SAP Article - Privatising KNP

Ian D

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Yep, elite athlete compared to frail pensioner.

Not elitism, oh hang on elite athlete .....
 
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Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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I'm struggling to understand how you haven't got it because Dropbear put it about as simply as it can be put, and you've still managed to somehow misunderstand it.

Management flights help everyone and impact everyone. On balance, they are good.

Commercial flights help a few, but impact everyone. On balance, they are bad.

The noise is an impact. It's acceptable when it's offset by public gain. It's not acceptable when the public gets nothing, and has to deal with the impact regardless.

Its got nothing to do with who's in the helicopter. Stop trying to manipulate what other people have said. If you're going to argue against someone, argue against what they've actually said.
The initial complaint was about the noise. It clearly isn't that because management flights are, apparently, a Good Thing. Then it must be about the contents of the helicopter. Eventually we get to the usual tired old tropes of rich bastards....
 
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Dropbear

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The initial complaint was about the noise. It clearly isn't that because management flights are, apparently, a Good Thing. Then it must be about the contents of the helicopter. Eventually we get to the usual tired old tropes of rich bastards....

No, you're just baiting me. I told you that my problems with commercial flights are noise and carbon emissions.
 
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Telezacski

A Local
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But if someone is mad enough to pay for a 5 star getaway why shouldn't they? Provided the great unwashed can still go down the path for a dip in the pool. After all, Yarrangobilly started life as a guest house. I don't subscribe to the theory that visiting a national park must be a character building experience.

Who will be "locked out of the park"? How?
Yarrangobilly didn’t start out life as a guest house, access to the caves came first, 5 years later the pool and a further five years later the guest house.

why does every experience in the park have to be five star and expensive? Why do you want to lock the great unwashed and those who can’t afford the day spa out?

I don’t subscribe to the theory that everyday Australians should be locked out from enjoying the parks. Not every beach front accommodation has to be five star, not every slope side accommodation has to be five star, not every building in a national park has to be renovated to look like a parlour in down town Paddington.

There is an old saying “fighting for peace is like effing for virginity”! Why build perfect access to every bit of wilderness at the risk of destroying the fabric that makes it wilderness? Do we destroy wilderness to provide access to wilderness?

Our resorts are on the edge of significant wilderness areas and these areas need to be protected. The area the resorts are in, I see as state Forrest and sure they can be managed separately but in acknowledgment of what they border.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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Yarrangobilly didn’t start out life as a guest house, access to the caves came first, 5 years later the pool and a further five years later the guest house.

why does every experience in the park have to be five star and expensive? Why do you want to lock the great unwashed and those who can’t afford the day spa out?

I don’t subscribe to the theory that everyday Australians should be locked out from enjoying the parks. Not every beach front accommodation has to be five star, not every slope side accommodation has to be five star, not every building in a national park has to be renovated to look like a parlour in down town Paddington.

There is an old saying “fighting for peace is like effing for virginity”! Why build perfect access to every bit of wilderness at the risk of destroying the fabric that makes it wilderness? Do we destroy wilderness to provide access to wilderness?

Our resorts are on the edge of significant wilderness areas and these areas need to be protected. The area the resorts are in, I see as state Forrest and sure they can be managed separately but in acknowledgment of what they border.
Where on earth do people get this idea that I want to lock anyone out? You can still wander off and pitch a tent. Or stay in some fleabag accommodation somewhere. This plan doesn't lock anyone out, and constantly repeating nonsense doesn't stop it being nonsense.

If you are serious about protecting wilderness ban people. Or mountain bikes. This bullshit about protecting wilderness is just that. There is no development in designated wilderness areas. What this plan covers is areas that, one way or another and to varying degrees are already developed. Mostly it is the area between the Snowy River and the Alpine Way. That is the existing resorts and the road corridors.
 

Majikthise

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While there are many names in that letter that are "activists" for want of a better word, there are also many , many names that have a deep understanding of KNP. I have never seen such a quality list of eminent ecologists and parks folk on such a document before. If folk like Worboys, for example, are prepared to put there name to it, then I think that should ring alarm bells for the rest of us.
An independent review of KNP as outlined in the open letter seems the prudent starting point
 
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Telezacski

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Where on earth do people get this idea that I want to lock anyone out? You can still wander off and pitch a tent. Or stay in some fleabag accommodation somewhere. This plan doesn't lock anyone out, and constantly repeating nonsense doesn't stop it being nonsense.

