S/LAB shift MNC

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by piolet, Dec 9, 2017.

  1. piolet

    piolet Found anything yet?
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  2. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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  3. Team Weasel

    Team Weasel Addicted

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    Very cool concept. Puts the final nail in the coffin of frame bindings.

    The weight for the more touring-orientated is still off-putting...especially if you can already get by on options that are half the weight (ATK Freeraiders, for example).

    Then again, I've spent maybe two days in my life on alpine bindings, so I don't know what I'm missing. Maybe my knees will tell me in a couple of years...
     
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  4. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    In theory. With a RRP of USD$650 it will be a grand here, so just under double a Guardian/Baron etc.

    We sell heaps of Guardian/Barons to people who like the idea of touring and want to keep their options open, but the Shift's price tag will filter them out and only go to the people who intend to tour on it. Plus you need pin boots to tour, and while they are becoming more and more prevalent, they're not ubiquitous.

    I called the Kingpin a solution looking for a problem, which I still kind of agree with even though I took some overseas earlier this year and they served a purpose, and I think the Shift will be similar in that it's a gateway binding to a full pin setup.

    Most people who think they need these kinds of bindings just need to go line up at the Aiguille du Midi and look at what's around them, and what's going to get skied on light, full pin bindings.
     
  5. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker
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    It would be nice to have a version for silly old light weight buggers and feather weight ladies with a lower DIN of 4.
     
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  6. essjaywhy

    essjaywhy Addicted

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  7. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture

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    Super interesting.

    I suspect we will see a move toward more all around equipment (smaller quivers) and this seems a good compromise between alpine downhill performance and pin on the up.

    Salomon will still be making the MTN which I think is a pointer to their thoughts. This doesn’t replace a low tech for long tours, but may be better for most things short of that, particularly if you want to use the same set up for extensive in bounds skiing.
     
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  8. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter
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    Now that is cool, a binding which will actually fit the niche people buy the Kingpin for.
     
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  9. hpsauce

    hpsauce One of Us
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    what is the niche people buy the Kingpin for?
    That is, as opposed to a full pin binding...
     
  10. piolet

    piolet Found anything yet?
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    Some perceived level of ruggedness/durability? Retention?
     
  11. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture

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    Better skiing
     
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  12. hpsauce

    hpsauce One of Us
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    So does this mean it is less of a "use case" and more of a perception of quality of full pin bindings?????
     
  13. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    100%

    Have a look at the Insta feeds of all the Black Crows athletes getting kitted out early in the season. Big skis that will get skied in bigger lines, almost all with medium to light, full pin setups.

    ie:

     
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  14. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter
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    People who either think they need something burlier than pintech when they don't (@aussieskier post above) or people who want only one pair of skis for the resort and bc who don't want frame bindings.
     
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  15. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    Those people will also need pin boots. They’re definitely more prevalent, my everyday alpine boot has them, but they’re far from ubiquitous.

    Still, it’s great to see innovation, people will definitely want the binding, we will stock it for sure.

    Regardless of this discussion Salomon have developed something that people want.
     
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  16. piolet

    piolet Found anything yet?
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    Yeah that's where I see them used, to take more resort abuse.
     
  17. hpsauce

    hpsauce One of Us
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    The way I read it, salomon is kind of gently pitching the "safety" angle. i.e. pin bindings with the release quality of alpine bindings downhill....anti-friction plates and lateral give etc.... versus what seems to be a (perceived/potential) criticism of pin bindings.
     
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  18. piolet

    piolet Found anything yet?
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    ^ and the feel. Pins can be rigid feeling. Don't bother me though
     
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  19. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    Yes they definitely feel harsh and metallic. Though the G3 ION butts up against your boot heel and has some spring travel as the ski flexes which is smoother.

    I skied mine heaps inbounds this year as the snow was so good and the Navis Freebirds were the widest skis in the cupboard.

    Some of my best turns ever at Buller were on full pins, including the fastest I’ve ever skied Hog’s Back and Federation.
     
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  20. Whatever really

    Whatever really Hard Yards

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    These make sense for me as I spend a lot of my skiing days in nz where I might be touring one day resort the next but want a one ski quiver and don’t have great knees and not real confident so I’ll never ski a full pin binding unless it was multiple day hut to hut.
    I think if these are side by side with king pins most will go The salomon but I think these will cost a few hundred more.
     
  21. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    I like the progression.

    I've skied pin tech for aprrox 15 years and don't have a problem skiing them but I do tend to hold back a bit as compared to skiing a full alpine binding. Touch wood, I've not had a serious injury on my pin techs but many of my friends have. Proper good skiers too, guides, ski photographers & ski bums etc and nearly all had the same injury and cause, forward twisting non release at the toe and pop, there goes the knee. Hence why I ski more within limits when on my touring set up.

