Resort Congestion discussion

Balsta

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Cant remember - it might be the parking is the Park entrance fee. Was trying to remember if there’s additional fees at Wattamolla and such.
Yep that’s it, no additional entrance fee as such and if you have a yearly pass no need to pay for the parking
 
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retread

Hard Yards
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Get Aunty Glad on the job. I’m sure she would like to build us a Metro from Jindy to Bullocks and then up the valley to Thredbo.
 
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snowgum

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Get Aunty Glad on the job. I’m sure she would like to build us a Metro from Jindy to Bullocks and then up the valley to Thredbo.
Gladys is happy to demolish and build a new stadium, worth, - $1bill? That same funding would achieve heaps in terms of funding bus terminals, subsidising bus services, extra ST cars and passing loops on same. Might also help pay to develop Sponars chalet area, for non alpine-ski folks as previously suggested.

I note most state Govts are city centric - hence the trouble attracting major state funding for anything in the bush.

I wonder if Labor have ever grabbed the SNowy / Cooma seat off the LNPs? I mean, why ‘waste’ good porky $ on the ingrates who’ll never change their vote when the same $ could swing 3 or 4 metro seats and maintain Glady/Baril majority? ;):rolleyes: Happens in ‘Vexico’ too!
 

Gumbo

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On what measure? It enables perisher to sell huge volumes of lift tickets which they otherwise wouldn't be able to get up the hill
This x1000. If used correctly it enables them to increase the amount of paying punters accessing the mountain. Even if on the books it makes a loss, imagine the lost sales if not only you had only the carpark but also had to allow people staying up mountain to park in the on mountain carpark as well.

There is no way of increasing vehicle volume up the mountain without either making it PT access only (state gov will never go for that) or widen the access roads (np will never go for that)

Eventually there will have to be a tipping point where if Perisher want more daily patronage they need to make skitube more attractive. Looks like we have not hit that point yet
 
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linked_recoveries

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If weekend access remains a problem how long before some of Thredbo's lodges begin to book weekly stays from Friday-Friday (or whatever non-weekend days you care to nominate)? It wouldn't be popular given the extra weekday involved. But still ...
 
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Peanut

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Gladys is happy to demolish and build a new stadium, worth, - $1bill? That same funding would achieve heaps in terms of funding bus terminals, subsidising bus services, extra ST cars and passing loops on same. Might also help pay to develop Sponars chalet area, for non alpine-ski folks as previously suggested.

I note most state Govts are city centric - hence the trouble attracting major state funding for anything in the bush.

I wonder if Labor have ever grabbed the SNowy / Cooma seat off the LNPs? I mean, why ‘waste’ good porky $ on the ingrates who’ll never change their vote when the same $ could swing 3 or 4 metro seats and maintain Glady/Baril majority? ;):rolleyes: Happens in ‘Vexico’ too!
I believe the seat in question at state level is Monaro, and was held by Steve Whan (ALP) if not prior to the last election, then the one before that. I played water polo at uni with one of his kids, and he was voted out towards the end of my time at uni (around 2016). The LNP were still in government at the time though.
 

MisterMxyzptlk

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What was the construction cost of the SkiTube in the 80s?

I find it hard to believe that it's not profitable considering the capital cost will have been loooong paid off.

This probably explains why it won't get done again anytime soon and the negative ROI
In 2021 dollars probably north of a billion

It was back on the ski slopes that Transfield almost found itself underwater. It had begun with another BOO contract in 1984, the Ski Tube, a $40 million train service to transport skiers via a tunnel up to the NSW ski fields. It seemed an unlikely way to lose $120 million.​


"The fundamental problem at the time was (Ski Tube) was our first embarkation on infrastructure projects," says Belgiorno-Zegna. "We frankly were driven to commence the project before we had properly engineered the first stage. And we learnt from those mistakes."

