SAP Article - Privatising KNP

Alleve

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Jun 17, 2019
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I have made that list - you object to people of whom you don't approve enjoying the park.

What areas of the park are being taken away from NPWS? Who is the approving authority for the existing villages now?
The SAP effectively gives the Department of Planning (which Barilaro influences heavily through his position as Deputy Premier and as Minister for Regional NSW Industry & Trade) more power to push through development ("fast-tracking", the Dept. website calls it). Areas aren't literally being taken away, rather Barilaro, through the SAP, is increasing his power over the park and looking to irresponsibly develop (and irreparably damage) areas of the park.

To answer your question, Alpine resort development assessments are governed by the State Environmental Planning Policy (Kosciuszko National Park-Alpine Resorts) 2007. The Minister is the consent authority, and it goes through the Alpine Resorts Team.
 

zapruda

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I have made that list - you object to people of whom you don't approve enjoying the park.

What areas of the park are being taken away from NPWS? Who is the approving authority for the existing villages now?
Legs, I don’t think anyone here is saying they don’t want people to enjoy the park. They are just suggesting that further development would likely cross the line in terms of what is acceptable in a national park. The cantilever viewing deck at porcupine rocks and the helicopter drop offs as an example. The parks is perfectly accessible in its current state. More so than most due to the existing resort infrastructure as well as Snowy Hyrdo roads etc.

This map shows what will go to the NSW planning department. NPWS will lose a great deal of control over the area.

ACDC7D9B-BCEC-4793-B7F2-879583BF0A85.jpeg

source - https://www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/Snowy Mountains Special Activation Precinct draft Master Plan (1).pdf
 

Dropbear

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There was a very interesting article in the National Geographic a few years ago that pointed out that while the visitation stats of American national parks remained strong, the park visitor demographic was mostly very white, and was also ageing rapidly over recent decades. Younger and more diverse groups generally weren't making the close personal connections with natural places as the people who created the parks in the first place.

It could well be very similar here. So with Australia's population expanding rapidly (pre-covid), it is vital for our national parks to be inclusive, and to consider minimal impact strategies that will enable more people to visit.

The raised walkway from Thredbo is one example. Many people use it to experience the majesty of the view from the top of Kunama Namadgi / Kosciuszko. Hopefully they gain the impression that these natural places are worth maintaining.

After all, national parks will only exist for as long as the majority of people recognise their value.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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Legs, I don’t think anyone here is saying they don’t want people to enjoy the park. They are just suggesting that further development would likely cross the line in terms of what is acceptable in a national park. The cantilever viewing deck at porcupine rocks and the helicopter drop offs as an example. The parks is perfectly accessible in its current state. More so than most due to the existing resort infrastructure as well as Snowy Hyrdo roads etc.

This map shows what will go to the NSW planning department. NPWS will lose a great deal of control over the area.

ACDC7D9B-BCEC-4793-B7F2-879583BF0A85.jpeg

source - https://www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/Snowy Mountains Special Activation Precinct draft Master Plan (1).pdf
As you know that area covers an enormous percentage of the park - what - you say it is only the bottom right hand corner that is already significantly developed?

I don't know what form the cantilever deck will take, but I bet you anything that it won't be like the Grand Canyon one. There would be no point as it would project over scrub a few metres below. But there is every reason to have an accessible viewing deck there. It is one of the best views on the eastern side of the park. It could even be tucked in below the skyline and between the rocks and be as unobtrusive as the platform at Charlotte Pass. Remember that?

And helicopters. When I were lad we had jet fighters flying up the valleys.

As to why I think people are trying to exclude people, have a read of some of the posts here. People are objecting to anything that makes access easier. And you have Kletterer who objects and doesn't know why.

This thing is a national park. Look at the history of development in the park. Generally very sensitive. Don't hold your breath in the expectation of casinos and neon lights.
 

Kletterer

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Hold on- what am I objecting to Legs ? :D I forgot due to all of those Machiavellian ramblings. Something about an Onsen festival in Selwyn ?
 

