Sequential Turning & Ways of Lurning

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by bawbawbel, May 27, 2017.

?

Have you mastered the Level One White Out Turn?

  1. Tried and Satisfied. Ready for Level Two, please.

    66.7%
  2. Tried and Nearly Died. Not recommended.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Sort of interested.

    33.3%
  4. Please stop trifling with my technique !

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    rotate around ya date and ....... turn up the music.

     
  2. dossa5

    dossa5 Dedicated Member
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    Fixed for him.
    New thread waiting BBB
     
  3. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Maybe it should be "A new way to teach basic skiing"
    Everybody in DaWooduck's movie was skiing with moves that are not in the manual and should be.
    It is true that I sometimes put my foot in it, in spite of my upper body orientation.
    From the movie: " Warning! It is extremely dangerous to ski as a sheep in New Zealand"
    Wanting advice about snow condition for heliski, I approached a group of skiers in the pub and opened the conversation by expressing my delight with a current TV series starring sheepdogs in action. Hmm...got no information :(

    P.S Three of the erudite posters in Pugski had expressed THEIR delight in retaining their rear entries (but in a different forum which was not financed by the ski industry.)
     
  4. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    In amongst all the lovely controlled skiing in this video are some poignant words about skis and skiing surface.

    https://www.apsi.net.au/our-community/our-team

    The skiing and the fashions appear to have devolved concurrently .... along with drink driving laws and sobriety testing :p
     
  5. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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  6. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    That Oz skiing is evolving is a given. It is just not keeping up with the move towards Whole Body Skiing.
    In my opinion, the comment on the 2015 demo that "The Australians demonstrated a very disciplined upper body" was not meant as a compliment. There you go, I have said it.
     
  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    [​IMG] 1968.
    Typical instructor comment on Mr Killy would be:
    "He is in the back seat. The turn can only be completed with a skid."
    Actually, shoulder uncoiling is about to begin. Back to centered. So classy.
     
  8. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Hmm.. Killy offered a "New Way To Ski" in1967. ( I am sure that his articles were ghost written. however.)
    Maybe they appear every 10 year.
     
    #58 bawbawbel, Jun 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  9. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Input, input pls.
    Unfair to ask TP to comment on Oz demos. But what about Jet Turns?
    You know you want to..
     
  10. Call_me_Ishmael

    Call_me_Ishmael Dedicated Member

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    What about jet turns?
    If I accelerate through the turn I find I'm unstable when transitioning weight to the outside foot at the apex?
    Will this technique help?
     
  11. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Yes, transferred rotation will instantly load the tips, provided there is some inclination at that moment.
     
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  12. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    009 said "I suppose you are going to tell us that a jet turn involves shoulders before skis, har har "
    Err..yes. Killy taught Putin the basics in one day.
    But Doug Pfeiffer never did "get it" in 5 years of "translating" Killy for the Americans.
    We can excuse that if we pretend that you need to be an Einstein to understand it.
    His shoulders are not in advance of his skis in SPACE.
    They are ahead of his skis in TIME. :)
     
    #62 bawbawbel, Jun 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017
  13. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Researching Jean-Claude, I found an interesting statement:
    "Illness was responsible for his lack of success at the 1964 winter olympics at innsbruck. It so weakened him that it led him, he claimed, to ski in a different, more efficient way."
    There we go, Bel will make you wel !
     
  14. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Poll at start of thread to determine when to proceed.
    The "below the waist" dogma is much more entrenched than I expected.
    It is causing forum failures, banning, thread locking, militant moderation, post deletions without explanation, and strange explanations involving Clayton's rotations.
    Even if most punters think that a 45% slope is actually 45 degrees, it has the propensity to cause calamity in the couloirs.
     
