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Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by LMB, Aug 1, 2016.
@Any this is the PDF for Cover-More Snow Sports +
yeah the document is just a url. you could copy the url and send it to anyone. but its hard to post urls here because the forum automatically converts it into a preview window.
try right click, copy link address here instead.
They also asked how I was transported to the hospital and if I went straight there!
I've tried finding this last time you mentioned it, but I couldn't. A low res clipping of a screenshot of an unknown document doesn't help finding more details much at all Covermore's documents and pds are also blue theme'ed, making this red theme quite different and even less likely to be related.
But, I just spent another 45 mins and finally found it;
This is a snippet of flight center's travel insurance, "powered by" covermore, underwritten by zurich australia (https://policy.poweredbycovermore.com/partners/fcnz/files/documents/PW_FC_YTI.pdf).
It is common to see differences in insurances resold by the same underwriter (NAB's insurance is provided by QBE, but is completely different cover to normal QBE). The difference here is we're 3 levels deep in resellers now, each with their own variations (and profit margins?).
I went to flight center's site, and attempted to buy some insurance with snow sports + cover, however the option doesn't seem to exist anywhere.
Seems like they dont provide it anymore, or its hidden away somewhere?
Sorry, it’s a screen shot from the Flight Centre, YourCover Travel Insurance booklet.
I bought mine easily at a bricks and mortar Flight Centre travel agency in June.
Dunno why it’s not available online!
possibly something they only offer in person
I am Sooo confused...
It happens easily I know...
But I just got a survey email from Suncorp travel insurance!!
suncorp resell AAMI insurance (AAMI; aka AAI, aka vero, i think theyre all one and the same).
sounds like they got their wires crossed, lol.
Used RACQ for the last 3 trips to Japan, but for 2020 going with AAMI, racq increased their price 25% for the same dates, people and destination, just 1 year later. They have also changed their pre-existing medical coverage. (Hubby had 2 seizures about 10yrs ago), most cover epilepsy, racq now wanted another $39 to cover this pre- existing condition, increasing the price by 35%.
Hey @Any, just wondering why your spreadsheet has travel insurance direct requirinng a guide for skiing outside of gates? From reading the pds I would think that skiing outside of gates would be covered since they are both controlled and still in bounds. I'm thinking gates like the chutes at treble cone, strawberry fields at niseko etc. Or is that field for gates that lead out of the resort boundary? Or am i misunderstanding something?
Yeah you got it, out the gates is outside the resort boundaries. Also falls into the off piste category.
Strawberry fields is out of bounds offpiste slackcountry.
(slackcountry is unofficial slang, but useful here because most insurance pds define 'backcountry' as offpiste terrain in a different category that wasn't accessed via a lift)
A common misconception is that if ski patrol open and close the gates it means that its safe, its been checked, and they'll look after you.
But its wrong, you're not protected at all. Its completely uncontrolled, no avalanche management, no patrols and no sweep at the end of the day. Ski patrol have no responsibility in any way. You may see evidence of blasting in the backcountry, but usually this is to prevent an avalanche from coming down through into the resort area, not to protect people out the gates.
In reality ski patrol are really nice people who love everything about skiing, and they want to help. So they still do some safety and patrols, especially in the beginner type gates (eg strawberry), but they're not required to.
By providing a service, ski resorts have a duty of care to provide a reasonable level of safety. They're responsible for providing safe equipment and also your safety on the mountain. They have to get you up safely, and they gotta safely get you down again.
Without that requirement they could have rusty lifts collapsing, chairs falling off in the wind, old equipment under the snow with spikes sticking through or rocks and trees with sharp points. A side effect, is that if they just let you go off and kill yourself in the slackcountry its their fault.
They use gates so that its clear that you know you've left the boundary and not by accident, and so that they can work as a legal disclaimer where by going through you waive that right to reasonable safety. So technically if you duck a rope you didn't waive your rights, which is why ski patrol must chase you, tho im pretty sure there's a clause in the lift ticket that says they're no longer responsible anyway.