    My take is if I can get 10% better release value or safety then I take it on my back-country set up. I've been in too many back-country situations where I've had to retrieve or bring injured skiers home. When you're in resort this isn't too much of an issue but the degree of difficulty increases dramatically when you factor in back-country locations.

    I get the fact that pin tech works fine and that's good enough for some and I'm ok with that and I'm ok skiing it uphill or down. But I do believe their is a better/safer downhill solution. Obviously so too do the binding manufacturers otherwise they wouldn't be spending so much on r&d for these bindings.
     
  22. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture

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    The more I think about these things;

    1. They've got to be a game changer for frame style AT bindings. While there's still a use for frame bindings with normal Alpine boots it's surely now a much smaller market.
    2. Surely now the Kingpin and Tecton have been usurped?

    I
     
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  23. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    Just don't underestimate the appeal of a frame binding for a skier who isn't quite sure if they will really want to get into touring. We sell plenty of frame bindings on heavy skis to people that are touring-curious but not sold yet, we tell them that in terms of hardware, all you need is a frame binding and skins (of course safety equipment but that's another discussion) and you can go touring in your alpine boots. If you don't know what a touring boot is like, touring in an alpine boot isn't the worst thing in the world for an hour or two.

    There are more and more pin boots out there but most people don't have them.

    Kingpin is probably more under threat than the Tecton just due to weight. But yes the Shift is definitely gunning at their market - which is good, competition will drive innovation.
     
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  24. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    OK this binding is going to be available in Australia for this coming winter, price is $849 so spot on with the Kingpin. We've ordered some today.

    I've ordered a pair for myself, given I get around on a Pin/DIN boot (Cochise) it's a good opportunity to get out and test them.
     
  25. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture

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    Great.

    I’m in!!!

    At the very least it will lighten up my travel gear by around a kg
     
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  26. PiniPowPow

    PiniPowPow One of Us
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    Definitely getting a set of these for my resort/sidecountry skis. Will stick with full pin for my dedicated BC rig.
     
  27. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Why would you stick with your full pins for the sake of 300 grams? Depending on what set up you have it could be more like 150-200 grams?
     
  28. Whatever really

    Whatever really Hard Yards

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    I can’t beli the amount of people on pin bindings here in Whistler in bounds and out.
    I’ll be going the shift next I think.
     
  29. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    OK so I've had my first fondle of the Shift.

    Looks like it will do what it says it does, need to get it out in the field of course for a full test.

    Toe looks good, could be slightly fiddly to transition but not too bad.

    I'm not in love with the walk mode engagement of the heel, basically if you're hiking and you stand on the deployed brake, it can pop down and put you back in to ski mode which could be a bit of a pain.

    But overall the problem that it solves over its biggest competitor, the Kingpin, is lateral toe release in ski mode. Tecton does this too of course.

    We get our full delivery on Aug 5th, it's only a dozen pairs, most are spoken for, get in touch if you need some.
     
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  30. Kopite

    Kopite Addicted

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    Had a look at these today at Larry’s. I know pretty much SFA about back country, so couldn’t comment on much but what I was amazed by was how light they are. Seem really solid too considering the weight.

    For someone who has eyes on getting into touring I can see these being a really good option given I could potentially ski in and out of bounds on them and negate the need for additional skis purely for BC purposes.
     
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  31. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    Still getting up to speed on terminology and standards in the touring arena, so noob question: The Shift (and G3 Ion) are compatible with ISO9523 soles with tech inserts in the heel and toe?
     
  32. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    For anyone interested in these bindings, Snowbound in Chatswood have a discount price of $679.99 for these on their website, ending today.

    They only have stock in 100mm brakes though. Probably not a bad pickup for someone thinking Kore 93, Zero G 95, Wailer 99 etc.
     
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  33. Chowder11

    Chowder11 Part of the Furniture
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    Shift brakes are really wide so you could put a 100mm on probably anything up to a 105mm comfortably and a bit more with a “little help”.
     
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  34. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    So hypothetically, someone thinking about an Oz touring rig and a lightish setup to take to Japan, could set up skis like ZG95 and Wailer 106 with quiver killers and use one pair of 100mm Shifts for both?
     
  35. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    Yes, but why not go full tech & take advantage of your ski weight.

    Full tech also way less prone to snow build up & fouling issues.
     
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  36. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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  37. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    Full heel and toe release > nth degree weight saving, for me, at this point in my development.
     
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  38. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    Thanks for that CM. Well worth the long read.
     
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  39. Kopite

    Kopite Addicted

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    To jump into your conversation, I think as well the versatility counts. Inbound as good as downhill bindings is the big winner for me. I'm seriously looking now at pairing Shifts up with something like a DPS to give me a ski/boot/binding combo that will go well in or out and to the side to get me started on the backcountry stuff, but mean I've not got to take 2 sets of skis with me if I want to do a bit of each on any one trip.
     
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  40. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    It's a public conversation, feel free to jump in. :thumbs:

    They certainly tick a lot of boxes for versatility.