Telemark Phat

Pass the butter
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There's the rub. It has to be a wilderness experience to be OK. A mere experience is not good enough. You will let people enjoy the park on your terms.

Weren't you the bloke who was up in arms because Vic Parks protected a First Nations cultural site in the Grampians? I bet you fret about restricted climbing access all over the place.
We have 96% of Australia to have city, urban, semi rural and rural experiences in. I on't think 4% of the country is too much to reserve for wilderness experiences.
 

Telemark Phat

Pass the butter
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Legs, I don’t think anyone here is saying they don’t want people to enjoy the park. They are just suggesting that further development would likely cross the line in terms of what is acceptable in a national park. The cantilever viewing deck at porcupine rocks and the helicopter drop offs as an example. The parks is perfectly accessible in its current state. More so than most due to the existing resort infrastructure as well as Snowy Hyrdo roads etc.

This map shows what will go to the NSW planning department. NPWS will lose a great deal of control over the area.

ACDC7D9B-BCEC-4793-B7F2-879583BF0A85.jpeg

source - https://www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/Snowy Mountains Special Activation Precinct draft Master Plan (1).pdf
You're not quite right. The department of planning is the aproving authority for development in the Park. Orgasionationally the Parks fit under Planning.

What the SAP will do is make Barrilaro as minister for the regions responsible for development within the SAP districts.
 
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Telemark Phat

Pass the butter
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There was a very interesting article in the National Geographic a few years ago that pointed out that while the visitation stats of American national parks remained strong, the park visitor demographic was mostly very white, and was also ageing rapidly over recent decades. Younger and more diverse groups generally weren't making the close personal connections with natural places as the people who created the parks in the first place.

It could well be very similar here. So with Australia's population expanding rapidly (pre-covid), it is vital for our national parks to be inclusive, and to consider minimal impact strategies that will enable more people to visit.

The raised walkway from Thredbo is one example. Many people use it to experience the majesty of the view from the top of Kunama Namadgi / Kosciuszko. Hopefully they gain the impression that these natural places are worth maintaining.

After all, national parks will only exist for as long as the majority of people recognise their value.
I'd love to know the numbers here. Intuitively I hink we do a lot better, but I haven't seen any data.
 
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Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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Yep, a luxury experience is by definition exclusionary. Who's the snob?

Gotta love class warfare.
The luxury experience doesn't exclude your fervent desire to subsist on roots and leaves. It is something extra not a zero sum.
We have 96% of Australia to have city, urban, semi rural and rural experiences in. I on't think 4% of the country is too much to reserve for wilderness experiences.
You can still have wilderness experiences in the vast expanses of the park that are not included in these proposals.
 

Telemark Phat

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The luxury experience doesn't exclude your fervent desire to subsist on roots and leaves. It is something extra not a zero sum.
If you're going to admit you don't have a defendable argument you need a better straw man than that. I suggest oats rather than cooch.

By definition luxury eperiences are zero sum. Go sit at a table in Kareela and start eatng you're packed lunch and see how far you get.
 

Telemark Phat

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You can still have wilderness experiences in the vast expanses of the park that are not included in these proposals.
I've surveyed people who walked from Top Station to Kosci. They all felt they had a significant wilderness experience. Who are you to define what a wilderness experience is and where one may or may not have a wilderness experience.
 

Alleve

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Jun 17, 2019
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And helicopters. When I were lad we had jet fighters flying up the valleys.

As to why I think people are trying to exclude people, have a read of some of the posts here. People are objecting to anything that makes access easier. And you have Kletterer who objects and doesn't know why.

This thing is a national park. Look at the history of development in the park. Generally very sensitive. Don't hold your breath in the expectation of casinos and neon lights.
Firstly, just because there used to be jet fighters flying up the valleys doesn't mean there should continue to be. I fail to see how rich people flying helicopters around the park can be justified in any way.