They open and close the gates because no matter how many forms or boxes you make people tick, you cant disclaimer away stupid obvious shit that will obviously get people killed, so sometimes they are still responsible.
Niseko (and other places in Japan) adopted the American way of doing gates. Many years ago there was a really good documentary about the US gate system. It was about Jackson Hole from memory. It might be worth finding.
Europe doesnt have any gates at all, its all on you to look after yourself, so they get very confused when they come out.
wow that post was longer than expected.
the important thing i want to get across, is that out the gates is not safe at all!
edit: I don't want to sound all meanie you cant go or scare people away. I just want people who do go out the gates to know the impact of the decision they've made. I ski out the gates every single day ;P
Thanks for the clarification. It's definately something people should be aware of before deciding to go through an open gate. It feels a little misleading when terrain is featured on a trail map and clearly shown as within the resort boundary eg the Motatapu basin at treble cone. I've seen some gates at resorts signposted with warnings but maybe they all should be? A simple thing to do to help remove any doubt.
yeah some of signs in niseko can be as small as an A4 piece of paper.
you're right, the treblecone trailmap does seem to indicate that it is inbounds.
however i bet that orange sign at the gate says it all.
From the TC website
12. MOTATAPU BASIN
BIG MOUNTAIN TERRAIN WITHIN A PATROLLED, INBOUNDS ENVIRONMENT. THE MOTATAPU CHUTES ARE EXPERT ONLY TERRAIN COMPRISING CLASSIC STEEP, ROCK-SIDED COULOIRS. IT IS POSSIBLE TO TRAVERSE OUT OF THE MOTATAPU CHUTES, BUT THE SUSTAINED FALL LINE IS SO TEMPTING THAT A 5 - 20 MINUTE HIKE IS MORE LIKELY AND MUCH MORE REWARDING.
Thanks! I thought I'd read that it was patrolled and considered in bounds but I didn't have any proof. Wouldn't this mean tid would this kind of terrain?
I think I mislead you all in my original question by including strawberry fields. My question was more directed to gated in bounds terrain like TC
seems like it.
puzzling to go out of your way to suit a single insurer when others just cover everything out of the box.
Does the complementary travel insurance via NAB card still cover skiing? I thought it had changed last year or so?
it did change. but it seems to have changed back.
id probably double check to be sure tho.
Just checked the PDF.
Underwriter for NAB is now Allianz.
There are no specific skiing restrictions, there s however a very vague disclaimer mentioning cover may be voided if you recklessly put yourself at risk?
usually these require you to check local avalanche reports n stuff, but who knows what the cutoff is. moderate? considerable?
So i was about to use AIG for an upcoming US trip and after a 30 minute phone call, they told me that AIG does not cover any skiing on "unprepared slopes" unless with a guide. Their PDS mentions coverage for snow skiing and no restrictions relating to the slopes (or anything related to snow for that matter). I mentioned this and the AIG contact on the phone acknowledged that yes this restriction is not mentioned in the PDS but is mentioned in an underwritting document.
Now I'm confused and don't know who to believe when AIG tell me they won't cover something that their PDS doesn't exclude.
sounds like bs to me.
for starters, AIG are their own underwriters.
pds is the primary legal document required by the australian corporations act to outline all exclusions, conditions and limitations .
there can be addendum to the pds that can be provided separately. but theres a whole transparency thing there too.
i reckon you caught them in a lie and they're just trying to get rid of you asap.
the terms they 'quoted' sound pretty good for a quick thing to make up over the phone tho :/ sounds like it must be written somewhere.
a lot of insurance underwriters outsource their support department. 24/7 support in multiple languages, and the facilities required to enact measures in the case of emergencies is a big ask for a company. in the case of AIG its a us company called Travel Guard? perhaps you were talking to a department that deals with a bunch of other insurances, so they already had something handy that they could pull out of their ass.
i dont really know what im talking about. but in any case, invisible sneaky secret disclaimers, and taking at least 30 minute phone call to get any answer out of them, sounds enough for me to steer well clear of AIG
I read the AIG PDS last week and could see no exclusion for off piste skiing so decided to take out insurance with them. A friend who is travelling with me rang them and was advised that they don't cover you for off piste. So I rang yesterday and asked the same question and was assured that they do cover you off piste. I took note of the operator's name and then paid up for the cover.
