Slope Unweighting - Understanding "Effortless Skiing"

[bawbawbel]

BBB I really try to hard to understand what you are saying but to be honest I really can’t follow what you are saying.

Sorry, I was referring to Exercise One in your download. It should be practiced on an uncrowded run to avoid collisions.
I was relying on Effortless Skiing to help expand your deficient Austrian style.
If you don't get tired, then forget it for now, more lessons definitely won't go astray.
You are obviously advanced compared to my average student, who goes reverse shoulder in the first half of the turn.
I was waiting for you to comment on the slightly dated technique in Natalia's illustrations. But he is a solid skier.

 

[bawbawbel]

I booked myself a lesson and was asked to ski down a medium pitch so the instructor, crusty old Austrian guy, could assess me, when I reached him he said “vat the hell are you doing with your shoulders!!” I went back to steering with my legs after that.

Even instructors can have a bad day.
He now must put 10 dollars in the Swear Jar.
Did he at any time whip, poke, or prod you with a ski pole ?
Did he spit on the snow ?
He should have at least regurgitated the shoulder hymn-
" Keep your shoulders perfectly still, facing down the fall line"

Skiing with your feet is dangerous if a fog descends.
You lose your orientation and could fall over. Your 500 dollar sunglasses could cut your brow and you would lie there, bleeding out.
Whole body skiing lets you use proprioception (The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself) instead of visual cues to determine which way is down.
Natalia points out that this is ten times as fast and is very reliable.
I discovered and wrote about this several years ago. It works during the "wait" period when your body recoils. So worthwhile !

Also note that "still" shoulders (actually rotating an equal amount in the first and second half of the turn) means that no Two Step can occur.

Checkmate. Back to the Book.

 

[bawbawbel]

Well, I can't understand why the move that I teach to anklebiters and is the natural turn of many completely untaught skiers (free skiers, that lot) is so easy for them, but not for "trained" athletes :

"Separation of body parts is only possible after the athlete has a strong possession of
the preliminary basic movements involved in the task. The skier needs to first gain the
basics of edge release. When this and drills that promote leg independence are
mastered the ski racer will discover independence with regards to edge release
strategies. This “independence of ski edging” is an advanced skill, and is a movement
that cannot be taught, but merely the consequence of an athlete possessing exceptional
edging skills as a result of extensive edging practice."

So much for the 50 page advice to "racers"

 

[bawbawbel]

I want to annotate Teleroo's HarbTurn to show the forearm, face, shoulder downward motion before transition as it is central to Nathalia's Slope Unweighting.
That, together with her Inverted U foot motion, which is similar to Bob Barnes' Infinity Move.
And my turn initiation using abdominal muscle blocking.

But I watch Olympics Gold instead .
I observe how the best Laser sailors now roll their shoulders to transfer momentum over the wave.
I observe the new British Gold Medal running style, arms moving across the body instead of fore and aft.
And I am content (or just daft ?)

 

[bawbawbel]

Is this forearm inward rotation a genuine thing. If so what does it achieve?

Better go backcountry where you will be more likely to appreciate a solid start to the next turn.

 

[bawbawbel]

Natalia points out that initially you will need constant concentration to avoid going back to skiing the old way, because lessons probably brainwashed you a bit.
And you probably have a vestigal stem if you relax even a bit..
A low intermediate should now have no problem with a White Pass turn.
If you feel a twist in your knee you have not really mastered Effortless Skiing.

 

[KL.]

where is this place in nz?

 

[craighelo]

where is this place in nz?

I think Josh filmed some videos for NZSIA in Europe this year. Pretty sure he didn't imagine they would be used for arm driven skiing though.

 

[KL.]

Pretty sure he didn't imagine they would be used for arm driven skiing though.

what do you think that BBB is suggesting?

 

[KL.]

I think Josh filmed some videos for NZSIA in Europe this year.

did not think there were any places in nz with trees.

 

[KL.]

I think Josh filmed some videos for NZSIA

who is Josh?

 

[craighelo]

who is Josh?