Secondly, the objection to ease of access hasn't got anything to do with wanting to exclude people. Nobody has expressed, or implied, any desire to exclude people for the sake of excluding people. Increasing ease of access inherently means more damage to the park, both through the installation and operation of infrastructure, and the increase in visitor numbers. I personally support building a gondola to increase ease of access, although I'm not convinced it's financially viable. Any other increased ease of access to the park causes too much damage. If me not wanting roads widened, paths widened, another ski-tube built means I'm excluding people, so be it. The KNP is more important.

Thirdly, the history of development in the park isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of the future. The SAP changes things from a planning perspective, much for the worse. Read above the discussion about Barilaro, what's in the SAP, how the power changes, etc.
The luxury experience doesn't exclude your fervent desire to subsist on roots and leaves. It is something extra not a zero sum.
Why are we all getting so heated over this? It's a conversation about government policy lol*

*not intended as an insult
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
71,394
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If you're going to admit you don't have a defendable argument you need a better straw man than that. I suggest oats rather than cooch.

By definition luxury eperiences are zero sum. Go sit at a table in Kareela and start eatng you're packed lunch and see how far you get.
Who doesn't have a defensible argument? Yo can sit on a log outside Kareela and eat your packed lunch.

Can you explain why (say) 20 people on a luxury tour stops anyone else from having a wander? That would be a zero sum.
I've surveyed people who walked from Top Station to Kosci. They all felt they had a significant wilderness experience. Who are you to define what a wilderness experience is and where one may or may not have a wilderness experience.
Would you call it a wilderness experience? I wouldn't. You do realise that not even the Main Range is included in that area?
What was that about a rub ?
I'm pretty sure I know what you are rubbing. How are you going with your list of objections?
 

Alleve

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It is pretty rare and noteworthy these days.
The only plane I've ever seen was that Boeing that they were retiring. Pretty good view of it from the Cruiser. Other than that, all I've ever seen are hospital helicopters picking up injured people and NPWS helicopters for trail construction in summer. Maybe I'm unlucky
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
71,394
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Coastal suburban boonies.
Firstly, just because there used to be jet fighters flying up the valleys doesn't mean there should continue to be. I fail to see how rich people flying helicopters around the park can be justified in any way.

Secondly, the objection to ease of access hasn't got anything to do with wanting to exclude people. Nobody has expressed, or implied, any desire to exclude people for the sake of excluding people. Increasing ease of access inherently means more damage to the park, both through the installation and operation of infrastructure, and the increase in visitor numbers. I personally support building a gondola to increase ease of access, although I'm not convinced it's financially viable. Any other increased ease of access to the park causes too much damage. If me not wanting roads widened, paths widened, another ski-tube built means I'm excluding people, so be it. The KNP is more important.

Thirdly, the history of development in the park isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of the future. The SAP changes things from a planning perspective, much for the worse. Read above the discussion about Barilaro, what's in the SAP, how the power changes, etc.

Why are we all getting so heated over this? It's a conversation about government policy lol*

*not intended as an insult
You'll have to talk to Telemark Phat. Luxury people are not allowed.

The proposed infrastructure concentrates users into hardened areas. That's what the Summit path did, very successfully. Even Telemark Phat approves of sacrificial areas.
 

Billy_Buttons

Part of the Furniture
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The only plane I've ever seen was that Boeing that they were retiring. Pretty good view of it from the Cruiser. Other than that, all I've ever seen are hospital helicopters picking up injured people and NPWS helicopters for trail construction in summer. Maybe I'm unlucky
A C130 flew low over Thredbo in August last year. I was the only one looking up at it in awe whilst eating a donut or two.
 
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skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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The only plane I've ever seen was that Boeing that they were retiring. Pretty good view of it from the Cruiser. Other than that, all I've ever seen are hospital helicopters picking up injured people and NPWS helicopters for trail construction in summer. Maybe I'm unlucky

We watched a C130 stooge up Kosi way last Thursday. We heard it (pretty recognisable) and had to search the sky for it.

