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Skier suing skier - do we need this?

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by Annabuzzy, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Back to the old days with bugger all grooming and mogelfests. That should slow em down and such.
     
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  2. gareth_oau

    gareth_oau Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    We always take out insurance whether overseas or domestic.

    At least I have third party liability cover in place, which many people wouldn't have at a domestic resort
     
  3. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Certainly. The strange thing is- in the various European resorts i have sampled the ones with the most prolific amount of highways like S Trail did not equate to lots of skiers pushing too fast ( Val Gardena is example). When certain areas get more volume people slow down more readily than in Oz. Lack of choice here may have something to do with it but i do feel a difference in general politeness and consideration.
     
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  4. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    I have had a different experience. The trails down from Solaise and Bellevarde in Val d'Isere terrify me. France is the only place I have been taken out by another rider. Twice.
     
  5. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I can see why this litigation might happen in the US. It has, to a large extent, to do with medical insurance.
    You would expect most skiers/snowboarders to have medical insurance. Mostly, this is part of a employer salary package, although a lot of people self insure.

    But the employer salary package medical insurance schemes variey quite a lot. They have tiers, so you may get the top one, that includes more..... Or you may get a lower tier, which includes the basics such as emergency, hospitalisation, scheduled check ups, optical & other services, etc, but if you visit your doctor for a non scheduled visit, it might cost you $90 for that visit (for example, you have a the flu). Some medical insurance is also tailored to contractors, where a minimum number of weekly hours of work is required... For example in some schemes, if you are injured and you can't work 20 hours a week, you may lose your medical insurance. (I know someone who was injured, and had temporary partial paralysis, but had to do min 20hr/week WHILE IN HOSPITAL)

    If we assume that the lady with the broken arm had medical insurance, she would have been covered for emergency & hospitalisation. However, it's probable a lot of after-treatment is not 100% covered (depending on the tier she's on), because it's no longer emergency treatment, but unscheduled treatment. That means that for x-rays, resetting the arm, removal of pins, rehabilitation, future surgery, bone replacement, etc, she will be heavily out of pocket.

    This is the reality in the US. This is the reason why it's reasonable to think that litigation is one of the only ways to provide continuing medical treatment there in the US.
    This situation is completely different in Australia.
     
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  6. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    This is true.
    If I'm going fast, but there's a kid up ahead, I immediately slow down, and take a wide birth. It shouldn't always be about "me".
     
  7. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Similar in Sankt Anton. Lots of skiers with strong ability. A bit of monkey see- monkey do perhaps ?
     
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  8. chrisj

    chrisj One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  9. LDJ

    LDJ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    That red piste down last last afternoon is a war zone however Le Face run first thing in the morning is a joy to behold
     
  10. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Last run of a ski holiday I downloaded Bellevarde instead of skiing La Face
     
  11. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    True enough. But cars have brakes.

    If the downhill skier made a last second unpredictable turn it may be Mr or Mrs uphill had nowhere else to go, with a millisecond to adjust.

    Yes Mr or Mrs Uphill should have allowed more space but it strikes me, if this is what happened, it’s a case of misjudgement rather than morally wrong behaviour, or fundamentally reckless
     
  12. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's not all so black and white as some would have it.
    Many moons ago, I was cruising (ie: not particularly fast) down the Home Trail at FC on my way back for lunch. First day of a 14 day stay. A beginner was parked across the trail, where the trail was clearly marked as an intermediate run. Concentrate enough to go around her. Then she decides to go straight across the trail which is only one car's width. Right in front of me. Quick corrective action on my part to avoid her, but a stick under the snow caught my edge and threw me right off the edge of the trail so that I hit a tree 5m up from its base. 2 broken ribs. End of holiday. OK. Shit happens. But what if it that stick had thrown me into her? Would I be to blame? 100% to blame?
    (That same stick caused an instructor to break a thumb, and Steven Lee to fall in that same spot that same day, so I don't think my level of competence was a contributing factor. And I was a very strong intermediate skier, skiing black runs with ease).
     
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  13. chrisj

    chrisj One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    In skiing, as in driving, you should be prepared at all times for the person in front to do something unpredictable.
    I reckon a good rule of thumb is:
    - Dont ski fast on green runs.
    - Don't ski on blue or black runs until you can do competent narrow turns.
     
  14. TOFF

    TOFF Im kind of a big deal Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yep, you would have been 100% to blame in my book.
    You are responsible for those downhill from you which this other person was from your description.
     