Josh Duncan-Smith, NZSIA examiner and Instructor trainer. Working at Coronet this year as needed visa to get back into NZ

 

[KL.]

yeh, it is quite difficult to get into nz, even from aus! interesting, my mate (a l4 instructor for skiing and sb) was offered a Instructor position out of queenstown. i'll ask him if he knows him!

 

[bawbawbel]

Back to the Elephant.
The only way that a footfirster can do that turn is to twist the outside ski in the air to start it.
Even then it takes forever.

A short essay why the most powerful muscle group in the body fell into skiing disuse in half the world. (I will not mention the real reason as it will get me into even more trouble.)
You can achieve "body separation" by looking straight down hill, but if legs exclusively drive the turn, there is almost no power from the six pack.
It can degenerate into a flacid fold hidden deep in the beer gut and still manage that.

 

[KL.]

BBB, my mate likes his forward shoulder shrug (as I call it) for skiing and sb, especially sb.

forgot to say, that is a really good ski drill, easy to do, makes skiing easy, and makes dbski happy (step on/pressure the inside ski!).

 

[chriscross]

The "real reason" would be very interesting to hear. Where is this short essay?

 

[bawbawbel]

BBB, my mate likes his forward shoulder shrug (as I call it) for skiing and sb, especially sb.

forgot to say, that is a really good ski drill, easy to do, makes skiing easy, and makes dbski happy (step on/pressure the inside ski!).

Yes, got to watch out for too much inside ski pressure.
Nice to hear of an L4 seeing the light.


The White Pass turn MAKES otherwise futile racers use an upper body initiation, of course.
Then they go on to proper skiing while thousands are being warned off.

 

[chriscross]

The "real reason" would be very interesting to hear. Where is this short essay?

To be ignored? A PM, perhaps?

 

[KL.]

you know BBB, there are about 15 types of ski turns that are useful and perhaps even more. sandy really likes retraction extension with phantom. dbski likes step/pressure the inside ski carve. would you say that 15 is about accurate (maybe!).

 

[bawbawbel]

you know BBB, there are about 15 types of ski turns that are useful and perhaps even more. sandy really likes retraction extension with phantom. dbski likes step/pressure the inside ski carve. would you say that 15 is about accurate (maybe!).

The "real reason" would be very interesting to hear. Where is this short essay?

Sorry, no essay. Very careful about controvercies now. Learnt my lesson. And PMs, just like anything with a wifi, are open access.
Continue where we left off.
So how can Natalia's hint cover all 15 ?
You concentrate on body forward with shoulder sloped towards the new turn.
Some get it instantly, others take a lifetime..

 

[bawbawbel]

you know BBB, there are about 15 types of ski turns that are useful and perhaps even more. sandy really likes retraction extension with phantom. dbski likes step/pressure the inside ski carve. would you say that 15 is about accurate (maybe!).

Because Natalia gets people to turn effortlessly with her one line hint, there must be a common requirement in every one of those 15, regardless of what they have been taught, got from a book, have found by themselves, or have tried to copy from racers.
I suggest that it is getting leg(s) to go faster than the body. No?
Only then will a modern turn (on the snow) come around.

 

[bawbawbel]

Because Natalia gets people to turn effortlessly with her one line hint, there must be a common requirement in every one of those 15.
I suggest that it is getting leg(s) to go faster than the body.

There are many ways to achieve this, using ski compression, leg drive, or upper body windup.
You takes your choice, but if your outside hip gets left behind your turns are slow and energy sapping.
But to "Feel your femurs rotating" is a result of a good turn rather than an instruction.
Even strong skiers are usually mystified about how it all came together. (Natalia).
They don't want to mess it up.
Hence the declaration of ############## that he would not read my posts for a thousand dollars !

##### Moderator' note #####
You have named a poster who has not posted in this thread. It's a troll.
Next time you will get a ban
#######################

 

[bawbawbel]

If your outside hip gets left behind your turns are slow and energy sapping.