If you are serious about protecting wilderness ban people. Or mountain bikes. This bullshit about protecting wilderness is just that. There is no development in designated wilderness areas. What this plan covers is areas that, one way or another and to varying degrees are already developed. Mostly it is the area between the Snowy River and the Alpine Way. That is the existing resorts and the road corridors.
Mountain bikes are banned from wilderness areas, except on service roads I.e one or two roads only.

your advocating changing historic buildings to five star resorts, the price will go up to stay there. Saying your not wanting to lock people out and advocating for the exact change that will lock people out are actions which speak louder than words.

I have seen the proposed changes to Yarrangobilly, Currango and Kiandra, have you? These changes are not small, they are not insignificant and they will change the fabric of the places. If this approach is being taken to all proposed changes Kosci will be a theme park not a national park.
 

Alleve

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Well that must make an enormous difference. I don't quite see how.
Try actually reading what someone has said for once instead of manipulating it to mean something else.
The initial complaint was about the noise. It clearly isn't that because management flights are, apparently, a Good Thing. Then it must be about the contents of the helicopter. Eventually we get to the usual tired old tropes of rich bastards....
As explained before, both management flights and commercial flights make noise.

ON BALANCE, management flights are acceptable because they help EVERYONE. EVERYONE deals with the impact, and EVERYONE gains from it. Management flights are also done for the wellbeing of the park.

ON BALANCE, commercial flights are unacceptable because they help A SMALL FEW who don't even need them. EVERYONE deals with the impact, but only A FEW gain. Commercial flights also DON'T help the park at all.

Both flights make noise. Management flights make up for that impact, so they're acceptable. Commercial flights have zero upside.

This is really simple stuff. A ten year old could understand what the point is, and I'm frankly starting to become concerned you haven't figured out what we're saying yet.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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Mar 3, 1999
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Mountain bikes are banned from wilderness areas, except on service roads I.e one or two roads only.

your advocating changing historic buildings to five star resorts, the price will go up to stay there. Saying your not wanting to lock people out and advocating for the exact change that will lock people out are actions which speak louder than words.

I have seen the proposed changes to Yarrangobilly, Currango and Kiandra, have you? These changes are not small, they are not insignificant and they will change the fabric of the places. If this approach is being taken to all proposed changes Kosci will be a theme park not a national park.
Have you noticed that no one can stay at Yarrangobilly, Currango or Kiandra now? You are right. The price will go up from no price at all to some price. Oh noes!! Existing buildings being repurposed. Buildings out of which people are locked now becoming available. How dare things become more accessible. Keep the great washed out.

You probably haven't noticed what NPWS has been doing throughout its properties for the last ~5 years. Everything from lighthouse keepers' houses up and down the coast to shearers' quarters at Kinchega. All converted to holiday accommodation. Probably "privatised" in your universe. You have so much to unwind. Best start now.
 

Bogongpeaks

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Have you noticed that no one can stay at Yarrangobilly, Currango or Kiandra now? You are right. The price will go up from no price at all to some price. Oh noes!! Existing buildings being repurposed. Buildings out of which people are locked now becoming available. How dare things become more accessible. Keep the great washed out.

You probably haven't noticed what NPWS has been doing throughout its properties for the last ~5 years. Everything from lighthouse keepers' houses up and down the coast to shearers' quarters at Kinchega. All converted to holiday accommodation. Probably "privatised" in your universe. You have so much to unwind. Best start now.
I think you need to actually read the National Parks website before making these incorrect comments. It isn't that hard to see that you can book accomodation in these areas in the original buildings.



 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
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Coastal suburban boonies.
Try actually reading what someone has said for once instead of manipulating it to mean something else.

As explained before, both management flights and commercial flights make noise.

ON BALANCE, management flights are acceptable because they help EVERYONE. EVERYONE deals with the impact, and EVERYONE gains from it. Management flights are also done for the wellbeing of the park.

ON BALANCE, commercial flights are unacceptable because they help A SMALL FEW who don't even need them. EVERYONE deals with the impact, but only A FEW gain. Commercial flights also DON'T help the park at all.

Both flights make noise. Management flights make up for that impact, so they're acceptable. Commercial flights have zero upside.

This is really simple stuff. A ten year old could understand what the point is, and I'm frankly starting to become concerned you haven't figured out what we're saying yet.
It's like something out of Animal Farm. Some flights good. Some flights bad.
I think you need to actually read the National Parks website before making these incorrect comments. It isn't that hard to see that you can book accomodation in these areas in the original buildings.