  15. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    rule 2 is look uphill and give way to people when you are starting off. she would share some of the blame if I've understood your description properly
     
  16. Crystal

    Crystal Sand skier extraordinaire Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    This
     
  17. DidSurfNowSki

    DidSurfNowSki One of them Ski Pass: Gold

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  18. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    All I’m saying, and I think teckel is saying, is sh%# happens sometimes, even with the best planning and best of intentions. It’s not always completely black and white.

    Skiing is a complex balance sport. People make spatial misjudgements. They lose balance. People fall over all the time, even if not pushing it. How many times have you seen someone glide to a graceful stop, only to slowly topple to the snow, like a tall building toppling sideways?

    Stuff happens.
     
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  19. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    That poor kid. Supertrail has such a combination of abilities with lots of crossover trails, very scary.
     
  20. Dave6

    Dave6 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    You hit a tree 5 m up? Lucky it was only 2 broken ribs.
     
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  21. TOFF

    TOFF Im kind of a big deal Ski Pass: Gold

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    Agree that shit happens.
    Therefore you must take extra care of those in front of you on the slopes.
    It isn’t a difficult concept
     
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  22. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    It also isn’t a difficult concept to accept that even with people taking that extra care, sh%# happens from time to time.
     
  23. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    The people coming down behind me who witnessed it all and came to my aid, told me in no uncertain terms that I was in no way to blame - nothing I could do would have prevented it.
    Rules (eg: always give way to those downhill) are there to help prevent accidents, but do not necessarily apply in every single instance. Common sense (from all parties), a duty of care to all, and not behaving in a reckless or careless manner are more important than black and white rules. It's those principles from which the rules are derived in the first place.
     
  24. chrisj

    chrisj One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm reminded of hoon drivers who fang around everywhere on the edge, then when there's a bit of oil on the road, reckon it's not their fault when they lose control.
    Edit: Not particularly referring to you @teckel. You just happened to post just before I did.
     
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  25. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I saw the tree coming mid-air, so flung my body sideways to save my head and legs. Hit the tree sideways and dropped to the bottom into deep soft snow. Was badly winded - couldn't breathe for a couple of minutes.
     
  26. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Agreed, there are often natural obstacles when skiing (and driving). I didn't blame the stick. I blamed (in part) the beginner who was totally oblivious to what she'd caused. a) She shouldn't have been on that trail b) She took off without looking uphill c) was skiing in a manner totally contrary to the way that area should have been used d) showed no common sense at all
     
  27. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    You seem to have in mind that accidents only happen because of irresponsibility.

    My only collision as the uphill skier was in the straight ski era. I hit a bump in a way I hadn’t quite expected, and was pitched onto the front of my skis, sort of perched way over my toes. I was moving at no more than walking pace. Whatever I did, I just couldn’t get myself back in a normal stance. I couldn’t turn and couldn’t get myself in a position to stop. I eventually collided with a lady in a slow motion bear hug, and we fell to the ground.

    I know I wasn’t skiing irresponsibly. I wasn’t skiing too fast. I was keeping a lookout for the skier below. I just had an accident.

    Sh%^ happens
     
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  28. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Bullshit excuses are bullshit
     
  29. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    If one does not allow for shit to happen shit will happen. The bottom line is to ski in a manner so to never allow the shit to shit to interact.

    It's not hard, well it is actually because to avoid shit happening requires skill, anticipation, awareness and empathy.

    Why roads have lanes .....
     
  30. TOFF

    TOFF Im kind of a big deal Ski Pass: Gold

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    Then do you have doubts if you were to blame as you asked for people’s opinions on here?
    You say nothing you could do to prevent it, what if you slowed to walking pace, would that have prevented it?

    I guess I am just a bit surprised as normally I agree with the self responsibility stance that I often see you take on these forums yet here I’m not sure who you are blaming, the cat track for not being wide enough, the other skier or the stick?
     
  31. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Imposing what you believe should have been the actions of others on the end result of your actions .....

    Runs are marked advisory not mandatory.

    I hope someone removed the stick
     
  32. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    So much gung ho so little skill or care.
     
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  33. crackson

    crackson A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Don't enter a run without looking up then complain because the person you cut off got close.

    Don't traverse a run without looking up then complain about anything. Stfu.

    Don't stop where you can't be seen below known drops and jumps then complain about anything. Stfu.

    Sue me.
     
  34. Townsend

    Townsend One of Us

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    I am sorry but there is no excuse for an uphill skier/boarder hitting anyone below them. Yes people in front may do stupid things but the person behind should be able to react. I agree with Currawong as I think many accidents happen when people are on slopes they cannot ski/board safely.

    I was hit on Meadows (yes Meadows! ) this year. Chap didn’t stop. I followed him he said that it was my fault because he was yelling at me that he was out of control and I didn’t get out of his way! How do you stop people like that?
     