    They even apparently offer a small range of adjustment, 25mm or 30mm depending on the reviewer. This would be enough that I could even set them up to share with M18. My smallest boot has a 303mm BSL, his boots are 328mm. @CarveMan, can you confirm the range of adjustment?
     
  41. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    There may have been a design tweak to mitigate this. An early review on Blistergear reported brakes unlocking while skinning and the skis bump together.

    Cody Townsend commented on the Blister review:
     
  42. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture

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    I was super keen to get the Shifts as a touring/travelling set up for my 115mm underfoot powder skis. What I realised though is I’m not likely to be doing much touring on such wide skis, and for under $200 I can buy Alpine bindings which will be only a couple of hundred grams heavier, and function as well or better downhill. I save myself $500 or so.

    I will probably look to move to Shifts when I replace my 100mm underfoot touring skis, do they can be more dual use touring and resort skiing. In the meantime though the quiver set up doesn’t justify that.,
     
  43. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    Apparently there's a bit of an issue with Shifts and Quiver Killers at the moment.

    I have to qualify this heavily for now. I got this partial information through a mobile phone call from a place that was quite windy, and the wind noise often drowned out the sound.

    I was talking with someone at Snowbound in Chatswood. I didn't catch his name, I suspect this late in the season it may have been the proprietor. Whatever, he seemed to know his shit, and may have had a trace of an English accent.

    What I could gather in between wind gusts, is that there is some sort of incompatibility between one of the toe piece screws and Quiver Killers. It was something to do with a cup on the screw. I'm not sure if the screw has a cup or needs one.

    Apparently the issue didn’t surface until after the release of the bindings to the market, QK's having been overlooked during product development and testing. Salomon have identified the problem and a solution, a replacement screw is listed as a spare part now. Snowbound have ordered some of the new screws but don't have a delivery ETA yet. They hope to have them "before Christmas".

    I expect to be in the vicinity of RNS next Tuesday or so. I'll call in to Snowbound and seek to clarify the information. I'll post more then, unless someone else posts definitive information beforehand.
     
  44. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    Sounds like rubbish.

    I buy all required threads for binding fixing to quiver killer from Universal Fasteners. Basically a bolt shop. Not complicated.
     
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  45. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    I also haven’t heard of binding manufacturers catering for inserts - they effectively allow you to buy less bindings which is definitely not in their interests.
     
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  46. Slowman

    Slowman Addicted
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    I have now done five days of touring with my new Shifts with 100mm brakes mounted on DPS Cassiar 95's. These skis were previously mounted with Marker F12's and good screw separation was achieved by mounting the Shifts half a centremetre forward of the midsole.

    My current thoughts/impressions are:

    (a) They are better than frame bindings for a set up intended for both resort and backcountry use - as their tech toe is superior for touring and they are lighter. In downhill mode they are very easy to enter and they feel very secure. My basic bench type testing results in nice smooth lateral releases. Thus far I have not fallen when using the things.
    (b) In touring mode they are a bit more difficult to "enter" than my Dynafit Radicals - as the toe seems a bit more susceptible to ice accumulation, it's a bit fiddly at times to get the pins lined up and the locking lever requires more force to pull up (mind you I am a bit weakened by antiquity). A bit of silicon spray and practice reduced these problems somewhat (antiquity issues aside).
    (c) I don't like the relative ease with which downwards pressure on a brake arm (typically when it is struck by the other ski) causes the brake to click down into place. On some outings I experienced the dubious assistance of a brake wanting to be a kind of ski crampon. Hopefully some further product developments might alleviate this. Avoid getting a pair with brakes too wide for your skis as this would increase the incidence of this problem.
    (d) I had no problems with the heel riser. It always stayed in place and it did not bother me that there is only one riser height.
    (e) Dynafit crampons do not fit. Apparently special Shift ones will be available shortly.
    (f) With lighter weight skis intended just for touring I will probably continue to use my Dynafit Radicals.
     
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  47. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    This, from quiverkiller.com, in response to my enquiry about availability of a fastener kit for the Shift:

    Hey Marty,

    As soon as I get one in hand we’ll work up a screw set! I’ve heard there’s a funky screw that we may have to have custom made though so it may delay things slightly.

    Thanks,
    Rusty Perry
    I'm happy to PM the contact's email and phone number to anyone who wants to make their own enquiry.
     
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  48. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    Can you post a pic of this funky screw/fixing?
     
  49. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    Will see what I can do when I get home tonight.
     
  50. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future!
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    Found on Snowheads:

    The toe stud has a through hole containing a regular csk flat binding screw so a QK csk flat head simply replaces the factory screw, just like stud on a Sallie Z/Atomic FFG/Scott S series.

    It's the other four toe fixings that give the strength to the mount, the stud fixing only supports the walk/ski lever etc - just like the centre screw on a Tour/Kingpin or the front toe bracket on Beast 16.​
     
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