So people are already excluded from these places?

I get confused.
 

Kletterer

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What is this misconception that wealthy visitors want 4- 5 star service ? The majority of the folks I have met camping in KNP wilderness areas near remote Huts etc have been very well off. They are not there in a tent because there is no other option. They are there because they wish to escape a cluttered world of concrete, glass and capitalistic symbolism.
 

teletripper

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So it's not the noise. It's that you are not in the helicopter. Got it.
As I understand it the commercial helicopter flights are linked to providing a fast track transport option for well heeled tourist from Cooma or Jindabyne to the resort areas. You can bet that part of that flight will be a scenic turn around the summit area away from the resort on the way. (Which by the way they can currently do as long as they do not land and they stay at least 500’ of the deck as part of the Parks ‘Fly neighbourly agreement’ with aircraft operators running scenic flights over the park at present and CASA rules.) I do actually object to the commercial helicopter because of the noise and disturbance of my quite enjoyment of the Park. (just like drones). I visit the main range and other areas of KNP away from the resorts to enjoy the relatively quite solitude and natural experience that one would hope to find in a National Park by definition. If I wanted the experience to be buzzed by helicopters or aircraft all day I would be visiting the end of the Mascot runway at Botany or Majura park shopping centre. Approving commercial aircraft landing and transport to the resorts essentially expands the footprint of the resorts and their impact on the surrounding areas of the park.
 

Telezacski

A Local
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Have you noticed that no one can stay at Yarrangobilly, Currango or Kiandra now? You are right. The price will go up from no price at all to some price. Oh noes!! Existing buildings being repurposed. Buildings out of which people are locked now becoming available. How dare things become more accessible. Keep the great washed out.

You probably haven't noticed what NPWS has been doing throughout its properties for the last ~5 years. Everything from lighthouse keepers' houses up and down the coast to shearers' quarters at Kinchega. All converted to holiday accommodation. Probably "privatised" in your universe. You have so much to unwind. Best start now.
Legs this statement shows you have zero idea on what is happening.

I have been staying at Yarrangobilly, Currango and Kiandra for the last 14 years in National park accommodation. Yes Kiandra is now off limits due to the fires.

I am aware of the changes to the buildings you speak of, as my better half has been behind many of the changes and adaptations of those buildings ensuring their historical fabric is retained in all cases.

the changes Sap are suggesting, take these buildings from functional dwellings which provide an insight into our past to five star resorts with zero consideration of their history.
 

Telezacski

A Local
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As I understand it the commercial helicopter flights are linked to providing a fast track transport option for well heeled tourist from Cooma or Jindabyne to the resort areas. You can bet that part of that flight will be a scenic turn around the summit area away from the resort on the way. (Which by the way they can currently do as long as they do not land and they stay at least 500’ of the deck as part of the Parks ‘Fly neighbourly agreement’ with aircraft operators running scenic flights over the park at present and CASA rules. I do actually object to the commercial helicopter because of the noise and disturbance of my quite enjoyment of the Park. (just like drones). I visit the main range and other areas of KNP away from the resorts to enjoy the relatively quite solitude and natural experience that one would hope to find in a National Park by definition. If I wanted the experience to be buzzed by helicopters or aircraft all day I would be visiting the end of the Mascot runway at Botany or Majura park shopping centre. Approving commercial aircraft landing and transport to the resorts essentially expands the footprint of the resorts and their impact on the surrounding areas of the park.
I thought the 500 foot requirement was to do with Casa not parks?
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
71,394
49,287
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Coastal suburban boonies.
As I understand it the commercial helicopter flights are linked to providing a fast track transport option for well heeled tourist from Cooma or Jindabyne to the resort areas. You can bet that part of that flight will be a scenic turn around the summit area away from the resort on the way. (Which by the way they can currently do as long as they do not land and they stay at least 500’ of the deck as part of the Parks ‘Fly neighbourly agreement’ with aircraft operators running scenic flights over the park at present and CASA rules.) I do actually object to the commercial helicopter because of the noise and disturbance of my quite enjoyment of the Park. (just like drones). I visit the main range and other areas of KNP away from the resorts to enjoy the relatively quite solitude and natural experience that one would hope to find in a National Park by definition. If I wanted the experience to be buzzed by helicopters or aircraft all day I would be visiting the end of the Mascot runway at Botany or Majura park shopping centre. Approving commercial aircraft landing and transport to the resorts essentially expands the footprint of the resorts and their impact on the surrounding areas of the park.
Legs this statement shows you have zero idea on what is happening.