Now I read asammut_au s reply.!!!! What are you supposed to do when these people have no idea what their cover is???
Before I ring these people (AIG) again to get a definitive statement of what their cover is (I thought the PDS was this) and cancel out if they don't cover off piste, can anyone out there advise me of a company that definitely does cover you off piste?
I'm 67 years old and we're skiing two weeks in Japan next February.
TID's pds specifically mention that they cover off piste in resort.
I believe Aami also say they cover off piste.
I'm currently trying to weigh up if I should go with Aami myself since they're cheaper but Aami both 1. have terrible reviews online and 2. don't specify that they cover off piste in the pds. They don't exclude it, but neither did AIG. At least we know a forum member has successfully claimed a heli skiing injury with Aami
Ive gone with AAMI my last couple of trips because of their wide reaching coverage.
Ive tested them with a luggage damage claim, and medical claim, and an off piste in bounds related medical claim that they didnt even ask how it happened (the trees move i swear!), and have been pretty good experience.
I was a bit lethargic with following up the details of my luggage claim, I needed to get an affidavit signed by a JP, and was too lazy to get it done, literally my mum is a JP lol. They could have just let it sit and go away silently and not have had to pay up, but they started emailing and calling chasing me up, kick my ass into gear. I thought this was a very positive experience.
Go back a page or two, Ozgirl has actually tested that AAMI pay up with a heliski claim only a few weeks ago.
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately AAMI don't cover anyone over 65. I'm 67. I'll have a look at the TID PDS and if it looks OK I'll ask them the magic question.
We're not going to be jumping off cliffs or out of helicopters for that matter but obviously no one wants to ski Japan and just stay on groomers.
Thanks again Any and asammut_au for the suggestions.
Bupa Global? Theyre my #2, but relatively untested and I've not read much feedback. I think they go up to 75yr old.
Haven't gone through TIDs PDS yet but their website states that as long as you pay for the Snow Sports option then they will cover you for:
Snow skiing and Snowboarding on-piste and off-piste within resort and terrain park boundaries on groomed or ungroomed runs and marked trails which are patrolled or monitored by resort authorities;
That's a eureka moment for me. Tomorrow I'll ring AIG and unless they give me off piste in writing I'll cancel out and go with TID.
Rang AIG this morning and they have confirmed that off piste is only covered if you're accompanied by a professional snow sport instructor or guide. So I have cancelled the policy and they have agreed to refund all payments including the medical assessment fee.
So I will now take out cover with TID.
Glad to hear you got a good outcome.
I still don't understand how AIG are allowed to restrict something without putting that in the PDS
After reading the online reviews of AAMI a bit more closely, they seem to be mostly either people angry about things that the PDS states it does not cover (not AAMI's fault) or people who had a hard time but eventually got their money paid out.
I did what a lot of people in this thread have done and emailed AAMI with my raft of questions and they answered every one, and pretty quickly too. Definite props to AAMI there! I can't find much fault when compared to some other insurers out there but I can find definite benefits of the AAMI policy so looks like they've got another converted customer from me
And besides, with some many others doing the same in this thread, I'd be silly not to switch right?
they probably curse us for emailing and contacting them with so many questions
"hey boss, someone from that annoying ski forum has called us again asking the same questions!"
It’s past time to consider us in their PDS
Thought I would mention I was trying to organise insurance for January trip to Japan, just spoke to AAMI who stated they don't cover off piste but if we were on a guided cat skiing trip that was off piste I would be covered, came down to "due care" (basically if we went off piste on our own no cover). Problem now is they don't cover pre existing (osteoarthritis) and under the multi person policy can only cover 2 adults and one teenager, as the other teen is now over 18 and he would have to has his own policy! SO back to the drawing board. Have to admit the sales guy was very helpful, told me AAMI's sister company, Vero, would cover pre existing, kids up to 21, but not off piste or cat and Apia (because I'm ancient) would cover off piste, cat skiing, cover children up to 21 but they don't do Japan! The search continues!
