Resort upgrades / developments, who is improving infrastructure and who is doing little ?

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by Hunter, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    Yes I am a Buller skier and supporter but with the resort replacing BB 1 this summer and the installation of a new dam and expanded snowmaking to come it has to be said Buller is not sitting on their hands and just banking profits.
    As a Buller skier you always feel the resort is committed to improving the real on snow infrastructure for its skiers in recent years.

    Falls put a new lift in last season but are the other resorts putting profits back in as much as some ?

    Especially on the back of this fantastic and profitable season.

    Will be interesting to see if the other mountains invest on the back of what has been an excellent ski season
     
    Tanuki likes this.
  2. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    31,850
    Likes Received:
    14,400
    Thredbo have said they will replace the existing Merrits ancient two seater with an 8-pax gondola.
     
    Belly and Tanuki like this.
  3. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    Will be an excellent development if it goes ahead and long overdue for Thredbo
     
    Poppies likes this.
  4. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    31,850
    Likes Received:
    14,400
    It’ll be great if they start doing some uogrades that would improve the skiing experience!
    But yes, it’ll be a good thing.
     
    Annabuzzy, Belly and Tanuki like this.
  5. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    Of the main resorts it would
    Be Hotham and Thredbo who have done the least in recent years, especially in terms of lift upgrades ?
     
    Annabuzzy likes this.
  6. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    31,850
    Likes Received:
    14,400
    I don’t think Thredbo has upgraded a thing since the 90’s.
     
    Annabuzzy likes this.
  7. Tanuki

    Tanuki A Local
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    6,644
    Likes Received:
    2,910
    Yep, though Hot-ham has expanded its snowmaking substantially.
     
  8. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    That is showing a disregard for their loyal customers, especially given how well they do in the off season with summer trading, the only resort that does
     
  9. Seth

    Seth Old n' Crusty
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2000
    Messages:
    39,401
    Likes Received:
    17,230
    Keep pumping the money into the MTB facilities. It's the future.
     
    crackson, Zeroz and climberman like this.
  10. cornice11

    cornice11 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2018
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    179
    Huge snowmaking upgrades have serously improved thredbo - now its top to bottom for 95% of most seasons.

    But i agree its time for new lifts. If kosci didnt need replacing first, a detachable quad at snowgums would be a good idea for windhold days.
     
    Arne and sbm_ like this.
  11. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    May 12, 2000
    Messages:
    70,906
    Likes Received:
    30,773
    Since I’ve started chookfooting around Buller it’s become very apparent just how much they’ve done on the MTB front.
     
    Seth likes this.
  12. Seth

    Seth Old n' Crusty
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2000
    Messages:
    39,401
    Likes Received:
    17,230
    Need to get yourself an e-bike for summer loops down to Mirimbah.
     
    currawong, luvthabumps and CarveMan like this.
  13. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,813
    Likes Received:
    3,860
    That, or build the long discussed/once a firm plan lift from a base around tower 10 up toward Karels.

    It is abundantly clear though that Thredbo needs at least one extra high capacity lift from the base to take pressure off Crackenback and Gunbarrel. In busy periods, which feels like at least half the season nowadays, those lifts have ridiculously excessive queues.

    If Thredbo could open those two lifts a half hour earlier though that might also help disperse the crowds. Only problem being that until 8.45 you can only head back down to the bottom of said overcrowded lift.
     
    Arne, skiflat and asammut_au like this.
  14. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2002
    Messages:
    53,717
    Likes Received:
    19,321
    PB is pulling out a T Bar and installing a chair lift .... in the same spot :crap:
     
    crackson, asammut_au and cornice11 like this.
  15. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    31,850
    Likes Received:
    14,400
    True. I was concentrating on lifts ( as you do!)
     
    cornice11 likes this.
  16. nfip

    nfip Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    15,176
    Likes Received:
    12,725
    and a snow depth gauge !!!
    no not just another powerade bottle btw.
     
    dawooduck likes this.
  17. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    2,383
    This season Falls has significantly improved its snowmaking infrastructure and the new Eagle Chair has also been great.

    It’s looking to upgrade its oversnow arrivals facilities.

    Long term it has plans for the Nordic bowl w.r.t. summer sports training facilities.

    However, general opinion is that Merlin - the Falls/Hotham lift co. owner is underinvesting in infrastructure and focusing on lifting its returns via real estate development. New hospitality lessees have lifted catering options this season.
     