I have been staying at Yarrangobilly, Currango and Kiandra for the last 14 years in National park accommodation. Yes Kiandra is now off limits due to the fires.

I am aware of the changes to the buildings you speak of, as my better half has been behind many of the changes and adaptations of those buildings ensuring their historical fabric is retained in all cases.

the changes Sap are suggesting, take these buildings from functional dwellings which provide an insight into our past to five star resorts with zero consideration of their history.
Can I introduce you both to the concept of the straw man? It is creating a scenario to win your argument. Most adults fall about laughing when they see it.

It is equally possible that the flight paths will follow the Grand Canyon model where flight paths are fixed on routes to minimise impact. I don't know, but nor do you.

It is perfectly possible that the re-design of buildings will be sensitive to heritage values.
 

Telezacski

A Local
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But effectively impossible for many, making it irrelevant.
I can no longer climb to the top of Everest can we build a gondola?

During my Uni days I did some work with a guy who used to take people in wheel chairs caving and doing all sorts of amazing activities. Yes it wasn’t for everyone.

But why destroy part of an area so a few extra people can possibly enjoy it.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
71,394
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Coastal suburban boonies.
I can no longer climb to the top of Everest can we build a gondola?

During my Uni days I did some work with a guy who used to take people in wheel chairs caving and doing all sorts of amazing activities. Yes it wasn’t for everyone.

But why destroy part of an area so a few extra people can possibly enjoy it.
Which area is being destroyed?
 

teletripper

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Can I introduce you both to the concept of the straw man? It is creating a scenario to win your argument. Most adults fall about laughing when they see it.

It is equally possible that the flight paths will follow the Grand Canyon model where flight paths are fixed on routes to minimise impact. I don't know, but nor do you.

It is perfectly possible that the re-design of buildings will be sensitive to heritage values.
And again that is just it. As you say they may follow set designated flight paths, they may not. There is no detail in the SAP or POM amendments that indicate that they will restrict the aircraft to set flight paths or maximum number of flights each day. I do not trust our current deputy premier and his personal view on the value of our National Parks and public lands and his pro private commercialisation agenda for them. This is all about giving away our rights for future scrutiny and objection of proposals, based on ‘concept plans’ and ‘thought bubbles’ In favour of commercialisation rather than environmental or social benefit or outcomes. Trust me I work for the government.
 

canestocks

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Has anyone here stayed in any of the National Parks accommodation? I have looked into it in passing for a few places and have been turned off by the prices. A bit exclusive?

Though I am not in favour of increasing the level of private concessions on public lands.
Submission sent.
 

climberman

CloudRide1000 Legend
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Has anyone here stayed in any of the National Parks accommodation? I have looked into it in passing for a few places and have been turned off by the prices. A bit exclusive?
I’ve stayed at Waste Point in one of the houses. Really nice. Was in off-season (out of any school holidays), and we were a group of fishos, but it wasn’t much each a night for a group.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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And again that is just it. As you say they may follow set designated flight paths, they may not. There is no detail in the SAP or POM amendments that indicate that they will restrict the aircraft to set flight paths or maximum number of flights each day. I do not trust our current deputy premier and his personal view on the value of our National Parks and public lands and his pro private commercialisation agenda for them. This is all about giving away our rights for future scrutiny and objection of proposals, based on ‘concept plans’ and ‘thought bubbles’ In favour of commercialisation rather than environmental or social benefit or outcomes. Trust me I work for the government.
Best get excited in advance to avoid the rush.
 

Kletterer

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It is perfectly possible that the re-design of buildings will be sensitive to heritage values.
Its not redesign - its additional buildings. Did you actually read it? It happens all the time does it ? Give us some examples in the Australian Alps where numerous buildings were added to a heritage Hut or settlers homestead with overnight accommodation .
 
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Telezacski

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Has anyone here stayed in any of the National Parks accommodation? I have looked into it in passing for a few places and have been turned off by the prices. A bit exclusive?

Though I am not in favour of increasing the level of private concessions on public lands.
Submission sent.
I’ve stayed in a few Currango, Caves House, Wolgal Hut, Waste Point and Green Cape.

some are expensive some are cheap Daffodils at Currango is $140 a night and sleeps six.
 

Dropbear

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Can I introduce you both to the concept of the straw man? It is creating a scenario to win your argument. Most adults fall about laughing when they see it.