Are you sure about that @Mitchthewitch? I and others in this thread have specifically asked Aami if they cover offpiste without a guide and they told us that they do. I have it in writing. I have specifically asked if there are any restrictions and they never mentioned due care, nor does the PDS
Yes, that was his words and he had me on hold for a while, as he was checking a number of things for me. I was a bit confused as I was re reading this thread while I was on hold, but didn't want to tell him he may be wrong. He said to me with a guide we'll cover you but if you go off by yourself you're not covered. Think I might call again tomorrow after re reading their PDS as sometimes I'm pretty sure it all depends on who you speak too! Bit annoying though.
Is it possible that Aami consider out of bounds on your own as not reasonable care?
reasonable care is in the same section as suicide / etc.
but i suppose its quite subjective in how you might interpret it.
Wow, I just contacted Aami about an example to see if that was considered reasonable care and they now say they "no longer" cover anything off groomed slopes.
Really? I haven’t had a chance to call them again, but the gentleman I spoke to yesterday did keep checking for me, his words were ‘ due care’
not sure what you're expecting by calling them,
you're talking to help desk operators, trained to help people who cant spell their own name when inputting their credit card details.
they're not qualified to give you legally binding advise.
(neither is an online forum for that matter, lol)
even if they say a resounding yes, you need to take it with a huge pinch of salt, and you should react with the same incredulity and concern as if they said no like your experiences today have been.
Yes. One would think that a PDS is the contract between you and company. Unfortunately just like off piste is a vague term that could have different interpretations they also throw in vague exclusions about doing things that increase your risk. Of course getting on a plane or even driving to the airport increases your risk.
I am just abt to take out travel & ski insurance for Japan.
I think I have found 1 or two companies that cover ‘off piste’ , ie. (off groomed trails) but they must still be ‘maintained’ and ‘marked as ski areas/runs’, ‘within resort boundary’ & as I understand, patrolled.
Just wondering if this wording is similar to other policies and also if anyone thinks this is sufficient for someone seeking:
- some in-bound, off piste pow & tree skiing? Nothing to risky (ha ha!)
I agree with others on this thread.
All the dot point ‘features’, on-phone sales’ comments and PDSs are confusing, & often inconsistent from one contact to the next.
I guess I’ll have to bite the bullet one day? Soon?
Go with the gut instinct & head?
in bounds off piste sounds like your cup of tea if you're only starting to get interested in it.
i cant speak for all resorts worldwide, but everywhere ive been has at least some that fit that description.
insurance are legal bs type stuff, never go with your gut for legal stuff.
Being lazy, have aami updated their Pds yet?
"This Product Disclosure Statement was completed on 13 February 2018"
ive actually gotten the contact details of insurance ombudsman thinking that i might lodge a complaint. but havent bothered yet.
is purposefully advising people incorrect information over the phone technically fraud? i think it might be.
I’ll be solo, & its my first trip to Japan, so caution is the way to go.
NTN is not that likely to release - another factor.
Btw: I have 35 seasons and not worried abt doing short day trips in BC Vic. Japow is a whole new ball game.
Wouldn't go just on gut instinct - but if two policies offer similar benefits - will have to pick.
Fwiw: Allianz seems promising-ish, so does skiinsurance.com. Watch this space.
Neither offer much in terms of reimbursing for loss of skis and luggage. But I guess thats small fry c/f rescue, recovery & medical.
Wouldn't be interesting if I got another aami product and hurt myself after they just paid me out.
I would still buy aami, you would win the fight I'm sure. Until the PDS excludes it and you dont have a paper trail you asked what can they say?
I have fought an insurance company via ombudsmen and won before.