They degenerate into rough jump turns, the smooth ski stroking from tip to tail is lost.
An important part of Harb's phantom move on the inside ski is lifting it's tip.
When you put it down, it triggers Natalia's sloping shoulder move into the next turn.

 

[KL.]

you takes your choice, but if your outside hip gets left behind your turns are slow and energy sapping.

that is why there is one technique that indicates open the door then close the door where the hinges are your inside hip and shoulder... skis follow

and there is also reach for the sky with your outside hand and with the outside hand punch the gnome on the top of the head as it moves in the direction of the turn... skis follow. Isn't this what Ligerty does?

another 2 ways to turn... how about that, unweight then weight with controlled drive.

 

[KL.]

Hence the declaration of ############## that he would not read my posts for a thousand dollars !

I remember this in one of the other (many) threads but i do not remember who it was and it does not matter.

 

[bawbawbel]

that is why there is one technique that indicates open the door then close the door where the hinges are your inside hip and shoulder... skis follow

and there is also reach for the sky with your outside hand and with the outside hand punch the gnome on the top of the head as it moves in the direction of the turn... skis follow. Isn't this what Ligerty does?

another 2 ways to turn... how about that, unweight then weight with controlled drive.

Ligeti has an exercise that I have never seen anywhere else. He starts with a turn where his blocking of upper body rotation is exactly synchronised with release of the edges into transition into the new turn.
(That is where Natalia takes you.)
Then in each successive turn he blocks earlier.
This anticipation allows him, in competition, to time the next turn to where he wants it, but more importantly, gives faster transition.
He has explained it as "I just start the new turn before the last one ends".
Footfirsters are mystified at this, and lamely suggest that he pulls a ski back early to make it work.

I like your
"Open the door then close the door where the hinges are your inside hip and shoulder... skis follow".

 

[KL.]

I like your
"Open the door then close the door where the hinges are your inside hip and shoulder... skis follow".

glad you like it... it works and it works with less hand/arm movement.

I notice though that people often tend allow their inside hip and shoulder to become unhinged and when that happens leave them behind then with the skis they tend/try to lead the outside hip and shoulder using their legs (knees/feet)... generally crash and ouch when this happens.

 

[KL.]

and there is also reach for the sky with your outside hand and with the outside hand punch the gnome on the top of the head as it moves in the direction of the turn... skis follow. Isn't this what Ligerty does?

you do not like this precise form?

when Ligerty loops his hand/arm out and initially low then up to the sky, this action controls the drive and edging of the skis with early very early and sudden unweighting of the skis (ie very early but sudden transition). the hand then punching/touching (trying to) the gnome on the top of the head as the gnome moves in the direction of the next turn (ie the hand moves from a high to low position as it moves across the body in the direction of the next turn) turns the skis with very early drive and control of the next turn.

 

[KL.]

another method is where the body faces down the slope and for the new inside hip/shoulder, use the hand to open the gate (outward/inside low/high/low movement/transition) then use the same hand to close the gate (inside/inward/back low/high/low movement/block)... skis follow. i would suggest that bump skiers do this.

 

[KL.]

retraction/extension works but the issue is that the outside hip must work together with the leg unweighting/weighting. if the hip lags then the upper body becomes out of position with the lower body)... generally crash and ouch when this happens.

 

[KL.]

stepping on/pressuring the inside ski works but needs to be combined with the inside hinged open the door then close the door method... so that the outside hip does not lag and the inside hip stays hinged.

also, the stepping on/pressuring the inside ski works with the hand to sky then to gnome method and allows for less unweighting/weighting movement needed by the hand movement. ligerty probably also does this.

 

[KL.]

There are many ways to achieve this, using ski compression, leg drive, or upper body windup.

You takes your choice, but if your outside hip gets left behind your turns are slow and energy sapping.
But to "Feel your femurs rotating" is a result of a good turn rather than an instruction.
Even strong skiers are usually mystified about how it all came together. (Natalia).
They don't want to mess it up.
Hence the declaration of ############## that he would not read my posts for a thousand dollars !