I would encourage you to read up on what a straw man actually is, because neither of the 2x cases where you have accused others of this fallacy are actually correct.

The irony is that you yourself have used a straw man fallacy, right here:

The initial complaint was about the noise. It clearly isn't that because management flights are, apparently, a Good Thing. Then it must be about the contents of the helicopter. Eventually we get to the usual tired old tropes of rich bastards....

Let's break it down.

You started by acknowledging that I have complained about noise from commercial helicopters flights.

But then you missed the point that commercial flights are an unacceptable disruption to the public quiet enjoyment of the park because they have negative public impacts, while park management flights are an acceptable disruption because they produce public benefits.

As a result of this failure in understanding (which I suspect could be intentional), you proceeded to try to bait me by building a straw man: by your telling me that my own argument is not about noise, but about something else.

Nope, I'm not playing your games. I'm saying that commercial helicopter flights will be unacceptably noisy and unsustainable. Which is unacceptable.

There are still tissues in the box.

Trolling.
 

Dropbear

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Back on topic.

Majikthise:
I've made submissions both to the SAP and PoM both more or less saying no changes should be made to the KNP precinct without conducting an independent scientific review of the cumulative effects of the many exisiting ecological stresses in times of AGW. (Along the lines proposed in the open letter). With that review then informed decisions can be made. I've also asked for extension of public comments for both.

I've now added these to my submission too.

Submissions close midnight tonight, for anyone who hasn't sent one yet!
 

Ian D

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So someone went through and reported 7 of Legs posts as trolling so to be fair I deleted not only those but about 10 others that were in an equivalent vein targeting him.

This is a fairly emotive topic and it is apparent that there are differing views here, so rather than abuse let's try to explore both sides with some respect.

You want to call people dumb or idiots you loose your rights to post in this thread. Keep that in mind.
 

teletripper

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I thought the 500 foot requirement was to do with Casa not parks?
Both. CASA as the authority for normal flight regs and Parks as the administrator of the Fly Neighbourly Advice (FNA).
Refer pg 141-2 of the current PoM.
There has been several attempts over the decades to establish FNA’s with operators.
Unfortunately the FNA is just that, an advice and really has no teeth, some commercial flight operators are better than others and abide by it, others not so much. Many private pilots/ aircraft operators probably do not even know FNA exist. As for military aircraft that‘s a complete other discussion and often a law unto themselves.
 
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Bogongpeaks

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Following a recent meeting, I have some information about the community consultation process for the master plan. I think this wretched plan will still destroy KNP at this rate. Below is a SLOPES summary.

"About 40% of the input was on matters related to the national park rather than to the SAP masterplan and therefore
more relevant to the Plan of Management than to the masterplan. Submissions on the masterplan were varied but apparently nothing that is likely to change the directions of the masterplan. The masterplan may be amended in light of the comments received but not substantially. Report on submissions received and a final masterplan will be available probably by November when further engagement sessions will be held.
Anthony Evans from NPWS reported on the response to the proposed amendments to the KNP Plan of Management. The intent of the amendments is to facilitate the implementation of the SAP masterplan (changes such as allowing commercial tour vehicle access to Rawsons Pass, helicopter access to resorts and accommodation at Yarrangobilly Caves were nevertheless over and above this). About 900 submissions were received plus a large number of pro-forma letters. Mostly expressing concern at development proposals. Detailed report is in preparation on submissions and proposed response. Anthony did not suggest any likely major changes to the proposed amendments.
Next substantial step will be the drafting of the planning legislation to enable implementation of the masterplan. Three SEPPs to be amended and of particular relevance to SLOPES, the Alpine SEPP. This and the administrative arrangements for it will be of key concern. Activity expected over the next several months; enactment of the legislation anticipated during 2022, early 2023."
 
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Billy_Buttons

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I'd be guessing that things will evaporate into the future sometime because of this Covid recession....and a pending State Election.
 
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climberman

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I'd be guessing that things will evaporate into the future sometime because of this Covid recession....and a pending State Election.
Do you think the election will speed the implementation or slow it? Most of the changes from an expenditure perspective are administrative not capex spend.

My gut is speed it up, but will be interesting to see.
 
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Billy_Buttons

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Do you think the election will speed the implementation or slow it? Most of the changes from an expenditure perspective are administrative not capex spend.

My gut is speed it up, but will be interesting to see.
Well, if Barra gets the boot, I'd say implementation is gooooooone.
 
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