Sequential Turning & Ways of Lurning

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by bawbawbel, May 27, 2017.

?

Have you mastered the Level One White Out Turn?

  1. Tried and Satisfied. Ready for Level Two, please.

    66.7%
  2. Tried and Nearly Died. Not recommended.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Sort of interested.

    33.3%
  4. Please stop trifling with my technique !

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  1. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    "you can rotate one half of your chest while the other side remains unmoved"
    This is also important/useful as an early (very early) inside anticipated movement the ensures that the inside (new outside) chest/shoulder is in a forward ready position so that transition can begin/proceed and complete without UB hindrance and moreover transition cannot begin and proceed without UB support, initiation, and position.

    It is no different with LB movement/turning, the UB position must allow LB transition to begin/proceed and complete without UB hindrance. So even with LB movement UB support, initiation, and position is critical.

    It is interesting how important UB chest position/support is, especially to transition and even the turn itself, yet it is never mentioned... interesting.
     
  2. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Your KL turn will fail unless you get it right.
    It is typical of recent instruction to describe dynamic anticipation as the most subtle of processes, derived from a still upper body, no less. Capture it or it is gone.
    " The traverse is the death of dynamic-anticipation, and this is the reason that most skiers never make it to being a truly advanced skier. The problem arises at the end of the turn, the pressure has built up under your edges and at this point tremendous energy is stored in the coil of your upper body. Your shoulders are facing down the hill and your skis are across the hill (like a coil spring). If we simply relax and stand up that energy is lost, it is really only available for a fraction of a second and if we miss it is lost forever. "
    RUBBISH !! Racers are now tuning their bodies to produce sequential pulses as required anywhere in their turns. The Old School cannot see it, understand it, or emulate it because it is from the forbidden zone.
     
  3. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Nope, rubbish, not true... it just makes skiing dramatically easier and the timing is preturn, pretransition, end turn, or anticipating the next turn (whichever way you want to say it) ... ie. step1, and part of the sequential process which itself is variable/dynamic, but still sequential, depending on the snow, terrain, and conditions.

    sequential pulses/Old School/forbidden zone ... other new names to confuse which is interesting, typical, and ensures things remain unnecessarily complex and confusing. Glad I am away from all that jargon.

    Sounds funny ... I have just sequentially pulsed myself down that slope and "oh what a pulse feeling that was". I now feel highly relieved within myself. Just as well I got it right otherwise I would feel only partially relieved.

    Are you planning to change the Thread Title to...
    "Sequentially Pulse yourself down the Slope and feel relieved doing it" or
    "A new way to feel relieved - Sequentially Pulse yourself down the Slope".
     
    #153 KL., Jul 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  4. MickM

    MickM Dedicated Member
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    My head hurts :emoji_confused:
     
  5. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    That may be because my explanation was lost in the New Internet. Where I also attempted to tell KL that I did not consider his turn "Old School".
    We will avoid treading on bunions at all cost.
    However, we need to also keep the thread intact at all costs, as I detect an acceptance amongst posters that "Shoulders Before Skis" should be a legitimate and lawful situation at every stage of ski instruction.
     
  6. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    It is only a small step from "upper body into the right position for the new turn" to "upper body movement reflected into the new turn", and every officious official must eventually admit it.

     
    KL. likes this.
  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    He finally got the message after being Sent to Coventry. Here is his "acceptable" rethink :

    " What is old is new again comes to mind.
    The biggest thing that keeps being repeated is using the upper body to direct the lower body. In short the upper is the counter balance for the lower.
    I won't argue that it follows or leads, just that it provides a force point, how you achieve that is your choice."

    Nobody understands that, and it is sufficiently obtuse to get him back into the self congratulatory crew.
     
  8. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Yes, step1... timing is preturn, pretransition, end turn, or anticipating the next turn (whichever way you want to say it)
     
  9. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Real Anticipation (see the definition mandatory for this thread, which has an extremely high standard of precise communication), or Static Anticipation as explained by Lord Brignone above ?
    Static Anticipation would work just as well from a traverse as a linked turn.
    Lord Brignone cannot see the obvious incongruity in accepting the fleeting dynamic anticipation from a "still upper body", but ignoring it elsewhere.
     
  10. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    For LB skiers... to think that you can keep the UB still over bumps, drops, and varying snow conditions all of the time is nonsense and even delusional.

    From time to time, and for intermediate skiers (all of the time), step1 is required, ie bring the outside chest into a "forward ready" position so that the transition for the next turn can/will happen. I view this as anticipation for the next turn which always needs to happen regardless of your skiing technique, otherwise your skis are always fighting with your UB. Perhaps the only time this does not need to happen is if both skis are in the air.

    Always, UB leads LB, ie your Skis, unless and perhaps, both skis are in the air.
     