##### Moderator' note #####
You have named a poster who has not posted in this thread. It's a troll.
Next time you will get a ban
#######################

BBB, I am glad that you are here, you make the forum interesting. I have never seen you as nasty, I don't know why they want to ban you, and think that you are NOT a troll (sorry, forgot to put the word NOT). I guess some posters need to be careful with their words and I guess other threads are regarded as more acceptable...

i haven't been skiing for 2 years, I think that I am beginning to loose interest in skiing (sadly) and haven't even been able to leave the country to go skiing (although and apparently this should change!). I wonder if there are more p...cs too come because and unfortunately, this sort of event could be and appears to be a highly probable state of affairs (or is that legislation)? One can't ski with a mask, can they? Let us see what happens in the future? I don't think that it will be that interesting or even fun but in this case I would like to be wrong and be able to go skiing again and enjoy myself, again? So let us hope that 2022 is dramatically better than 2020/21.

Have some fun when you can... is there a song about that???

 

[KL.]

BBB, I am glad that you are here, you make the forum interesting. I have never seen you as nasty, I don't know why they want to ban you, and think that you are NOT a troll (sorry, forgot to put the word NOT). I guess some posters need to be careful with their words and I guess other threads are regarded as more acceptable...

i haven't been skiing for 2 years, I think that I am beginning to loose interest in skiing (sadly) and haven't even been able to leave the country to go skiing (although and apparently this should change!). I wonder if there are more p...cs too come because and unfortunately, this sort of event could be and appears to be a highly probable state of affairs (or is that legislation)? One can't ski with a mask, can they? Let us see what happens in the future? I don't think that it will be that interesting or even fun but in this case I would like to be wrong and be able to go skiing again and enjoy myself, again? So let us hope that 2022 is dramatically better than 2020/21.

Have some fun when you can... is there a song about that???

sorry, I forgot to put in the word NOT but it is now there... sorry, mistakes happen!

 

[KL.]

BBB, it is interesting that no one corrected my post about not having NOT in the sentence and now that I have included NOT still no one has mentioned anything.

Fortunately I noticed that the NOT was missing and I have now included it in the sentence!

apologies for the mistake... keep well and have some fun!

 

[KL.]

Have some fun when you can... is there a song about that???

i think the song is... make this world a better place if you can and you can?

it would be good if the elites had this approach in mind in their endeavours but alas, self sacrifice or self greed... always a need to make choices, there are soo many!

I like this... have some (snow) fun when you can if you can

 

[bawbawbel]

@KL Our South Island visit did not happen (sad).
Looks like we have more in common than bashing gnomes.
Maybe that song could be Always Look On The Bright side Of Life.?
Simple things win.

 

[bawbawbel]

i think the song is... make this world a better place if you can and you can?

it would be good if the elites had this approach in mind in their endeavours but alas, self sacrifice or self greed... always a need to make choices, there are soo many!

I like this... have some (snow) fun when you can if you can

We must obey survival instincts, but when some which are logical are poopooed while others are boosted to the nth degree with daily reinforce, confusion reigns.
Sidetracking is also now an art.

So when skiing s'no fun anymore, what to do ?
In Denver, I got skied out, only more danger would do as I chased avalanche chutes.
Snoboarding for ten years was the answer, but I am going downhill, so to speak.

Judging from the smiles of the Easy Rider gangs on the road curves as they blast past our place, they have found sumthing..

 

[KL.]

So how can Natalia's hint cover all 15?

15 or more? I would suggest at least the following 2 points would be common...
- unweighting and weighting of the skies
- hips being in the correct position throughout the turn for the turn being performed and the snow terrain/condition/incline during the turn. Useful skiing methods generally encourage the hips to be in the right position by moving/pushing or pulling/dragging but there are a couple of methods where the person needs to learn (be aware) to lift, move/rotate, then lower the outside hip into the correct position (which needs to be in sync with the lower/upper movement) throughout the turn. The last one is perhaps why Hip Steering or similar became popular at one time.

