SAP Article - Privatising KNP

AWJ

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IMO the most feasible solution would be some form of ropeway transportation, like a gondola or aerial tram from Bullocks Flat to Friday Flat. Trains are prohibitively expensive and building a track will damage the environment, and widening the road only makes winter accidents and carpark pressures worse.

However, as discussed in another thread (I think in the Thredbo development bang a gong thread), even ropeway transportation is very expensive. A 13km 10 gondola would have the capacity needed, but would take at least 36 minutes (if travelling at 6m/s) and could cost the best part of $100 million. For comparison, the Cablebus, a 9.2km Doppelmayr gondola in Mexico City, cost $108 million USD. Add in annual maintenance costs, and you've got a very expensive project for the government to build and operate.

Building this infrastructure, regardless of whether it's in train or cableway or road form, puts more pressure on the resorts. They can upgrade the lifts but at a certain point the runs become full. I don't go to Perisher enough to know what it's like there, but Thredbo could easily expand into Stanleys. Put in a lift heading up the ridge and a connector lift from Merritts or FF, and you're done. Of course, this once again is very expensive and and causes massive amounts of damage to a previously undisturbed area.

The SAP said it would support both a transport system, such as a gondola, into the resorts, and it said it would support resort expansion in the future if year-round use would be viable. Thredbo fits the bill on both counts. I personally doubt any of it will happen because of how expensive it all is, and because of how much money KT is about to spend on lifts anyway.

If they're going to put in transport, which they should, it should be a ropeway. It's far too expensive for it to happen IMO. The government may push Thredbo to expand in the coming years. I hope it doesn't happen because of the damage it will cause, but it might happen.
No they can't, Stanleys isn't in the leasehold.
 

Telemark Phat

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There is so much endangered ecology in existing resort areas. See my earlier comment about stuff that is already rooted and CEOs drinking downstream.

Yours is an ideal, fanciful world where parks receive limitless funding. Mine isn't.
Downstream from the poo works is safer easier than in most of the park.

IRT your second paragraph,

What.
 

Telemark Phat

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I’ve banged on about transport for years, that to me is the best solution. Get polluting cars out of the park and if the transport is good people won’t mind staying down the valley.

It’s too expensive, but a Zermatt-style train to Thredbo with a stop at Bullocks, and increasing ski tube capacity would work well.

Little Cottonwood Canyon in Utah is currently being ‘loved to death’ and they are weighing up a 3S gondola up the valley or a road upgrade to provide far greater bus capacity.
Agreed. At least in NSW transport needs to be solved
 
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CarveMan

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A lot of these discussions are terribly gatekeep-y.

As mentioned before the supply / demand equation is becoming skewed, so another solution to the imbalance is maybe park veterans should be asked to stand aside so a younger cohort can enjoy its wonders without blowing out the numbers and endangering the environment.

(yes I am trolling)
 

Alleve

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Converting it to an onsen, with water heated by gas. Really, really stupid.
If they have to heat it with gas to bring it to the right temperature, why locate it on (and ruin) a natural spring? They could locate their stupid onsen anywhere else and it would be the same because they'd have to heat it with gas regardless. It's such a moronic and needlessly destructive idea, all to create an attraction most people couldn't care less about anyway. It's a depressing thought that whoever came up with the idea of it is in our government.
 

Slowman

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Alleve

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FriendlyJordies seems to me to be far too biased, almost to the point where he's as biased as the news corporations he criticises, albeit he leans in the opposite direction. He does raise some very good points though, both in regards to this and in regards to Barilaro generally (I've been following the lawsuit he and Barilaro are in. It seems Google is taking Jordan's side). I'm glad he's bringing attention to it, because there is a lot wrong with the SAP, and the onsen is one of them. I really couldn't disagree with him on this one. The sooner Barilaro leaves office and gets his hands away from the park, the better.

Unrelated note but I hope Jordan wins the lawsuit. Barilaro should be held accountable for his corruption and that accountability isn't going to come from parliament any time soon
 

AWJ

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A question for the old timers amongst us - what was the general opinion(s) around the introduction and building of the raised metal walkway from Thredbo to the Rawsons Pass shitters back in the day?