    #160 KL., Jul 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  11. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Especially in the pow, where sidecut is redundant. It will come, it will come....
     
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  12. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Not getting through to teenagers !
    A factory of flapping arms.
    I now show snowboard stuff to emphasize that the shoulders rotate only WITH the skis during the turn. Beginners must rotate forward BEFORE the turn and then LOCK THE CORE. Sequential, sequential, sequential. Sheesh !
     
    #162 bawbawbel, Jul 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  13. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Better to teach them, from the beginning and in a coordinated manner, good hand/forearm/arm rotation/movement. It is visual with good feeling. Just a suggestion...
     
  14. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    You are blind, when he stops trying to pole plant, if you cannot see the following. He skis much better when he stops trying to pole plant. The shoulders & UB follow the hand/forearm/arm rotation/movement...
    • turning right...
    • place the right outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position then
    • begin moving the new outside right hand and the inside left hand from the right side to the left side of the body where the outside/right forearm/wrist/hand rises then rotates inwardly downward and the new inside forearm/wrist/hand rotates outwardly/reverses (ie. right hand follows (tends to follow) left hand)... this is done simultaneously!
    • the inside/left outward rotational forearm/hand movement controls the outside/right rotational movement and forces a Rhythmical/Smooth Outside Rotational Flow.
    • turning left... then vice versa for the left turn... and so on!
    • The more the outside chest/shoulder/arm is opened the more the skis are driven down the fall line but the down side is the harder it is to maintain a Rhythmic/Smooth Rotational Flow because the hands become further and further apart at the finish/beginning of each turn!

    This is what I have previously mentioned...

     
    #164 KL., Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  15. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Chinese copy of yr style already exist, or does it? It does emphasize the SPEED of anticipation being a very important factor.
     
  16. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    No, with the chinese style the new inside arm is leading the new outside arm movement and I would suggest that is why the SPEED of anticipation is a very important because the new outside needs to catchup to the new inside initiation/transition. I would suggest that this is inside/outside, not outside/inside. Do you like this style? Is what you teach?

    If the new outside initiates the transition and the new inside needs to rotate/follow outward in unison/simultaneously. Effectively the new inside hand/forearm/arm is initially getting out of the way, in a nice complementary way, then controlling the outside rotation/movement by preventing over rotation/movement. This creates/allows for excellent flow at fast speeds and even at very slow speeds. This is outside/inside. Timing is controlled by the new outside hand/forearm/arm initiation/transition through a hand/arm rise/forward movement then an inward rotation movement but it is even better/easier if the outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position. You can see the outside inward rotation because the outside elbow remains high while hand rotates inward and lower than the elbow. Anyway, this is not the chinese style, above, that you have suggested...

     
    #166 KL., Jul 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
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  17. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Let's see: 1000 view it, 900 forget it instantly, 20 understand it, 2 will try it while the snow falls. Progress !!
     
  18. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Snow falling ... I have SDS ... enjoy yourself :)
     
  19. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Preparation is important
    [​IMG]
     
  20. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Today's selection by BB (Bill Barker).
    Learning telemark is one way (bit drastic !) to get rid of your A framing.
    It involves getting rid of the things that hold your boots down.
    Some call them "training heels"
     
    #170 bawbawbel, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  21. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
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    Except that it is Japanese.

    Kotomi Ishizu is a Japanese demonstrator.
     
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  22. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    He plays to the gallery and they obviously love him.
    I looked up the original documentor of the Skoarding style.
    He has a guiding show in NZ and is an instructor of instructors.
    Don't think that he taught Ligeti the pulsed sequential move, but he posted utube of Ligeti showering him with snow. Fame!
     
    #172 bawbawbel, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  23. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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  24. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    It must be accepted by the Old School that "pumping" is now used universally as a way to add extra energy (kinetic) from your muscles to the available vertical displacement (potential) energy being used up by snow friction.

    But it becomes too hard for them to explain how they can "release energy" from a loaded ski into the next turn while remaining centered on their skis. This "float" remains a mystery to them, while they accept it gladly.

    The most basic method relies on the fact that in a non-carved turn the tails of the skis are rotating faster than the tips. So a ski bounce will deflect you into a rotation in the opposite direction. It feels like an acceleration past gravity alone but there is none.
    The real deal is when a carve gets a sequential rotation combined with a body pump (extension involving the knees ).
    If you are coming out of the turn faster than going into it, that is what you are doing !
    Welcome to our rather exclusive club.
     