  15. Call_me_Ishmael

    Call_me_Ishmael Dedicated Member

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    Hi
    I have "a friend" who whenever he initiates a turn whacks his pole on the outside of his outside boot
    He says it "deweights him "
    I don't have the courage to ask him what that actually means
    He's a bit weird and skis 190cm narrow waisted Volkls
     
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  16. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    He is just using it as a "trigger" to time his simultaneous downweight and change of inclination.
    Like many, he is left with a phantom outside pole action which once apon a time stopped an upper body rotation WITHIN the turn by interacting with the snow surface. Hence the "pole touch", about as useful as an appendix..
    I know several people who ski without poles and whack their new inside thigh for the same reason. Works.
     
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  17. Call_me_Ishmael

    Call_me_Ishmael Dedicated Member

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    This is an excellent thread.Excellent
     
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  18. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    There is one situation where NO anticipation is required or desired. This is when performing the purest of pure carves with small inclination on gentle slopes. But then even a shadow of the old outside pole plant will produce an awkward, disjointed turn.
    Watch the second skier here. To his credit, though, he seems to be learning quickly !
     
  19. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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  20. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Where is my dead horse?
    They are assuming that the Arlberg style can be the basis for skiing with least stress on the body.
    Typical Austrian.
    " it is no longer desirable to turn the torso strongly towards the valley. Skiing thus becomes more pleasurable and less strenuous for the muscles and joints.”
    Using the strongest muscle group in the body gently should be more aesthetic than that resurrection of outside poling with "the use of poles as an aid to momentum" , whatever that means. ( aid to rotation ? )
    I rest my case. And my "muscles and joints".
     
  21. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    No. I continue my case for the prosecution.
    As a beginner, what is the worst tip that you can get from a so-called instructor, that will condemn you to years of using an outside pole as a crutch?
    It is "Always face down the hill ".
    Too soon, TOO SOON !
    It should be "When you want to turn, face down the hill."
    The difference is between a static upper body position (useless) and a dynamic upper body position, which can spin you like a top.
     
  22. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Nothing to do with what we are talking about, but here is Christine learning to add the the Gravity Drop to the Infinity Move with McGlashan at Treble Cone.
    " I learned to get over the idea that there is a specific recipe of movements that when combined in a certain way will create awesome skiing. "
    KL, are you game ?
    http://www.thespiritualskier.com/blog
     
  23. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    BBB, how can you learn, improve, and become an awesome skier without a strong consistent skiing recipe that works for all types of terrain. Perhaps, the recipe they are using does not include all of the necessary, or has too many, ingredients and/or instructions.

    add the the Gravity Drop to the Infinity Move... there is certainly more than one way to turn skies and I wonder if it can be done in all types of snow conditions. Cool names though :)

    I only have the name Outside/Inside and you have the name BEL, can we do better names or simply do betterer?
     
  24. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
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    Are they skiing on snowblades? :zzz::zzz::zzz:
     
  25. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    BBB, yes, they need to learn to rotate the upper body, in combination with the appropriate hand/forearm/arm movements, so that they can progress from a snow plough to a parallel turn without feeling like they are going to crash, burn, die, and without the other usual stuff in between, like stemming, stepping, and/or pole planting. Then they will only need to look to their next turn (and down the slope), which is a natural movement, rather than concentrating on all the other stuff which only sort of works and eventually needs to be discarded because it causes very bad habits and probably why many skiers do not progress beyond intermediacy...
     
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  26. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    155 slalom. They thought it would then be easier to make a carve demo just like interski ..


    Just testing how I will post GIFs.. Here where the Bel originated. Preturn while running straight, stop the rotation for the magic transfer.
    Stuff that you do automatically , but the most "serious" skiers won't come at it.

    Thank you, Extremecarving dot com. (and to CERN, for the push-pull turn )
     
    #76 bawbawbel, Jun 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  27. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    So far, so good. Hopefully, EVERYBODY will experiment with the rotary snowplough and rotary traverse turn to get a real feel of how far the upper body has been left behind in your lessons.
    The next exercise is a bit weird, but it is the only one that produces a linked turn with UB (upper body) rotary ALONE.
    Mambo.
    Look at Stein's UB as he turns to skiers left. He has accentuated the movement because the piste slopes away to his right.
    "Looks like he is turning in two directions at once !" Maybe, but his shoulders are only 10 degrees ahead of his feet.
    UB impulse here is created when rotation is stopped. It is doubled if rotation is immediately restarted in the opposite direction.
    Transition is when it should happen.
    There is a vertical and horizontal component. Talk about vertical later on.
     