Ski Tube had three parts. Transfield and Kumagai were to put in $19.5 million apiece, with another $1 million from Bilsen Engineering. In addition, Transfield and Kumagai would put $13 million apiece into building The Station resort near the start of Ski Tube. And at the top of the Ski Tube Transfield had half of the $40 million Blue Cow Resort, together with alpine developer Fritz Feiersinger. (The Feiersinger link was from the year before, when he put Carlotti and Belgiorno-Nettis into the Victorian-based Falls Creek Ski Lifts Pty Ltd).

Thus in 1984, Transfield was looking at a combined investment of $52.5 million, and Kumagai $32.5 million, hanging on the Ski Tube. That was before the tunnellers hit fault lines. Stage 1 alone swallowed $40 million, and the completed project climbed to at least $135 million.

It is a tribute to Transfield's negotiating skills, that while Transfield appeared to have more funds at risk, Kumagai appears to have picked up most of the extra cost.

In July 1987, when Ski Tube was restructured, Kumagai owned 80 per cent, and with The Station had an estimated exposure of about $121 million. Transfield held 18 per cent, and its exposure together with The Station and Blue Cow had risen only $4.5 million to $57 million.

Transfield subsequently bought Feiersinger out of Blue Cow, and with the exit of Bilsen from Ski Tube the three projects were brought together, with Transfield and Kumagai both holding 50 per cent, in a mixture of shares and redeemable prefs. The difference, however, is that annual reports from 1992 show that while Transfield subscribed $57 million for its half share, Kumagai paid $117 million. In effect Kumagai wrote $60 million off the cost of the tunnel.

In the latest deal announced two months ago, Transfield is buying out Kumagai, then merging Ski Tube into Kerry Packer's Perisher resort, emerging with a 27 per cent of the new holding company, Perisher Blue. The deal has been described as a $100 million merger, which suggests that Transfield wrote off about $30 million. It was a big hit, but it could have been much worse.

"We took the pain a while ago," says Belgiorno-Zegna. "It's always been a cash positive business ... ignoring depreciation and some of those non-cash times. And Packer didn't take any pain on the deal."
 

rowdyflat

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Its geographical but this problem is essentially a Sydney /NSW problem of having all the resorts virtually in 2 valleys and only 1 service town ,
In Victoria all the punters and multiculturals leave Melbourne and go to Buller thank Dog.
 
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rowdyflat

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The problem of developing any more resorts is
1. Money - everything in Australia costs more than anywhere else. Maybe Norway and switzerland are worse, I wouldnt know.
2. The good NSW mountains are in a national park and the bureaucrats make everything impossible.
3. Too many lawyers with nothing to do.
4. Most australians love their cars , I have trouble getting friends to share cars to go mtbiking .
5. The current madness is Covid induced because 1 million Australians are no longer OS and some have left the cities .
Whether the tree change thing is permanent remains to be seen.
I suspect the shine will wear off and some will go back to being rats in a wheel but others will stay if there is a nice community ?
 

nfip

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Elon's Boring Company might give it a go.Didn't the Skitube get built at a discount because the contractors were using it as a proof of competency for the Sydney Harbor Tunnel or some other big project ?Or is that furphy?
Bottom line is that any improvement in access has to be cheap.No-one's sticking their hands in their pockets
Snowy Hydro 2 has a decent machine out Tumut way will be looking for a new contract at some stage.
 

kiter

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It might have already been covered but a snowplay and park area similar to Corin around Bredbo should be looked at . Close to Cooma and canbrrr for accom . Nighttime temps and very low humidity lend themselves to snowmaking . Over to the experts
 

climberman

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Snowy Hydro 2 has a decent machine out Tumut way will be looking for a new contract at some stage.
Getting one here isn’t really the expensive bit. It’s setting it up, running it for a few years, and hauling out and disposing of 1,000,000 cubes of granite.
 