    #174 bawbawbel, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  25. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I expect to be met with stunned silence as we explain to skiers what every skateboarder knows and uses.
    Our Standard Skier (femur rotator ) sees a straight line body pump being used to get air in a pipe. He compares this to pumping up a swing (making the body dynamically heavier on the way down and lighter on the way up) and investigates no further.
    He sees a Ski Crosser beating the pack and considers that to be due to cleaner edging or better waxing or better prejump timing.
    Hold onto your hat! HE IS USING THE FORBIDDEN "SKIS FOLLOW SHOULDERS" TECHNIQUE.
    "It is just weighting and unweighting !"
    No, feet must be forever trying to catch up with the upper body gyration in Power Turning.
     
  26. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Why would recreational skiers need to generate extra speed coming out of turns?
    Only if they were thinking of graduating to racing, so I am thinking to ignore this effect for now.
    Better maybe to concentrate only on the relative ease of sequential turning.?
    So I will just mention it in passing, unless someone wants to pursue it.
    http://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Professional-Ski-Cross-Racer
    "Become a strong alpine skier. Alpine skiing is essential to ski cross well, as you must generate speed in the turns. Without a strong alpine base, it can take years to become the best."
     
  27. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Pay no attention to this post as I am still in a state of contemplation.
    No sequential movement is needed to generate speed in ski or boardercross if you are banking on a berm.
    In that case entering the berm crouched and extending progressively will produce the "spinning skater" effect (Conservation of Circular Momentum ) where rate of rotation increases as we move mass towards the center of rotation.
    I have used this effect often (good for half a board length ) but never analysed it.
    Now MY head hurts.
     
    #177 bawbawbel, Jul 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  28. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Skicross and boardercross times are within 10% of each other on a similar course, but the boardercrossers use more pumping. Note Vaultier including arms in the pump to win at Sochi.

    So what magic does Pierre have that Alex might be interested in?
    His pump leaves him with a slight tip down bias which he corrects with a sequential backward rotation of the arms as he departs from the snow. Fine adjustment. You like it, it's yours.
     
    #178 bawbawbel, Aug 1, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  29. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    The problem with ALL commercial ski training machines is that they involve a dead upper body, thus perpetuating the present half Rst technique which is taught right up to "expert" level. Above that are the enlightened few who have found their way to whole body skiing.
    This type of machine can be modified with spring loaded single bar gates at hip level to allow sequential movements.
    Free the arms !
    But why bother with a machine that does not include a sliding ability? Even an attempt to simulate the rotary snowplough on this one as shown would cause serious damage to the unfortunate user.



    But all is not lost ! Adapting the latest pump boards from Razor would allow sideways movement.

    Or just go skiing....
     
  30. chicski

    chicski Dedicated Member
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    You know this has confused the heck out of me for most parts. But one thing I have been trying is rotating the shoulder in at the start of the turn, and it has been working for me. Particularly on one side where I tend to drag my pole. So out of all the mumbo jumbo, I have taken something from this thread. Thanks!
     
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  31. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Nice. Just when I was about to abandon this forum . You collect "likes" at 60 times my rate, hard to imagine such popularity. :)
    If you are skiing Hotham next week, I will spot you from that one turn characteristic. No such thing as a skier clone, all individuals !
     
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  32. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver Dedicated Member

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    Oh sorry, I thought this thread said "Sequential Tuning Clinic".

    Now that would have been interesting.
     
  33. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    You got to take a brake from bits and bytes sometime!
    We are looking at ways of Tuning Sequential Turning for easiest learning.
    What could be better than video replay instruction?
    MIRRORS are the answer.
    How about Hotham 365 ( 2 moving slopes with mirrors ) , now open afternoons (except Wed and Sat) for 15 bucks ?
    Maybe Tuesday 3 pm.
     
    #183 bawbawbel, Aug 3, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
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  34. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    SkiCity in Cheltenham is long closed, sadly.
    Getting kids started was so easy.
    Here is a left hander handling right turns perfectly with a sequential arm movement.

    But the left turn ?
    She makes a weak sequential movement by moving her left arm back, but that is upsetting the necessary even weight on both skis.

    Just ski behind and give the right arm a push at the right moment.
    Fixed !
     
    #184 bawbawbel, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  35. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    More trouble with definitions. . Star pupil sez " I am reading a book on skiing properly and a "preturn" is exactly the opposite to what you show us !"
    Sure enough, an author who claims to "ski with snowboarders" describes a preturn as a slight uphill diversion before the turn to help get onto the right edges for a carve.
    ie With lower rather than upper body. Is this common, I was wonderring ?
     
  36. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Dbski, does a preturn/transition by 'Stepping on the new inside Ski'. What type of LB turn is this author doing. Perhaps, the position of the authors UB is not correctly positioned for a LB transition. Harb does it by tipping the new inside ski and there are other methods of preparation/anticipation and unweighting.
     