  28. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Interestingly, perhaps the following questions could be asked/discussed...
    1. Ski techniques which could probably be used to ski all types of terrain
    --- there is probably at least a dozen advanced ski techniques.
    2. Ski techniques that are easy to remember the next year, on the first day and in the first hour, after only 1, 2, or 3 weeks of skiing the previous year...
    --- that means that the ski technique must be consistent recipe for all types of terrain.
    --- have a high basic standard fallback technique that is easy for muscle memory and memory recall.
    --- have a high ski to body motion feeling so that it is easy to repeat, remember, and even picture.
    --- I would suggest that this is only a couple/few ski techniques, and maybe a little more.
    3. Ski techniques with very efficient energy use for all types of terrain...
    --- I would suggest that there is now only 1 or 2 ski techniques, and maybe a little more.
    4. Ski techniques with very low injury rates for all types of terrain...
    --- I would suggest that there is now only 1 or 2 ski techniques.

    I believe that Outside/Inside satisfies all 4 points.
    BBB would you say that BEL satisfies all 4 points.
    BBB which other ski techniques would you say satisfy all 4 points.
     
  29. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    BBB, you know that if the stein mambo hands were to closely follow each other (without lag, with one forearm rotating inward while the other forearm rotates outward), then that video would look dramatically betterer/gooderer, rather than looking a little wild/unbalanced/windwipery...

    Like this... [​IMG]
     
    #79 KL., Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  30. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
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    Learn how to use your edge and ski how you wanna ski
     
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  31. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    Put down your keyboard. Walk away. Slowly.
     
  32. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    KL points well made. But this EXERCISE is meant as an antidote to the American "petrified upper body", which we slavishly copy. Watch this drill from a Pommy instructor:

    Do you agree with these comments from a top US teacher ?
    " :( thats guys demos are awful. probably because at no point in time are we ever trying to really focus on our hands pushing together. I have to laugh how he talks about how its a good way to make your upper body remain calm and then he proceeds to start every turn with an upper body rotation, and a rotary push off up the hill with no release going down the hill."
    Err.. "Hands pushing together" is the very basis of UB.
    KL will hate the smell of that :( comment. I can hardly believe it. Independence needs to go much further than leg action.

    Gimme more than one liners, peeps !
     
    #82 bawbawbel, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
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  33. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    This is KL way of saying "too much new data, it will bounce off, rather than being properly contemplated."
    Agreed that the search for a single Universal Turn is futile.
    But the idea that the goal of years of private instruction should be a foot fetish is crazy.
    It is just as if the Authorized Learned Society Of Driving Instructors were to claim
    "Our course of instruction is extensive and rigorous, but you will eventually be able to drive in a straightjacket. "
     
  34. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    If both poles are stuck in the snow, your UB is already blocked. How can you rotate, except with a foot based jump turn?
    The French are just doin what comes naturally with their Pedal Hop. (lift off top ski, land on same ski)
    Watch Vallencant's top arm, moves back for windup, then comes around so fast that it blurs. Here is the secret of Pedal Power.
    Which won't work if you ski just with the ni.
    "A bit old school" What!
    "Anselm's turn unfortunately resists easy analysis.
    It is maddeningly ambiguous, and fundamentally illogical, because it seemingly asks you to push and pull with your uphill leg at the same time. That said, Anselm himself obviously uses this turn, and makes it work. You can even find him demonstrating this technique in the film "Edge of Never". Weighting the ski poles may be a key component of this turn. I myself have simply been unable to replicate it in a way that lets me conclusively say I understand it." Suffer !