 

[bawbawbel]

Good summary.
So we learn one or every method, then concentrate on Natalia's "leading joint" while performing them.
We forget about actually producing inclination etc and feel our body
driving the hips forward as we slope our shoulders down in the direction of the next turn.

 

[bawbawbel]

you make the forum interesting

Maybe only for people who like to think about how they ski.
Others may be inspired by my easy approach to Feathertop South summit.
And the late season snow on an historical run half way up.
But it is odd that not one of the "I've been up Feathertop every which way" clan here have tried it..
VSG flew over the last morsel of snow up there once apon a time.

 

[bawbawbel]

BBB, it is interesting that no one corrected my post about not having NOT in the sentence and now that I have included NOT still no one has mentioned anything.

Fortunately I noticed that the NOT was missing and I have now included it in the sentence!

apologies for the mistake... keep well and have some fun!

And no one corrected my deliberate calling the Feathertop North Summit the Feathertop South Summit.
So we can talk as if nobody is listening.
It is accepted that Australia was verdant 13 thousand years ago.
But nobody seems to realize that it was part of a world wide change as the North Geographic Pole moved from the Behring Straight to it's present location in a single day, due to an astronomical event.
New Zealand was connected to Antarctica by permanent seaice and the other side of Antarctica used to be ice free.
Hence my search for avalanche chutes on Feathertop, I knew I would find them.
And ski them.

 

[bawbawbel]

The Pole Shift had such extreme effects, viz the burial of a million mammoths and the exposure of alluvial gold locations and West Australian iron ore, that nobody has quantified what our skiing experience would be if it had not occurred.
This is the Antarctic Circle before The Shift, the latitude line is the direction of maximum disturbance, no change 90 degrees either side, of course.
(See "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings" ( Charles Hapgood) for evidence of 2 equators when old and new maps are combined.)

I can find no sign of skis in the cave art of the original Australians.
Maybe they were too busy surviving.
Their ever repeated head motif resembles the Egyptian horned bull.
Definitely a comet, always depicted with a bow shock, incandescence and illuminated eyes.
But probably much younger than the Dreamtime ?


Comet of 1700 something heavy dust interacting with magnetic sheath of the sun.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/0004803resultat0.jpg

 

[bawbawbel]

Now that I have provided a path to overcoming your engrams, we should be free to ski.
I think that I will invent a Freedom Turn to celebrate.
Reinvent, I mean.
Who tried the Jet Turn only to end up in the back seat ?
Try it now that you have Easy Skiing in your repertoir ... If that's where you are ?

 

[bawbawbel]

Now that I have provided a path to overcoming your engrams, we should be free to ski.
I think that I will invent a Freedom Turn to celebrate.
Reinvent, I mean.
Who tried the Jet Turn only to end up in the back seat ?
Try it now that you have Easy Skiing in your repertoir ... If that's where you are ?

Invented by Jean Claude Killy, once Putin's instructor.
A good start to a turn, with a subtle power transfer from the tails.
But it soon got out of hand because Feet First skiers could not do it without a convenient mogul to push against.

"JET TURN - A peculiar turn invented by Jean Claude Killy in the 70s and popularised by Martin Heckelman in the 80s, in which the ski tips "jetted" forward with the body weight going back and was meant as a technique for skiing moguls. Fortunately forgotten by most skiers and only mentioned here for completeness."

(We were all Feet Firsters in those days. My boots had no hinge, with backs halfway up to my knees.)
But not forgotten. Upper body movement fixes it.

 

[bawbawbel]

Commentary Continues:
From when Instructors could say what they were thinking:

" Skiing
By Peter Howard
Alpine Education/Certification
Chairman
One might presume because of the Skills,
the Fundamentals, body mechanics, turn
phases, and the skiing model that PSIA
has almost manufactured its membership’s skiing.
We could call it the Monsanto method, a sort of
monoculture where individuality is “bred” out and
turns look pretty much the same."