  37. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Harb's tipping is from an odd protrusion move of the new inside knee. His technique is constantly updated by more and more use of inside arm counteracting anticipation. This has eventuated by his expert analysis of thousands of racing videos. Also, I suspect, from his personal discovery that a preturn (from OUR definition) relieves half of the necessary active knee action needed for perfect Infinity Moves.

    DbSki's fine carve results from bravely tilting your body downhill until the new inside edge engages. Zero UB anticipation.

    Here is how that author suggests to come towards it.
    http://www.freerideskier.com/html/advanced_carving.html
    Too ski weary to follow it up tonite, the "preturn" is somewhere around here. Sounds suspiciously like the old Arlberg "make a platform" style, but without the upweight.
     
    #187 bawbawbel, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  38. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Too bored to read it today, more pressing complaints intrude:
    "A sequential windup stops me doing the Infinity Move."
    Wot rot ! The only thing is that you can no longer include is planting a pole on the outside of the turn, because of the need for UB Counteracting.
    I thought that everybody ended up with the Infinity Move after normal instruction ? You ARE using Tip Lead, I assume ?
    "We don't use Tip Lead with the New Skis "
    How then, do you Slice the Ice, which was always taught, once apon a time ?
    "We don't ski on ice with our Fat Skis, or even our "All Mountain" Skis "
    OK.
     
    #188 bawbawbel, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  39. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    KL, I see a skier using your hand rotation, Works well.
    Did you show him, or do you have the same guru, I wonder ?
     
  40. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Hmm, interesting, no I am my own teacher, but I am just a person not a guru, and yes it works extremely well and is easy to teach and learn and is a low energy, low injury, style. Unfortunately I haven't been skiing this season, as yet, as my wife has been quite ill and I have had to care for her. So I have serious SDS, not too worry, and I hope my wife gets well very soon, while there is still snow to ski.

    Where did you see this skier, do you know the skier, and have you tried it yourself. Perhaps they have been reading this thread and if they have I am glad that they have tried it and are having fun skiing rather than being a frustrated skier? I suppose I should ask, did it look like they were having fun?
     
    #190 KL., Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  41. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    I'm having trouble imagining non-sequential turning.
     
  42. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Very positive and effective movements. At least a few seasons to get it like that , I would say.
    Will keep a lookout for him.
     
  43. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Getting tough with recalcitrant :
    "Ice today. I can turn just by twitching a nostril. So I will not use the sequential stuff "
    When you do, check if you are still making efficient ice turns.
    Should be steep enough so you don't just bomb down, finish your turns.
    Your turn, of course, is from when you change edges until you change edges in the opposite direction.
    For minimum slideout, you should spend an equal time with skis pointing either side of the fall line during the turn.
    Not a chance ? Hacker ! Get back in line !
     
  44. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    http://www.mthotham.com.au/events-activities/winter-activities/hotham-365/
    Can't imagine why it was not booked out today, with everything on extended wind hold.
    Bring your own boots. Runs dead quiet.
    $15 for half an hour, including a qualified instructor ! They adjust the slope and speed for your precious above 5 y.o. beginner, and claim effective learning in very quick time.
    Not run by a separate company. All new. (2 Y.O.)
    Need a dinosaur out front, I suppose....
     
  45. crackson

    crackson Addicted Member
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  46. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Depends on your definition of a "good time" I suppose.
    I have to admit that there is joy in most shared experiences, as long as they do not involve fatalities.
    Even as a casual observer, I enjoyed calculating if bum sliding boarders under Blue Ribbon today would be stopped by the access track, or be flung into a further intrepid descent.
    Learning only from skiers and each other, their attempts to stay upright using knee swivel only were demonstrations of futility to me, but I am like that..
     
  47. dossa5

    dossa5 Dedicated Member
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    Is Nigel on your bandwagon
     
  48. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Don't want to upset any ski school applecarts.
    Pity that they want only over fives. Probably due to the obligatory crash padding on the bottom bar making it hard to hold on to, or something. Silly. Unnecessary.
    Would be great alternative for littlies who crash in the falling snow and howl until taken back to the tuck shop.
     
  49. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Choosing an instructor for private lessons.
    Now that you know about the flow, go with one who does wot we have talked about.
     
  50. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I see some small progress in the locally recognized best way to turn.
    The next Interski will apparently demonstrate "inside pole eating", a basic UB anticipation and incllnation move which we have discussed.
    And there are new buzzwords. "Functional Counter" must mean an attempt to make it do something useful in the top of the next turn.
    The Interski format itself provides a magnificent spectacle of experts sublimating their personal styles for a team display much more difficult than synchronized swimming .
    It is just that we must probably look elsewhere for technique breakthroughs.

    Back to thread topic, here Andrea illustrates sequential initiation for all to study-
     
    #200 bawbawbel, Aug 18, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017