Also, what were thoughts re building the Rawsons Pass shitters themselves in 2007?
 
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skifree

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A question for the old timers amongst us - what was the general opinion(s) around the introduction and building of the raised metal walkway from Thredbo to the Rawsons Pass shitters back in the day?

Also, what were thoughts re building the Rawsons Pass shitters themselves in 2007?

It was a vital erosion control measure.
 

Slowman

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A question for the old timers amongst us - what was the general opinion(s) around the introduction and building of the raised metal walkway from Thredbo to the Rawsons Pass shitters back in the day?

Also, what were thoughts re building the Rawsons Pass shitters themselves in 2007?
The mesh walkway was a great success. Before it was installed there was a large amount of increasing surface erosion around a constantly widening foot trail. The volume of visitors is so large you also need some toilet facilities. The mess would be hideous without them.
 

Telemark Phat

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A question for the old timers amongst us - what was the general opinion(s) around the introduction and building of the raised metal walkway from Thredbo to the Rawsons Pass shitters back in the day?

Also, what were thoughts re building the Rawsons Pass shitters themselves in 2007?
Among which groups? I was only young when it went in. I thought it was pretty obtrusive and it killed the walk for me.

From a management perspective its been a fantastic success. The Thredbo to Kosci walk has been selected as a sacrifical site where people are encouraged to visit through the provision of infrastructure so their impact can be more easily contained. This has required increased infrastructure such as the toilets at Rawsons Pass.

The raised walkway works really well because people are less likely to step off the walkway than on a regular trail, there is no boundary area for invasive species to easily occupy and habitat is maintained under the walkway so it isn't a barrier for the movement of small mammals and reptiles.
 

AWJ

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It was a vital erosion control measure.
But they could have closed the Summit Walk (and the Lakes Walk) to achieve the same thing. The last thing we want is people actually getting access to the park and enjoying it :rolleyes:
Legs picked up on my vibe on this one.

No doubt it's a great erosion control measure, given the # of people who traverse the Thredbo/Kossie path over summer these days, without the metal walkway, the dirt path would be wider and deeper ruts than the mountain biking tracks at Thredbo.

Was more interested if any of the usual reasons were trotted out to attempt to stop those particular developments of the park eg
  • It'll ruin a pristine environment!
  • It'll be an eyesore!
and so on
 
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AWJ

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Among which groups? I was only young when it went in. I thought it was pretty obtrusive and it killed the walk for me.

From a management perspective its been a fantastic success. The Thredbo to Kosci walk has been selected as a sacrifical site where people are encouraged to visit through the provision of infrastructure so their impact can be more easily contained. This has required increased infrastructure such as the toilets at Rawsons Pass.

The raised walkway works really well because people are less likely to step off the walkway than on a regular trail, there is no boundary area for invasive species to easily occupy and habitat is maintained under the walkway so it isn't a barrier for the movement of small mammals and reptiles.
Any of the groups. Genuine interest in what the prevailing mood at the time was?

The metal pathway was finished in the mid 80's wasn't it? So i was only really young myself and i don't have a memory of the walk pre the metal walkway
 

Telemark Phat

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Any of the groups. Genuine interest in what the prevailing mood at the time was?

The metal pathway was finished in the mid 80's wasn't it? So i was only really young myself and i don't have a memory of the walk pre the metal walkway
Albina had finally been removed due to the severe impact it was having on Lake Albina a couple of years before the walkway went in. Installing the walkway was a significant commitment to allowing continued access to the walk between Thredbo and Kosci. The change in the geomorphology of the area is still easy to see, its just covered in alpine flora rather than being denuded.
 
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zapruda

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Was more interested if any of the usual reasons were trotted out to attempt to stop those particular developments of the park eg
  • It'll ruin a pristine environment!
  • It'll be an eyesore!
and so on
The walkway is a necessary eyesore, no doubt about it. I avoid it wherever possible. It does a great job of funneling the masses to Rawsons pass and Mt Kosciuszko. You can still see the old eroded track underneath it. A pretty clear example of how long recovery can take in that kind of environment.