They do not do this often and their flight lines are pretty tidy these days. I do not have an issue with it at the current level.

DSC00363.JPG


DSC00364.JPG
 

Alleve

One of Us
Jun 17, 2019
691
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You'll have to talk to Telemark Phat. Luxury people are not allowed.

The proposed infrastructure concentrates users into hardened areas. That's what the Summit path did, very successfully. Even Telemark Phat approves of sacrificial areas.
Nobody ever said luxury people weren't allowed. The problem comes from when we allow the park and/or other people's enjoyment of the park get ruined in the pursuit of creating luxury, ie allowing the helicopters.

Saying that we're trying to ban luxury people is misleading, and it's also a pretty poor attempt at a strawman
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
71,394
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Coastal suburban boonies.
Nobody ever said luxury people weren't allowed. The problem comes from when we allow the park and/or other people's enjoyment of the park get ruined in the pursuit of creating luxury, ie allowing the helicopters.

Saying that we're trying to ban luxury people is misleading, and it's also a pretty poor attempt at a strawman
Telemark Phat did. He thinks it's a zero sum game. Luxury in, plebs out. We don't know what Kletterer thinks.

Ferchrissakes, if people ruin your experience go to the north end.
 

Kletterer

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Whats wrong with gearing things toward affordable accommodation ? How much of this money is going towards feral animal control . Does it include a Hawkweed monitoring program? The bulk of the infrastructure proposals are fine - but shit like the Onsen is what I object to . Old Currango Homestead really needs on site accomodation too does it ?
 
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Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
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Coastal suburban boonies.
Whats wrong with gearing things toward affordable accommodation ? How much of this money is going towards feral animal control . Does it include a Hawkweed monitoring program? The bulk of the infrastructure proposals are fine - but shit like the Onsen is what I object to . Old Currango Homestead really needs on site accomodation too does it ?
Is anything precluding these things?
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
71,394
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Coastal suburban boonies.
Whats wrong with gearing things toward affordable accommodation ? How much of this money is going towards feral animal control . Does it include a Hawkweed monitoring program? The bulk of the infrastructure proposals are fine - but shit like the Onsen is what I object to . Old Currango Homestead really needs on site accomodation too does it ?
Actually, it seems that Kletterer agrees with me. It's just taken a while for him to work it out.
 

Untele-whippet

beard stroker
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Charming. Are you finally realising that all your froth is about excluding people from the park?
No one is excluded unless unfortunately they have physically lost the use of their legs.
Life style choice of lethargy and slothfulness is not an excuse for inclusion.
Access is egalitarian not elitist.
 

Untele-whippet

beard stroker
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Another excluder.
No an includer, not a lowest common denominator, commercial , lazy person advocate.
I recommend all people should get off their arses, get healthy and learn to use their legs and brains to be independent again.
As soon as people are required to pay for access and guidance for entry to a NP that is exclusion darhling...
 

Kletterer

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Actually, it seems that Kletterer agrees with me. It's just taken a while for him to work it out.
Perhaps partially true . I think you didnt realise my objections were minimal . They are however significant to me. The threat of procurement and where it leads to is what many of us a concerned with.
 
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Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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No an includer, not a lowest common denominator, commercial , lazy person advocate.
I recommend all people should get off their arses, get healthy and learn to use their legs and brains to be independent again.
As soon as people are required to pay for access and guidance for entry to a NP that is exclusion darhling...
So you include fit people, but exclude lard arses because they don't meet your standards? Are you serious?
Perhaps partially true . I think you didnt realise my objections were minimal . They are however significant to me. The threat of procurement and where it leads to is what many of us a concerned with.
I invited you, multiple times, to express your objections. A simple, rational response that was a challenge for you. And you expect me to take you seriously?
 

Untele-whippet

beard stroker
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So you include fit people, but exclude lard arses because they don't meet your standards? Are you serious?