AWJ

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The below article was from the Canberra times a couple weeks ago re the SAP. Talks about issues like governance and lack of parking. Also current thinking is roughly an extra 4500 beds split between Thredbo and Perisher that will be added over the next 40 years.

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7274253/snowy-cash-splash-on-the-way-with-focus-on-jindabyne/

... Visit the snowfields in peak season and the kilometres-long traffic snarls all along the Kosciuszko Road during skier morning arrival and post-chairlift departure times are worse than Sydney's Military Road.
Climb further up Alpine Way to Thredbo, and Kosciuszko Road to Perisher, and a fresh problem emerges: finding a place to park. On weekends mid-season, Perisher's enormous parking pad fills to capacity and the spillover cars are turned around to end up nose-to-tail, for hundreds of metres, backed up alongside the access road.
Thredbo general manager Stuart Diver acknowledged there were limitations for the master plan in influencing the resorts issues but expressed the hope that it would at least address two key, but very separate, problems: governance and parking.
"There are governance issues around having ski resorts within national parks such as [lift] carrying capacity, the amount of beds, that sort of stuff; there needs to be a resolution to that because at the moment, it's very antiquated as to how that [planning and approval] is done," he said.
Another of the key issues identified in the master plan was that over 85 per cent of the estimated 980,000 visitors to the Snowy region every year arrive by car. On top of visitor numbers, the workforce in the area effectively doubles during the winter season.
"There needs to be a resolution to the issue of parking and transportation into the region," Mr Diver said, indicating a multi-storey carpark was the ideal solution.

"As a business, we're pretty comfortable with what we're doing and where we're going in terms of what we're doing to grow visitor numbers and attract more people but one of our big issues has always been: where do we park people when they get here?"
Far more locked into winter seasonal tourism than Thredbo, the US-owned Perisher resort has seen a plethora of proposals floated down through the years by various owners to tap its year-round visitor potential. None have eventuated.
The latest draft master plan for Perisher has revealed a potential "urban plaza", infill accommodation, and the potential for expansion within the existing leasehold.
In the housing and accommodation plan, both Perisher and Thredbo will need an extra 2238 short-term accommodation units "to meet the forecast visitor needs by 2061".

The multi story car park Diver talks about is this one they've already put a DA in for and been approved - CP1

1623657656498.png

1623657729063.png
 

cold wombat

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Thanks that’s what I was looking for. Big haircuts have been taken but not by the current operators.
I'd want to see evidence the current operators aren't losing money on it. The maintenance bill must be quite decent but it only has a couple of months to pay for it.
 

MisterMxyzptlk

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Thanks that’s what I was looking for. Big haircuts have been taken but not by the current operators.
Yes.They do note it's a cash positive business but would probably have never paid it off given the construction costs.
Kerry Packer was very good at sweeping up hair after others had taken haircuts.
Alan Bond says hi
 

CarveMan

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Yes.They do note it's a cash positive business but would probably have never paid it off given the construction costs.
Kerry Packer was very good at sweeping up hair after others had taken haircuts.
Alan Bond says hi too
Like they always say, the third owner of a golf course is the one that makes money.
 

Ozgirl

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Which N. American model? Vail Resorts is increasing the paid parking at a few of their resorts in the northeast. That's obviously not making locals happy.
Car pooling (ie 3 or more people in car) got better parks. Remember when we did our Mountain Collective road tripp we were stoked to find we got premium car parking cause we had 3 people.
 
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nfip

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Getting one here isn’t really the expensive bit. It’s setting it up, running it for a few years, and hauling out and disposing of 1,000,000 cubes of granite.
out of my league / skill set to comment with any expert.
tho the granite goes into road base , concrete aggregate for state road works etc etc.
a thousand uses for it I would think.
 
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crackson

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out of my league / skill set to comment with any expert.
tho the granite goes into road base , concrete aggregate for state road works etc etc.
a thousand uses for it I would think.

Build a wall around Victoria.


