no fault situation.

    The ruling appears to turn the whole hill into one big no due care shit show.

    Might as well take down the Skiers rules signs and any references to give way to downhill skiers because now you can just get cleaned up and told "suck it you bought a ticket get over yourself".
     
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  36. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    But I thought that we all knew that anyway?
    It has always been my impression that if you have an accident, you are on your own, hence my earlier reaction.
     
  37. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Based on this holistic "skiing is dangerous" ruling would the outcome have been different if the skier sued the individual and not the company?

    If so would the company back the employee if they where sued individually?
     
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  38. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    If hit and injured by another you are on your own to sue for injury costs.

    This ruling appears to basically rule that by simply being on the hill there is no responsibility for any duty of care for another by anyone. Skiers code is basically ruled out as superfluous fluff.

    Case by case and case structure not withstanding.

    "Ski instructors" in uniform working and mowing people down is gross negligence.
     
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  39. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Which comes back to my question last night:
    Does the situation change if they weren’t a ski instructor?
    They sue the person not the company right, but Perisher probably jumps in to defend him, or maybe they don’t. I know almost nothing about this.

    My thinking is that you get further that way than by trying to go at Perisher cause I was always under the impression that they are cleared of all responsibility once you get on a chairlift.

    Maybe my expectations are way off, but that has always been my mentality which is why this ruling is not surprising to me.
     
  40. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The zoo is a dangerous place.

    An interesting aside is they make you sign a copy of the Skiers code when you buy a ticket or get employed.

    Window dressing, sharpen your stocks and buy a sumo suit.
     
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  41. Xwing

    Xwing One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    from the cam....

     
  42. Spence

    Spence One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    This also poses the question of what the outcome would be if the injured parties were reversed? i.e. that the instructor needed ongoing medical attention. Would Perisher (or their insurer) be trying to sue the recreational skier for compensation? Does this ruling set a precedent and does that adversely affect employees of Perisher if injured in collisions with recreational skiers in the future?
     
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  43. Jonathan_P

    Jonathan_P One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Now in the SMH

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/per...ate-injured-patron-court-20201124-p56hfu.html

    He noted it was surprising there "has not been any higher authority on the proposition that skiing is a dangerous recreational activity", such as a decision of the NSW Court of Appeal or High Court.

    Justice Cavanagh said when assessing whether there was an "obvious risk" in this case, it was to be framed generally as a risk of collision between skiers, rather than a risk of a competent and experienced skier colliding with an instructor. When the risk was framed in this way, he said the risk was obvious.

    "It would have been obvious to a reasonable person in the plaintiff’s position that if another skier lost control or was not doing what he or she should be doing on the slopes, a collision might ensue and significant injury might be suffered," he said.
     
  44. Jasper Schwarz

    Jasper Schwarz One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I think the long and the short of it is that sking is considered a high risk activity and that Perisher is not reliable for any damages because it is considered a high risk activity. In other words, if you have an accident, don't expect any money from them, regardless of whether or not they "were at fault" or not.
    Sets a very big precedent about accidents on the snow now
     
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  45. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not sure if its still a rule, but in sailing there was the concept of "Room and Time" in the rules when dealing with collisions.

    There are plenty of muppets who ski blindly on to busy runs and expect not to get hit. Or worse duck the rope on hypertrail when training is on and expect not to get hit.
    Chances are you will get hit, and it will hurt.

    Reading the facts of the case, it seems there is disagreement about where she emerged from, on to the main trail. In fact she may not have given the instructor "Room or Time" to avoid a collision.

    I don't imagine ski instructors run around looking for accidents, and for the most part are a little more skilled than your average punter at avoiding them. Whilst the court may have found differently, from my reading of what happened this seems like the more likely scenario. Personally I think its unreasonable to ski across in front of someone and expect them to avoid you without giving room or time for them to do so.
     
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  46. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    this is seriously crap reasoning.

    I know there is statute to cover it, but it would be "obvious to a reasonable person ... that if another driver lost control or was not doing what he or she should be doing on the roads, a collision might ensue and significant injury might be suffered"

    there is a code of conduct which skiers/boarders are expected to adhere to. it is advertised on tickets and prominent signage. shit happens still in some situations, but most collisions happen when someone is not adhering to the code
     
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  47. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    agree with much of this. I know nothing about this particular event other than what is posted here. if she entered a trail without due care, it's not the instructor's fault.

    however we have all seen some instructors skiing/boarding dangerously. not everyone in a red (or substitute the colour at your resort) suit is an amazingly skilled skier either
     
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  48. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    From the same team that bring you take responsibility for yourself.
     
  49. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    @currawong That's the exact scenario I posited in a FB thread about the judgement.

    Given the comments around the instructor's client not having the instructor in sight, it seems to me to be entirely possible that the instructor was looking back to check for them and may not have been exercising due care when the collision occurred.
     
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  50. Jonathan_P

    Jonathan_P One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Had not looked at the full court documents till today.

    Pretty surprised at the instructor involved, having had a lesson with them once or twice and seeing them around the hill did not seem like the sort of person who would be caught up in this incident, they seemed pretty cautious.

    Taking nothing away for the injured person, who as called out above is well loved respected community member who has suffered significantly as a result of this incident.

    It’s an awful situation, I often wonder why I continue this sport, disappears when I am out there though returned when I got cleaned up this year, but vanished again.
     
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