     
    #84 bawbawbel, Jun 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  35. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
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    Double pole plant while not essential adds plenty to digme turns if you can get the timing right
     
  36. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Is fun, is good. Well , "There are basically only two ways to turn , left and right" :woohoo:

    My UB rotation kids are often branded as digme's.
    Instructors say to them "If you don't want to learn to ski properly, what are you doing here?"
    I say to them " Don't bother demonstrating that your turn is better, learn what you are shown and add it to your kit "

    Hmm. One definition of a digme:
    "Dig Me: Dig-mes have their weight strongly toward the back of the skis, their bodies supported by their ski boots. Their legs seem to be glued together. To get started into a turn, dig-mes use a strong rotation or counter-rotation movement, with a counter-rotation of the lower body immediately following, with the result that the skis change direction but then head out to the side until finally out far enough they tip up of necessity, catch an edge and are deflected back and underneath the skier who rather elegantly then gets the same thing to happen on the other side. Poles and arms wave in unison, with the pole often not touching the snow. These gyrations require precise timing and are not easily adjusted once begun, so that a dig-me trademark is a bent ski pole or one without a basket. Dig-me skiers look cool to many (not to ski instructors), and project an image that many who come to ski school would like to emulate. Dig-mes often know they look cool and if they come to ski school may soon wonder why, for they are not eager to change. Typically they are young males, but there are women dig-mes, too, as well as older dig-mes of both genders. It is said if you want to find dig-mes, look on slopes under chair lifts where they can best show off their style: "Dig me, dude!" Many have learned their style on their own and from the start of their skiing. And many have developed it to a fine art. They therefore find it difficult to change to a style of skiing that uses mechanics so different from theirs , even though that may be far more versatile, effective, and efficient. Part or even most of the success of dig-mes, however, comes from carefully choosing the slopes they ski on , for they have little other way to manage their speed, a significant problem especially in bumps. "

    What is yours ?
     
    #86 bawbawbel, Jun 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  37. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    BBB, is this how you would describe BEL...


    Two part anticipation/transition process, initially inside (finish of old turn) then outside (new/next turn), although it is an outside/inside process!

    1. The new outside arm/hand is initially an outside rising movement (transition) then an inward/downward forearm rotation movement (driving/steering).
    2. The new inside arm/hand rotates away/outward (allowing and controlling rotation) then even an further away motion via an inside downward movement which permits further rotation.

    [​IMG]

    With no pole plant required, a simple way to teach/show/demonstrate this (no poles required) outside/inside (skis follow) method can be as follows...
    • turning right...
    • place the right outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position then
    • keeping the hands in close proximity to each other (always within about 10/15cms of each other and closer)
    • begin moving the new outside right hand and the inside left hand from the right side to the left side of the body where the outside/right forearm/wrist/hand rises then rotates inwardly downward and the new inside forearm/wrist/hand rotates outwardly/reverses (ie. right hand follows (tends to follow) left hand)
    • the inside/left outward rotational forearm/hand movement controls the outside/right rotational movement and forces a Rhythmical/Smooth Outside Rotational Flow.
    • turning left... then vice versa for the left turn... and so on!
    • You will notice that keeping the hands in close proximity to each other forces an outside/inside process and a Rhythmical/Smooth Outside/Inside Rotational Flow.
    • Recreational skiers could/can easily learn this no poles outside/inside method/flow where it is easy to perform short to long turns at very slow, slow, medium, fast speeds. I believe, that they could easily become advanced to expert skiers simply through this method and even find Black (and higher) runs of any type terrain quite easy! I believe, that this is a very low knee injury method!
    • All good and all fun :) and this is as simple as I can describe it :)
    This simple no poles outside/inside method/flow can be taken further through further opening the outside chest/shoulder/arm at the finish/beginning of each turn. The more the outside chest/shoulder/arm is opened the more the skis are driven down the fall line but the down side is the harder it is to maintain a Rhythmic/Smooth Rotational Flow because the hands become further and further apart at the finish/beginning of each turn! Ligety can and does use a open outside chest/shoulder/arm method but he is super excellent at maintaining and ensuring a Rhythmic/Smooth Rotational Flow where the hands again meet (or are in close proximity) at the finish of the turn. Ligetys ACL injury was unfortunate but he is always skiing and training on the edge (at the limit)!
     