    Rick Ross Da Boss, Bogong and skiflat like this.
  18. Donzah

    Donzah Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    16,904
    Likes Received:
    13,396
    Perisher. ..who knows until the lease is settled .
     
    skiflat likes this.
  19. Pink

    Pink Addicted

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    867
    Likes Received:
    347
    I thought Merlin had a fire sale of all their undeveloped real estate at Hotham a couple of years ago. Reducing their liabilities. I don’t know what they’re holding on to at Falls.
     
    currawong likes this.
  20. chicski

    chicski One of Us
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    4,352
    Likes Received:
    6,078
    And removing another lift from said spot. Should help heaps.
     
  21. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2002
    Messages:
    53,717
    Likes Received:
    19,321
    The little creatures chair ...

    Where on a road to nowhere
    Come on inside
    Taking that ride to nowhere
    We'll take that ride ....
     
    snowgum and chicski like this.
  22. Hully

    Hully One of Us

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,506
    Likes Received:
    1,308
    I can't think of a single real estate development that Merlin have from involved in at Falls... or are likely to be involved in.
    Problem with lift upgrades at Falls is that anything will only be replaced as absolutley necessary due to age/reliability. There are currently no capacity issues at Falls causing significant queues. With the planning and environmental barriers that blocked the upgraded Eagle being installed on the preferred, and most obvious alignment, I can't see any motivation to put in new lifts.
     
    currawong, Bogong and skiflat like this.
  23. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,357
    Likes Received:
    18,109
    Oi!
    What about the Beginners Bowl area behind FF and The Burrow at the top of FF? :cool:
     
    Telemark Phat and sbm_ like this.
  24. Hully

    Hully One of Us

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,506
    Likes Received:
    1,308
    Are you aware of financial results that it has been a fantastic and profitable season or basing it on snow depth and RMB resort entry data? I'm not convinced that there is any indication that the profitability of FCSL would be any greater than previous seasons.... not that I'm privy to any results.
     
    DPS Driver and currawong like this.
  25. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    Significant increase in sales of any product or service nearly always results in an increase in profits why would skiing be any different ?
    Are you suggesting the extra income from a great season has been negated by a spike in overheads ?
     
    skiflat likes this.
  26. Hully

    Hully One of Us

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,506
    Likes Received:
    1,308
    No, I'm just suggesting that from my observations at Falls I don't believe that FCSL related sales would be up significantly if at all and I have read on these forums that the huge increase in visitation at Buller hasn't necessarily resulted in bullish sales for MBSC. I think that long lifted seasons with most or all of the ski area covered results in lift operating cost increases greater than increases in ticket sales. Regardless of the snow cover many of the out of peak season skiers are season pass holders.... no incremental revenue. The investments people are looking for here are generally lifted ski area (lift co) not RMB provided and managed infrastructure.

    Note this is based on the Victorian Alpine Resort management model.
     
    currawong, Bogong and Chaeron like this.
  27. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    31,850
    Likes Received:
    14,400
    True
    Not sure that’s smashing it for the hardened skier!
     
  28. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,357
    Likes Received:
    18,109
    Elitist! :whistle:
     
    Telemark Phat and climberman like this.
  29. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    22,350
    Likes Received:
    21,991
    Don't let the fashions being worn fool you!
     
    Telemark Phat and teckel like this.
  30. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    22,350
    Likes Received:
    21,991
    Just as an aside, and a bit OT, if visitation is growing, justifying investment....well. its taken me fkn years to get this hot on skis, so just have a think about where that investment dollar is best spent. Your advanced skier benefit from investment won't pay off for another ten years at best, if they keep coming! I don't blame them for looking at entry level investment, though they probably missed a big one not figuring out how to monetise an element that have been discussed to death.

    You don't need to get an addict hooked, they will turn up no matter what. I know I will!
     
  31. teckel

    teckel Old n' Crusty
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    37,804
    Likes Received:
    5,477
    Lake Mountain has installed 2 magic carpets! :eek:
    One for the main toboggan run, and one for the snowboard school area.
     
    snowgum and Chaeron like this.
  32. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    Good call
     
  33. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    31,850
    Likes Received:
    14,400
    Hey!
    I resemble that moustache!
     
    Untele-whippet and telecrag like this.
  34. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    22,350
    Likes Received:
    21,991
    Indeedlydooyoodoo!
     
    Telemark Phat and climberman like this.
  35. cin

    cin Old n' Crusty
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    20,156
    Likes Received:
    8,284
    If there is one resort who is doing 2 4ths of bugger all except damage control, it’s Thredbo.
    As a Thredbo skier it makes me rage
     
    Annabuzzy and skiflat like this.
  36. crackson

    crackson A Local
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    6,815
    Likes Received:
    3,915
    All lifts are now electric.

    And they still have a better lift system than anyone.
     
    climberman likes this.
  37. travelislife

    travelislife One of Us
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,972
    Likes Received:
    765
    Last year they flogged a heap off in one go under Auction at the Olsen. Very rare freehold blocks too.
     
    skiflat likes this.
  38. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    So the two resorts most inactive it seems would be Thredbo number 1 by some distance then Hotham
     
  39. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    22,350
    Likes Received:
    21,991
    They are just waiting for everyone else to catch up, before moving in front again.
     
