Sequential Turning & Ways of Lurning

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by bawbawbel, May 27, 2017.

?

Have you mastered the Level One White Out Turn?

  1. Tried and Satisfied. Ready for Level Two, please.

    66.7%
  2. Tried and Nearly Died. Not recommended.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Sort of interested.

    33.3%
  4. Please stop trifling with my technique !

    0 vote(s)
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  1. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Return of The Preturn ! Everything old is new again ! The Anticipation moves as recently adopted by several official national ski bodies. A complete progression of drills is under development.


    :) A survey of it's effectiveness will be taken in about 10 years from now.
    Until then, it is caveat emptor !

    A summary follows. It is based on the ease of producing the rotations (core strength) and how critical is the timing of the uncoiling (STOPPING the rotation).
    Links to this progression will be updated in this post.

    Level One:
    1. Snow plough rotations. With even weighting on both skis.
    Every skier should do these, even if only to know how to demonstrate to unbelievers.
    2. Making a Turn from a Traverse

    Level Two:
    Mambo rotations.
    A basic exercise for smooth rotation transfers with linking of turns.

    Level Three:
    Rotation release into the top of the turn. Ligeti's early initiation.
    Making a "still upper body" actually do something useful.

    Level Four:
    Rotation in porridge and powder.
    When your edges don't work or make things worse.

    Level Five:
    Rotation for racers.
    Rotation within the turn so that turn shape adjustment does not reduce speed.
     
    #1 bawbawbel, May 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  2. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    What's wrong with your old thread?
     
  3. crackson

    crackson Addicted Member
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    Don't think in words.
     
  4. Tanuki

    Tanuki Dedicated Member
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    Sonds grt, whre do me sign uppish?
     
  5. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    We will be answering queries from other forums here, as many ban any harping about Harb, or stuff not in their bible.
    One of the worst in this regard, in spite of proclaiming
    "We will be discussing technique peacefully and respectfully. This is not religion; it is skiing",
    are vigilant regarding any blasphemy.
    They typically comment "Youcanski.com are a bunch of hacks. They advocate waist steering as well....."
    and yesterday deleted a post where I suggested that a beginner was prevented from rotating by being fully countered. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    I reckon you should answer stuff in the forums you find it.
     
  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    0001 said "my private instructor tells me that he will just have to unteach your stuff"
    :emoji_bellhop: He would have a hard time introducing it after your style becomes set in concrete. Early is easiest.
    For instance, this rotary turn from a traverse is easily mastered by a skier with 5 days experience. Try it yourself, with and without foot twisting.

    Yet an instructor with the lot will probably say:
    'You may have the usable strength to achieve the goal but the speed at which you do it and ability to regulate pressure are diminished. Pennation angles on the muscles in use (utilising upper body rotation) are in a compromised configuration to achieve efficient smooth transfer of energy. Humans dont turn like this in everyday life for a reason-- to protect the spine. Thats why we have not evolved to a point where this movement works powerfully and smoothly."
    Hmm.. Don't you look before you turn while walking your dog ?
     
    #7 bawbawbel, May 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  8. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    I see 3 questions & no answers.

    It is is Saturday night I spose.
     
  9. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    :emoji_bellhop: I am really a sensitive soul. I feel insulted by thread locking, personal denigration and mass deletions. And they waste my time.
     
  10. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Addicted Member
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    I think I saw a couple of these when I was in Canada earlier this year.

    No 1 - the reverse pole plant. Pushing off the right hand pole to turn left.

    No 2 - the Newtonian swing. Throwing the shoulders around in an uphill direction to turn the skis downhill.

    Am I on the right track?
     
  11. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Lonely
     
  12. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Nothing that the French Canadians do is wrong. I just looks crazy, but it works. Just like a 2CV.
     
  13. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    Moderators. Your task has been defined. Step up. Do the job.
     
  14. stansi

    stansi Dedicated Member
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    bawbawbel take note.



    There's nothing locked over there. Go home.
     
    #14 stansi, May 27, 2017
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  15. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    But there is a serious deficiency in the mandated ski instruction progression which concentrates exclusively on footwork.
    Just a matter of time before a class action by skiers damaged by getting into situations that they were never taught to get out of.
    I do see lots of well rounded skiers in Colorado, but in corpulence rather than technique.
     
  16. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    An actual serious reply post about the elephant in my head is so rare that I hesitate to critique le prize.
    But I will. It should be "Throwing the shoulders around FROM an uphill direction".
    Because strong coiling initiation depends on a pulse from upper body ROTATION, rather than upper body POSITION, one can run out of rotation room by excessive slow "skiing into counter" in the previous turn.
    Even skiers who have most moves dialed often cannot see, appreciate, or perform this simple action.
    For this reason they should start my course from Level One..
     