Lets not forget parks already doubled entry fees to fund their infrastructure bill for perishers new village that was never built.

Thredbo people had their park entry fees doubled to pay for perishers new village hoax and now people want us to pay even more to cover perishers lack of parking. Ggf'ed. We have been paying for perishers hoax fake village for a decade now.

Senior govt official visited the shop to discuss how bad the road block was and he stated it was npws fault for being so restrictive on perisher infrastructure.

High level officials are mad at npws bs and excuses to profit off of the ski industry while doing everything they can to restrict it. RMB is the solution. Npws can stick to weeds and horseshit. The ski industry and govt have had a gutfull of their bs and excuses

Sucked in parks. You did it to yourselves with mismanagement and disgusting attitudes towards the ski industry.
 
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climberman

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out of my league / skill set to comment with any expert.
tho the granite goes into road base , concrete aggregate for state road works etc etc.
a thousand uses for it I would think.
Other uses have to be at the right time, and within a haul distance that is affordable. If not at the right time there are then double handling costs, waste licences, management costs, etc. Every truck coming out full has to return empty and every kilometre counts.

The mountains are still full of spoil piles from the original Scheme. Snowy 2.0 is largely filling dead space in their own dams (Talbingo and Tantangara) with their spoil (the poor buggers have 6,500,000M cubes to get rid of). Even the crushing process to get it to a size where it can be used for other uses is massively costly when at scale.

Good operators make their pile by being good at disposing of spoil (or finding a cheaper way to import if they are in deficit).

Road designers and builders have the embedded luxury of being able to adjust the road's design to try and reach a cut/fill balance; much less of this luxury for rail tunnel (or water tunnel) borers. Roads use road headers (well, in Sydney Sandstone anyway) because of the different tunnel shape compared to rail/water, rather than a TBM.
 

MisterMxyzptlk

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Road designers and builders have the embedded luxury of being able to adjust the road's design to try and reach a cut/fill balance; much less of this luxury for rail tunnel (or water tunnel) borers. Roads use road headers (well, in Sydney Sandstone anyway) because of the different tunnel shape compared to rail/water, rather than a TBM.
Currently being amazed by just this as the road builders duplicate Highway 1 through the Tallebudgera and Currumbin River Valleys.How they cut and fill and keep traffic flowing is incredible
 

climberman

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Currently being amazed by just this as the road builders duplicate Highway 1 through the Tallebudgera and Currumbin River Valleys.How they cut and fill and keep traffic flowing is incredible
The way they do the traffic switching and stuff, I can never quite get my head around how they map out the sequencing of works. Interesting stuff.
 

Billy_Buttons

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Other uses have to be at the right time, and within a haul distance that is affordable. If not at the right time there are then double handling costs, waste licences, management costs, etc. Every truck coming out full has to return empty and every kilometre counts.

The mountains are still full of spoil piles from the original Scheme. Snowy 2.0 is largely filling dead space in their own dams (Talbingo and Tantangara) with their spoil (the poor buggers have 6,500,000M cubes to get rid of). Even the crushing process to get it to a size where it can be used for other uses is massively costly when at scale.

Good operators make their pile by being good at disposing of spoil (or finding a cheaper way to import if they are in deficit).

Road designers and builders have the embedded luxury of being able to adjust the road's design to try and reach a cut/fill balance; much less of this luxury for rail tunnel (or water tunnel) borers. Roads use road headers (well, in Sydney Sandstone anyway) because of the different tunnel shape compared to rail/water, rather than a TBM.
Trebuchet ;)

1623670236077.png
 

Jestersded

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Skitube ticket includes a park entry fee.
If it’s about making more people use it, perhaps add Skitube to all tickets ie you pay for it whether using it or not.
As someone said, in Zermatt you wouldn’t pay extra for the Gornergratbahn.
That said, there are no cars in Zermatt.
I just skied over from Italy.
 
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