 

[bawbawbel]

Covid tactics- Watch DVD that you never did get around to watching.
"Chalet Girl" becomes snoboard champ one week after ten second tip:
" Skateboarding is weight back, snowboarding is weight central "
Aha !
But I recall updating the Instructor's Manual about that in a hundred places.

 

[bawbawbel]

Commentary Continues:
From when Instructors could say what they were thinking:

" Skiing
By Peter Howard
Alpine Education/Certification
Chairman
One might presume because of the Skills,
the Fundamentals, body mechanics, turn
phases, and the skiing model that PSIA
has almost manufactured its membership’s skiing.
We could call it the Monsanto method, a sort of
monoculture where individuality is “bred” out and
turns look pretty much the same."

I recall the thumbs down which I gave to Lito's book of 10 years ago.(Soft Skiing, The Secrets Of Effortless Low Impact Skiing for Older Skiers).
I had read only the Instruction Section, which was probably written by a devotee of the Monsato Method. ( Including starting a turn by stepping from ski to ski, for instance.)

Tonight I browsed the first part of the book, about Lito developing his instruction method.
Aha ! That's more like it.
A perfect summary of Natalia's "Effortless Skiing" basics !

"I had just finished reading Joubet's explanation of something he called "anticipation"..
His idea was that skiers could first turn their bodies to face down the hill, and then simply lean, or tilt in that direction, smoothly moving their bodies down the hill, and their skis would follow, unwinding easily, inevitably, beneath them into the turn. "

 

[bawbawbel]

I recall the thumbs down which I gave to Lito's book of 10 years ago.(Soft Skiing, The Secrets Of Effortless Low Impact Skiing for Older Skiers).
I had read only the Instruction Section, which was probably written by a devotee of the Monsato Method. ( Including starting a turn by stepping from ski to ski, for instance.)

Tonight I browsed the first part of the book, about Lito developing his instruction method.
Aha ! That's more like it.
A perfect summary of Natalia's "Effortless Skiing" basics !

"I had just finished reading Joubet's explanation of something he called "anticipation"..
His idea was that skiers could first turn their bodies to face down the hill, and then simply lean, or tilt in that direction, smoothly moving their bodies down the hill, and their skis would follow, unwinding easily, inevitably, beneath them into the turn. "

Very strange..
His instruction SHOWS how he rotates his upper body initially, and he stresses the importance of a WAIT moment .
Waiting for what ?
No mention of blocking the rotation, or indeed, of using arms for anything except "balance" !
Anticipation makes males mealy mouthed, after all.

 

[bawbawbel]

Lito, Lito, I am like a dog with a bone.
Effectively self-published, you were not subject to forced editing for commercial reasons.
Where is your message ?
He was climber with no ski experience.
Royal Robins got him a job as an instructor at an American school in Switzerland.
"I began to practice all the moves and maneuvers .. in the first PSIA manual .. surviving each attempted turn with something like a sigh of relief mixed with exasperation .. "
Not working.
Saved by book in French by Joubert, no less.

That anticipation turn must have become so ingrained in his technique that he forgot to mention it anywhere else in the book.

He then instructed at Lake Tahoe.
"I was demonstrating exercises that I later realized weren't very helpful at all "

 

[bawbawbel]

We're lookin at moguls, of course.
Our commentators delight in a " still upper body " (no time for anything else, of course), with only a fore/aft piston movement of forearms.
Any other arm movement gets labelled as belonging to a "technical skier", obviously an unfathomable and suspect technique.
Me frustrated that slow motions only focus on the feet !
Changing a shock landing into a carve with the right arm timing, that's all.

So long since we looked at stance, but it is hard to change.
Fascinated by Dianna (Harb's partner.)
One solution:
"When I first joined the Ski Team, I skied hunched over, so my coach made me ski with a ski pole stuck through my goggle strap, inside the back of my jacket, under my sports bra, and down into my pants. It bruised my butt at first, so she duct taped a sock to it for padding. I skied that way all summer at Mount Hood. It was miserable, but it worked tremendously. I never ski hunched over again."