But the walkway wasn’t built to benefit commercial interests. Thredbo obviously profit off its existence but that wasn’t the intended purpose.

These new proposals are dangerous because they are solely in the interest of commercial development. Areas of the park are being taken away from NPWS. Not a good thing.
 

teletripper

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If you want to know more and a very detailed and informed account about the constant battles, struggles and vigilance required to protect and conserve Kosciuszko National Park and in particular the Main Range area, I would suggest you need to go no further than ‘Kosciuszko: A great National Park’, by Deidre Slattery and the late Graeme Worboys.


This should be a mandatory and tested text for every Environment Minister, Premier and Deputy Premier and/or decision maker responsible for KNP and its future, as well as any white shoe developer who has designs on exploiting the park.

 

Alleve

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These new proposals are dangerous because they are solely in the interest of commercial development. Areas of the park are being taken away from NPWS. Not a good thing.
A pretty bad thing at the best of times, let alone when the areas being taken away from the NPWS are being given to Pork Barrelaro. Add on top of that the ever looming threat of climate change. God knows why the Govt. thinks the best way of promoting the Snowy Mtns is trashing the place. It's almost like they... dare I say it... don't care about the park....
 

Telemark Phat

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Legs Akimbo

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No one is advocating reducing access to the Park @Legs Akimbo . The key stakeholders to this plan are more likely to do that .
Of course they are. Paying for a luxury experience - you're out. And on it goes. You are all saying people are allowed in, but only people of whom we approve.
QED

The purpose of a National Park is to exclude a whole bunch landuses and activities. As a result some people are excluded.
How snobbish. Special people like you, I assume.
 

Kletterer

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Of course they are. Paying for a luxury experience - you're out. And on it goes. You are all saying people are allowed in, but only people of whom we approve.

How snobbish. Special people like you, I assume.
Whats this crap accusation that there are people we dont approve of coming into the Park ? Go through the BC threads and show us some examples of where we do not encourage newbies to a Wilderness experience.
 

Legs Akimbo

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Whats this crap accusation that there are people we dont approve of coming into the Park ? Go through the BC threads and show us some examples of where we do not encourage newbies to a Wilderness experience.
There's the rub. It has to be a wilderness experience to be OK. A mere experience is not good enough. You will let people enjoy the park on your terms.

Weren't you the bloke who was up in arms because Vic Parks protected a First Nations cultural site in the Grampians? I bet you fret about restricted climbing access all over the place.
 

Kletterer

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There's the rub. It has to be a wilderness experience to be OK. A mere experience is not good enough. You will let people enjoy the park on your terms.

Weren't you the bloke who was up in arms because Vic Parks protected a First Nations cultural site in the Grampians? I bet you fret about restricted climbing access all over the place.
No. Any experience is good . I do ski in Resorts and walk the Tourist tracks as well you know . Nothing mere about it. Great to see families and such out enjoying it. Cultural sites importance far outweighs climbing access. There are plenty of alternative areas to climb. Whats to fret about ?
 
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Legs Akimbo

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No. Any experience is good . I do ski in Resorts and walk the Tourist tracks as well you know . Nothing mere about it. Great to see families and such out enjoying it. Cultural sites importance far outweighs climbing access. There are plenty of alternative areas to climb. Whats to fret about ?
Then why can't other people walk the tourist tracks? What do you actually object to about these proposals if it is not more access for the great washed? I suppose you think the Thredbo Valley Trail is a good thing as well.

And why would I well know anything?
 

Kletterer

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Then why can't other people walk the tourist tracks? What do you actually object to about these proposals if it is not more access for the great washed? I suppose you think the Thredbo Valley Trail is a good thing as well.

And why would I well know anything?
Have I ever objected to other people walking on tourist tracks ?
 
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Legs Akimbo

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You seem to have your own version of what I think so far- you may as well make that list yourself. Your assumptions are misconstrued , as is your understanding of whats at risk if Pork Barrelaro gets his way.
I have made that list - you object to people of whom you don't approve enjoying the park.
This is the key IMO. The SAP is pie in the sky stuff, that will likely never happen.
What areas of the park are being taken away from NPWS? Who is the approving authority for the existing villages now?
 
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