I invited you, multiple times, to express your objections. A simple, rational response that was a challenge for you. And you expect me to take you seriously?
Yes, people need to be responsible for their own deliberate lifestyle choices.
Rights vs responsibilities.
Can’t demand to have your cake and eat it too unless you consider yourself incredibly entitled and elitist not egalitarian.
 

Kletterer

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So you include fit people, but exclude lard arses because they don't meet your standards? Are you serious?

I invited you, multiple times, to express your objections. A simple, rational response that was a challenge for you. And you expect me to take you seriously?
Perhaps i chose to ignore your invitation old boy. I already expressed my objections in writing to somewhere else .
 
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Nidecker

A Local
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That was actually my point. The infrastructure is so old and inadequate. The technology is available to modernize the sewage treatment, the water supply, the buildings to deliver a far more ecologically viable offering.

I understand your position and I don't disagree. My position is that the unsatisfactory, environmental aspects of the resorts need to be upgraded, either as part of or prior to any allowed development.

Yes I would like to see a small and considered expansion to accommodate the growing number of guest on mountain only, ie runs, lifts. I don't agree with increasing bed numbers within KNP. Any on mountain expansion would need to be preceded by infrastructure upgrades to sewage etc.

I agree with you.

Actually ski resorts are more unique than most other developments in sensitive areas, in that they generate enormous revenue. Enough that it would be a small % of overall revenue required to modernize facilities and practices.

Now the requirement to do this (much like the new fire compliance rules) might cause some of the incumbents to exit their holdings, but better this than further pollute the park.

Additional development alongside stringent new rules for all of the park developments could result in extra capacity with less impact than is currently the case.

Just needs to be managed!
 

Alleve

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Another excluder.
They literally said "No-one is excluded" and your response is "another excluder". I'm half convinced you're deliberately trolling because that's the most obvious point I think I've ever seen anyone misinterpret. Plus you call someone a f-wit. You've been nothing but provocative and aggressive the whole time. What's the end game?
 

Untele-whippet

beard stroker
Ski Pass
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Jeeezus. Gatekeeper, anyone?
I hope any submission you make is a little more temperate.
Maybe all those climbing routes you climbed back in the day need to be bolted to allow all those masses of young sport climbers access to a resource that is denied to them because they are not skilled enough to climb them in an environmentally friendly and sustainable manner?
Trad climbing is surely a gatekeeper elitism.
Should hard cutting edge routes be chipped down to allow the masses to climb them and not be restricted to the fit and talented?
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
71,394
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They literally said "No-one is excluded" and your response is "another excluder". I'm half convinced you're deliberately trolling because that's the most obvious point I think I've ever seen anyone misinterpret. Plus you call someone a f-wit. You've been nothing but provocative and aggressive the whole time. What's the end game?
They said no one is excluded provided they are not disabled, fat or otherwise disabled. Is English your seconfd language?
Maybe all those climbing routes you climbed back in the day need to be bolted to allow all those masses of young sport climbers access to a resource that is denied to them because they are not skilled enough to climb them in an environmentally friendly and sustainable manner?
Trad climbing is surely a gatekeeper elitism.
Should hard cutting edge routes be chipped down to allow the masses to climb them and not be restricted to the fit and talented?
What? Are you serious?
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
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Stay On Topic. @Legs Akimbo thats enough trolling/ derailing for today . And personal abuse will not be tolerated either.
I think I am on topic. I can't speak for others. And you.

If there is one thing here I am completely contemptuous of it is the misuse of moderator powers.

Is the exclusion of ugly fat disabled people OK? I am hoping for a cogent, reasoned argument explaining what's wrong with this proposal. It can't be that hard.
 

Kletterer

Thredbo Doughnut Tragic
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I think I am on topic. I can't speak for others. And you.

If there is one thing here I am completely contemptuous of it is the misuse of moderator powers.

Is the exclusion of ugly fat disabled people OK? I am hoping for a cogent, reasoned argument explaining what's wrong with this proposal. It can't be that hard.
You know where the report button is.
 
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