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  35. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    This is one of the things that put my wife off when learning at Blue Cow. Too many heroes trying to straightline it down to the Summit chair from the terminal, not taking into account that most of the people on the Early Starter Double slope can barely sideslip/snowplough.

    I echo the statements of others - the significance of the injury and the impact on the victim shouldn't be underestimated. News reports often understate the impact of these situations - the best known one being the "McDonald's Coffee" lawsuit. In that case, the victim originally only sought to recoup her medical expenses after suffering burns to her thighs requiring skin grafts. McDonald's was serving coffee at a temperature 20 degrees Fahrenheit higher than other restaurants, and had been warned about the dangers of this but dismissed these warnings. The jury awarded compensatory damages of $160,000 and punitive damages of $2,700,000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants In the US, medical costs can be obscene if you are uninsured, so the amount of $750,000 is not unreasonable.
     
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  36. hpsauce

    hpsauce A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've seriously considered downloading to avoid High Noon ..thredbo...in the arvo.
     
  37. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    i've downloaded to avoid wombats ramble at times. normally get hit there a few times a season. most are insignificant, some are nasty.
    the scariest thing on the slopes is the racing snowplougher
     
  38. gareth_oau

    gareth_oau Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    If this sort of thing ends up in courts, will the courts need more objective data "speed", and "slow" are subjective
     
  39. crackson

    crackson A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Self appointed snow cops having near misses all day with randoms and never once realising the common denominator is them.
     
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  40. crackson

    crackson A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Stats from cooma hospital bagging thredbo.

    Sounds legit.
     
  41. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Just common sense really, just not everyone has it.
     
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  42. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    so who was wrong?
    there can be a degree of subjectivity in assessing the risk, and the fault if an incident occurs
    not long after the V8 opened at Perisher, I was caught in a big melee involving a large number of children in the unload at the top and found myself colliding with a sign that was stuck in the snow
    I went over it and landed on my shoulder
    a concerned father came over and abused me about causing an unspecified problem to his child
    I had avoided hitting anyone so I never knew what that problem was
    as it happened I ended up with an AC joint injury that took months to recover
    I note that the sign wasn't there anymore after that
     
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  43. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I have had a few minor collisions here and there. None I think my fault, but all accidents to which I contributed. Only came close to being taken out seriously once, by a brain frozen beginner straightening (terrified) down the steep on HN. Heard my mate yell out behind, then whoosh, he missed me by maybe a metre, kept going until he hit the flat, and imploded, leaving a debris trail of skis, poles, goggles, underpants etc.

    I have never come close to taking anyone out. I guess skiing backcountry, if you don't pay attention, you die, so....
     
  44. kiter

    kiter One of Us

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    That footage of the kid being wasted by a speeding oxygen theif is sickening . I have witnessed 2 similar wipe outs this year and spoken to a number of people injured by other uphill riders . My daughter had her arm broken by an aphill rider jumping off a ramp that formed on the side of a run who landed on her . I ride on the side of busy runs and have nearly been wiped out by uphil riders cutting it fine . Another one of the reasons that I am done with Thredbo and Perisher . I’m sure there are others who have had a gutful of crazy riders amongst other things at these places
     
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  45. chrisj

    chrisj One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    So true, but you also have to ask what the parents were doing in the middle of Supertrail with a child who is snowplowing.
     
  46. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ok so my two cents worth,

    A few on this thread have said yeah if I see a kid ahead I slow down.... why not if I see a beginner? I try and read the skier ahead if passing and as @Annabuzzy says sometimes shit happens. I was skiing village trail with the kids, slowed to read some skiers In front, thought I was going to be safe to pass (at a safe speed) then all of a sudden all two of the three skiers hockey stopped in front of me covering the whole trail. I stopped just in time as I wasn’t trying to be a hero.

    However in this instance (OP), I’d say the opposite, to hit someone and break their leg and have them require pins etc in the shoulder suggests the hit was at speed and devastating in impact and easily avoided with patience.

    We all like to ski hard and fast but soMetimes it’s worth dailing back.
     
  47. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Because it’s a green run? I wonder why parents take their snowploughing kids to first tracks, but they do.
     
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  48. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Legitimately using the ski fields, in control.

    Talk about victim blaming. SMH.
     
  49. chrisj

    chrisj One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's Supertrail, not Village Trail. It's a blue run.
    It's not about victim blaming. It's about common sense. There is no need for a child at that level of skill to be on a run that is known for its hoons. The kid is skiing at Friday Flat level.
     
  50. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    There are blue bits and green bits and they crossover all over the place. In any case it’s not steep and kid looked completely in control.