    Hully, crackson, sbm_ and 2 others like this.
  40. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    :D
     
    crackson and telecrag like this.
  41. Ret-ro

    Ret-ro Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2017
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    371
    & adding a large area of snowmaking. PB is a long way ahead of the others.. Just rake in the cash.. One of these years they will decided to add a v6 2 new quads ..
     
  42. crackson

    crackson A Local
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    6,815
    Likes Received:
    3,915
    Shame about the vert.
     
    Chaeron likes this.
  43. Zeroz

    Zeroz One of Us
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2002
    Messages:
    4,931
    Likes Received:
    2,288
    Australian resorts have been spending tens of millions on infrastructure for the last decade. Just not on lifts

    The 2003 and 2008 CSIRO reports predicted less snow, shorter seasons, higher snowline. Aus resorts will have snow until 2070, just less of the stuff. (It's happening especially the melt). So Aus ski resorts spent big on snowmaking, not lifts.

    Doesn't matter if you agree or not. They already did it. Compressors, snowguns, pipes, dams, terrain clearing, water rights etc aren't very glamorous, but are expensive.

    Perisher alone spent $25m in the last 10 years on snowmaking.
     
    Marty_McSly, zac150, Alfred14 and 3 others like this.
  44. Donzah

    Donzah Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    16,904
    Likes Received:
    13,396
    Yup.
    New TA fans this year again.
    Beasts.
     
  45. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    31,850
    Likes Received:
    14,400
    To build on Zeroz’s and others’ comments re Thredbo, they have actually done a lot of tweaks that are good business items, just not lift renewal and terrain expansion:
    • Food concession acquisition (allows for profit and risk spread, from a customer POV a balance between loss in variety and improvement in ease of payments, etc).
    • MTB hire acquisition and expansion
    • Minor changes such as around bottom of Higj Noon to seperate ffeom Friday Flat beginners area.
    • Minor changes to FF magic carpet stuff to improve beginner experience
    • Major new MTB trail (The All Mountain)
    • Village-side skate bowl and stuff
    Unfortunately this stuff is all sold through the worst ecommerce site of a company with this much turnover I’ve ever seen. When a paying customer can’t easily buy a product they know exists, costing many hundreds of dollars, you have a problem.
     
  46. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    31,850
    Likes Received:
    14,400
    Buttervert?
     
    crackson likes this.
  47. skiflat

    skiflat Part of the Furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 1999
    Messages:
    36,770
    Likes Received:
    67
    Traverse Alpine Group at Falls.....

    Be interesting to see if they get the ATS development area
     
    Chaeron likes this.
  48. Hunter

    Hunter Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    13,323
    Likes Received:
    446
    Some are doing both...................
     
  49. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    501
    Since advanced skier numbers aren't increasing that fast and a modern detachable chairlift costs around $10 million to build, I don't see much on the horizon for Australian skiers who like dark blue or black runs.

    Although there might be an alternative... what has been called the Roundhill Approach.

    Roundhill was a very small New Zealand resort in the middle of nowhere, it was on a main road, but with a only a two pomas and a T-bar servicing short beginner and low intermediate runs, there was little incentive for most skiers to drop in... until...

    Behind Roundhill resort lay a large and undeveloped mountain. Backcountry skiers reported that it had a vast variety of exciting slopes. But Roundhill was tiny and had no money... so what could they do?

    Well in 2010 they installed Heritage Express, the worlds longest, fastest and steepest nutcracker tow with the biggest vertical drop in NZ (783 metres). The expense was just a tiny fraction of what even a T-bar would have cost. The lift is cheap to operate and costs almost nothing to maintain.

    Transferring this concept to Australia, the resorts need to retain a slick facade of shiny chairlifts and general flashiness for the mainstream beginner and intermediate market, but might there be room for a few of these economical super nutcrackers for advanced skiers in the more out of the way areas of resorts? These things can be built for 10% the cost of a T-bar and because they don't alter the landscape apart from a few small holes for the posts that support the rope, there is little "Green Tape" to overcome.

    Possible locations:
    • Perisher - Guthega. Mt Tate East Ridge
    • Falls Creek. Rocky Knolls, Damsite and Mt McKay
    • Hotham. Pee Gully, Pink Hamberg and perhaps One Tree Hill (Although the base station might be too close to masses of punters?)
     
  50. stansi

    stansi One of Us
    Ski Pass - Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,459
    Likes Received:
    525
    Who needs another lift? At Hotham they've got so many there are apparently plans to shut one down.