  17. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Well, I tried.
    Banned from Pugski today for "Causing Problems" :(
    And their motto is "Skiing Is Not A Religion"
    They thought that I was stirring when I posted a pic of my favourite ski boots. Out of date? They can hold 210s strate!
     
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  18. BillyKidd

    BillyKidd Dedicated Member
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    Knew I'd regret reading this post.
     
  19. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Congratulations! As the 400th viewer of this thread, you have won 24/7 support from me as you progress through the six levels of upper body anticipation !
    Others will have to correspond with a bot, such is the response to the new course.
    And that's not all ! You get to do the course twice ! :skier::skier::skier::skier::skier::skier::skier::skier::skier::skier:
     
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  20. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    First we must instill the right approach to rotation skiing.
    Remember when you first experienced extended unweighting? (the slow motion dreamlike state of merging a flex downweight seamlessly after a precision up unweight ? It is a bit like that.
    "Any fool can throw their shoulders around" attitude means that you will miss the boat.
    Reminds me of a hung over late riser peering out of the lodge window and proclaiming
    " The snow out there is absolute rubbish. Let's learn to snowboard today"
     
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  21. Call_me_Ishmael

    Call_me_Ishmael Dedicated Member

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    If I counter the rotation of my hips while gently increasing the vertical amplitude of my shoulders I find I slide into a everted neutral position with my feet slightly extending the arc of the turn
    I know I shouldn't but I just find that it relaxes the knees into that revolving door theory of maximum recognition
    I think that's probably what you're getting at?
    I'm just hoping this season to spend maybe 99% of my time on the green and blue groomers to try and get that muscle memory that's needed
    I don't want to really try any advanced terrain or decent snow until I have this all pegged
    I think I should be ready to progress to actually skiing safely within 3 to 5 years?
    Or do you think that's maybe ambitious?:(
     
  22. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
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    I like to double pole plant, is this going to be a problem with your system?
     
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  23. Undies

    Undies Part of the Furniture
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    I prefer to triple. The ladies love it.
     
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  24. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
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    BBB, I liked your other thread better, where you were the only one replying to your own posts...... :p
     
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  25. vibe++

    vibe++ Dedicated Member
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    Snowboarding improved my skiing.
     
  26. BillyKidd

    BillyKidd Dedicated Member
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    Lucky f*cking me!:p
     
  27. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I heard that you only rotate in the air. Have you tried holding exercise weights for extra rotations?
     
  28. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Leave your poles at home, Bill. They just get in your wey.
     
  29. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Strict restrictions now apply to students wanting to enter the course at an advanced level. Everyone must now pass the Level One (rotating snowplough) test before progressing. This involves 50 meters of gentle moguls while blindfolded.
    You know that a pilot without instrument rating ends up flying upside down when in a cloud.
    That is because centrifugal force overcomes gravity clues.
    Leaning over one ski disorients a snowplougher by removing the feel for the slope when in whiteout. We don't do that.
    Good to have a survival turn available :).
     
  30. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
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    Have to maintain contact with the snow
     
  31. BillyKidd

    BillyKidd Dedicated Member
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    Phark! :eek::D
     
  32. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Don't mention that to Pugski. They are the J Witnesses of the ski world. Keeping "an open mind " about technique meant that their brains leaked out.
    60 years since the last "New way to ski" (heel push and reverse shoulder in Ski Magazine ).
    Time enough to hobble themselves with a lot of foot fetish.
     
  33. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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    Dont your Femurs turn in your hip sockets BBB?
     
  34. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Yes, but they can turn BEFORE transition without shooting off into the snowgums ! And extension can begin at the same moment. (see Pugski )
    The transferred rotation rebalances the COM and loads the tips.
    Christmas in June !
     
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  35. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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    You may have the usable strength to achieve the goal but the speed at which you do it and ability to regulate pressure are diminished. Pennation angles on the muscles in use (utilising upper body rotation) are in a compromised configuration to achieve efficient smooth transfer of energy. Humans dont turn like this in everyday life for a reason-- to protect the spine. Thats why we have not evolved to a point where this movement works powerfully and smoothly.
     
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  36. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    That is why we start with smooth body rotation throughout the entire previous turn. Otherwise we see violent movements which are not effective because they are not timed correctly.
    In early Ligeti (2012) GS turns we see the outside arm moved backwards instead of the inside arm moving forward to store rotation for release during transition. Same thing, different balance compensation. 5 seconds faster.. mmmm..
     