    #87 KL., Jun 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  38. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
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    I like the bumps and ski in the gullies to control my speed, i do like to use the top of the bumps to launch backscratchers and daffy's sometimes doubles
     
  39. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Lot of air in a straight line when you decide to bypass many moguls. I understand the double pole now. Do you prefer the straight skis of the dedicated bump addict? UB is helpful around the valleys at slow speed, but sounds like you have left that well behind. :)
     
  40. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Instructions to racers:
    1. Recently: "Arms and hands are primarily for balance" . Now: "Maybe not".
    We have gone from throwing arms up to unweight to throwing them down to get early ski loading into the top of the turn since then.
    2. Recently: "Turns are best initiated by opposition of the upper and lower body" Now: "Maybe not".
    We find UB rotary transfer being used, which brainwashing labels as BAD in any situation.
    Note the vague description and rejection of the "DigME" style above.
    Note the confusion of the Hop commentator above, who finally admits "Maybe pole WEIGHTING is involved. "
    Blinkered? No, blind, it seems.
     
  41. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Why are we doing the Mambo exercise?
    Because it does not require core blocking, stopping of UB rotation happens because you have gone as far as you can go.
    You might be able to hold a plank position (horizontal facing up with support at head and feet only) for 10 seconds, but Shiffrin of the Titanium Tummy eventually gets bored because she can hold it forever off the side of the swimming pool.
    Because I find that the best ski learning is from the coarsest and most exaggerated version of a move, which can then be wound back after it is implanted.
    Be aware of the timing of the three phases of the preparation for the next turn:
    1. Preparation for windup:
    Shoulders rotate initially faster than the skis are turning.
    2. Rotation Store for the next turn in windup:
    Shoulders and arms and poles (freedom! freedom! ) then rotate in the direction of the next turn.
    3. Rotation transfer:
    All those rotating parts bang against their stops at the right moment to begin the next turn.

    I would like to see mambos all over the mountain quite soon.
    It will take a full day to get it right, do not be discouraged by your first attempts.
     
    #91 bawbawbel, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  42. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    You can even forget the vertical unweighting arm movement and learn the simplified version.
    You get a pass providing you pole on the INSIDE of the turn. No bouncing off your skis, plis !
     
  43. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
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  44. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Ahh, you mean Ligety mambo... sehr gute, sehr gute
     
  45. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Hmm.. Except from KL, I only see posts demonstrating how effective our present technique is.
    Nice, but there is a lot of work behind those demos.
    Hinterseer, for instance, has trained until he can vertical standing jump one and a half meters.
    Harb, who has integrated rotary anticipation (counteracting) to his turns, points out here how a beginner must forget the initial snowplow move ASAP in order to commence "Titling the little toe".
    Not so with my Rotary Snowplough, it does not involve leaning DELIBERATELY on the outside ski. :)
     
  46. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    BBB, DbSki's Step on the Inside Ski is betterer but simplified Ligety outside/inside controlled mambo/rotation is even betterer...
     
  47. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Your first attempt at Mambo will probably be a bit like this, you know that it is a futile attempt, but concentrate on getting it right.
    Shouldn't let KL see this, he will be laughing so hard that he won't be able to breathe.
    Show this to your 4 year old student, and explain what is wrong as follows:
    "This funny man who doesn't know when to turn his top. They taught him to do one turn at a time !! "
    There are many "funny men" around who think that anticipation should happen WITHIN the turn, rather than BEFORE it.
    This clip is the height of albatrossity .

     
  48. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I used to watch the dreamlike skiing of this bloke and wonder how he made it happen.
    Now I know :)
     
  49. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    If you tried the b/w skid Mambo that I posted, it probably became boring after the first run.
    But it at least made the timing obvious.
    Now invent your own personal Mambo!
    Start by ditching the poles.
    My favourite is the Inside Ski Mambo, first taught in USA in 1973.
    Will post vid later.
     
  50. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    So ends the second stage of New Way instruction
    Let the games begin!
    New Page ?