  37. skichanger

    skichanger Dedicated Member
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    Turn the sound down before you watch this.
     
  38. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    I'll be the first to sign up if you promise to help me ski as well as Adrian Solano

     
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  39. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    Actually I'd be happy if you helped me ski as well as these punters

     
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  40. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    [QUOTE="skichanger, post: 3297920, member: 54560" " If all goes to plan we will be able to arrange tours to some of the other resorts. " [/QUOTE]
    So are you suggesting that we make Myoka Kogan headquarters of the Rotation School ? Thanks, but I don't think we are quite ready to go international yet.
    I will have to ask our Technical Director, Telemarketer Phat.
    [​IMG]
     
    #40 bawbawbel, Jun 4, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  41. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Because it is grassroots, we have no need to turn instruction into a revenue generating process.
    Preferred Level One scenario:
    Morning:
    Dad learns equal pressure snowplough from this thread.
    Afternoon:
    Whole family follow him everywhere.
    Togetherness is good.
     
  42. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    To appreciate the superiority of the Rotated Snowplough, we should itemize the problems with the existing turn.
    Old:
    1. Turn is initiated from across the slope by leaning uphill. Here comes the stupidity of the persistent stem!
    2. Turn is initiated from straight down the slope by leaning onto the proposed outside ski. Feeling of the fall line is instantly lost and the ski continues to load until a lean in the opposite direction counteracts it. Shut your eyes and fall over.
    New:
    Practice running straight down the slope with equal pressure and edging on each ski.
    "Derr.." you say. But you now turn without changing that equal loading.
    How? Rotate your shoulders in the direction that you want to turn and STOP the rotation. And wait for the turn to happen.
    It DOES NOT CONTINUE TO LOAD! You still know which way is down! Shut your eyes and make lots of turns.

    Just like the Infinity Move (look it up) should be the basis of every turn you ever make, Rotation should stay with you forever.
    The gross shoulder moves will be replaced by flickers of hip, arm, and even hand assistance to your perfect turns :)
     
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  43. Call_me_Ishmael

    Call_me_Ishmael Dedicated Member

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    I'm learning so much
    It's like I'm reading The Bible with new eyes and a new heart
     
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  44. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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  45. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Is good. We have both Technical Director AND Entertainment Director on board.
    Fully fledged alpinists have arrived at their state of instinctive skiing by going past the current dogma that the feet must lead the turn.
    It may have taken 10 seasons to approach their nirvana.
    There is no reason why the intermediate skier should not shortcut that process.
    There can be no anticipation unless SOMETHING leads the skis . No?
     
  46. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Thank you, even if you do tend to exaggerate slightly.
    I will edit the summary in the first post of this thread occasionally with links to GIFs and helpful hints.
     
    #46 bawbawbel, Jun 4, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  47. rollyz

    rollyz Dedicated Member

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    All I was ever told was to point the skis down hill and benz de knees.
     
  48. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Is good. A natural style evolves, a mixture of Killy and Barnes.
    Killy hated to have his technique examined, he thought that having any aspect of it in the front of his mind would slow him down.
    As a student of skiing evolution, I note that the 1957 Schaeffler "New Way To Ski" replaced everything that was developed previously.
    Big mistake. Should have incorporated the best of the old and the new.
    Before the first season of the new style, one was supposed to do the following exercises every day for 3 weeks:
    20 Shortswing Jumps
    15 Heel Thrusts to 45 degrees.
    10 Ankle Touches
    5 Comma Bends
    6 Stork Stretches
    2 Buddha Squats
    6 Rock and Roll Stretches
    30 Phantom Chairs
    5 Jackknife Jumps
    10 Stooper's Strut Walk
    3 Slow Roll Falling ( "Falling downhill is safer than falling uphill" ) !
    4 Airplane Spins ( teaches you to do hockey stops )
    8 Lazy Comma Stretches
    12 Dry Skating
    10 Split Jumps
    5 Front Split Jumps

    All that just to make you into a Heel Thruster.
     
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  49. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    " I know I shouldn't " ?
    Your tracks will tell you if you if you are avoiding too much pressure at the end of the turn.
    Big advance ! No more over turning, ski shuddering, somersaults from sliding into frozen lumps.
    Nothing but blue skies from now on !
     
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  50. Jellybeans1000

    Jellybeans1000 Dedicated Member
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    Why do we need a "new way to ski"?
    What is so bad about the way we currently ski?
    Your boot thread looked like a troll on Pugski. That is why you had your pass terminated.