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Snow chains, Q & A for 2015

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by snowtyres, May 27, 2015.

  1. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    Time for the ongoing snow chain thread to quit being contained in the topic "Aldi snow sale.......2015" and move a new thread "Snow chain Q & A for 2015"


    Here is the first Q........."And whats the difference between car chains and 4wd chains? According to the Konig chart I should get size 104 for a car or 240 for a 4wd - same tyre."
     
  2. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    OK, pray tell.
    Actually, I know that- 20 dollars.
    Checked surface hardness of Konig and Aldi with a file. There is a difference...............what does that translate to? o wise guru?
     
  3. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    The Aldi (Chinese) chains have a harder surface finish, checked with a diamond file, but the Konigs were of unknown age.
    Aldis are not self tightening but regarding bitumen running should last as long as any. Rubber tightener will eventually perish and could be replaced with a steel spring. None available for 215/65/16R.
     
  4. chriscross

    chriscross One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    How much are the Aldi chains?
     
  5. rdk

    rdk Hard Yards

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    Last year and this year Aldi did not have 225/65/R17 chains which is X-Trail/CX-5/CR-V size. The biggest car chains too small and smallest 4WD chains too big. Last year I went to multiple Aldis but none had that size and ended up buying chains at Coalition brands in Chapel St.

    This year I overheard people searching through the chains trying to find the same size - a bit of a gap Aldi missing there.
     
  6. alisha.

    alisha. Hard Yards

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    tired the aldi chains out for a short while on thursday (not much snow on the road, just a little ice) wanted to do a test run. when i stopped to take them off i thought i could smell a burning smell... would this be because of the chains against the road as opposed to snow?
     
  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    You are using your brakes too much, Alisha. Gotta change down a couple of gears and let the engine rev to avoid that.
    I have seen old Holdens lose their brakes at Harrietville due to overheating of the fluid. Worst case is when you have to follow a very slow vehickle, believe it or not.
     
  8. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    My immediate problem is advising my son, who is right now test driving the new Kia Sorrento, and will probly buy it today.
    I said " can you fit 2 fingers between the tire and suspension?"
    He sed "no, but we can get special chains for it"
    Spider chains?
    Hotham had better revise their chain rules, quick smart!
     
  9. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    In snow, drive fast and brake hard, the snow gives extra grip, and you have to work to break that traction!
     
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  10. alisha.

    alisha. Hard Yards

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    So has it got something to do with the chains and breaking? I must admit I forgot to put in low gear. Oops!
     
  11. Minion

    Minion Hard Yards

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    Hotham will not be changing the policy on Spider chains anytime soon. See the following link for why
    http://www.mthotham.com.au/all-about-hotham/latest-news/MTH_News_1-June-15_20993.asp
    Before you buy any car check the owners manual regarding chains, and don't rely on car salesman to give you correct advice.

    In regard to Aldi chains there used to be a cycling helmet advertisement that said;
    "Does your child have $200 feet and a $10 head"
    Same goes for snow chains, you are talking about an expensive car and the health and safety of your family and yet people see chains as a way to cheap out. Don't get me wrong aldi clothes etc are a great way to save money but there is no way I would go the cheap option when it comes to chains and the safety of my family.
     
  12. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just like the best snowboarders never sharpen their edges, the best drivers never use chains. It is possible to just bounce off the berms, and never touch the brakes because that is against the law of gravity. A snow drift will then eventually reduce their velocity.
    But you have a special responsibility, so here are chain tuneups:
    * If the rubber thingo is not tight, it might all come off. So connect it further down the red chain if necessary, by prising the hook open with a screwdriver and then bashing it shut a link down with a shoe.
    * Dont just stop and disconnect everything to remove the chains, obey the instructions and get the green hook near 12 oclock FIRST!
     
  13. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    why Aldi? the China effect is destroying the world as we know it. I call it the 50 dollar shop.
    Instead of 800 dollars for a fuel pump for my son's old 911, I got a perfect copy in 7 days for $50.
    Instead of 650 dollars for a German water circulating pump, cost just 50 dollars with "German" handbook.
    Spend money saved with Aldi chains on the very best ski helmet in the world, maybe?

    Minion, Spider type chains are the most expensive of all ?????
     
  14. chriscross

    chriscross One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    bbb, you are correct. I have Rud Centrax chains, v expensive, the only ones approved by manufacturer for my vehicle, but they are not approved for use at Hotham. Hence, I'm thinking maybe a pair of cheap Chinese chains might solve that problem and I'll just take the Rud chains to other resorts.
     
  15. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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  16. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    No, first let us have all the facts before us.
    First, the myth about diamond pattern chains. My heavy ladders were much stronger, less critical of correct fitting, and far more effective than the present generation of 10 mm and 14mm baubles. Last year I and three! other pushers just managed to get a loaded 2wd CX5 around Bawbaw's worst corner with 10mm diamond chains and NO snow under their wheels. We were eating gravel.
    Next, the gentle approach from Omeo produces no drama if a chain falls off. Plenty of room on the side of the road for unfortunates to consider their options. And easy enough to forbid entry to the Harrietville side without effective chains.
    Next, the inadvisability of fitting standard chains to very low profile tyres (if they can find room to fit them) . They just walk off the wheels. Just a matter of time before Hotham is SUED by an accident victim who had to leave his 700 dollar hub attached chains at home.
    Finally, not many single visit skiers are going to fit an alternative set of winter wheels and tyres to comply with an arbitary rule. They will go elswhere, of course.
     
  17. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    From 2013:
    "NOT ONE single person I know who uses 'spider chains' has EVER had ANY problems with them when properly fitted!
    If there really was a genuine problem, there'd be evidence all over the internet - so WHERE IS IT??? I've looked, and besides all the glowing reports/reviews on 'spider chains' from highly satisfied users, the ONLY disparaging comments came from ONE person spreading the same self-serving propaganda under various aliases (such as "snow tyres", "urq20" and "Richard Townley") in chat forums."

    Maybe drivers whose Spiders gave trouble are too embarrassed to admit it after spending so much on chains that tighten themselves and can be set up for different wheel sizes. Maybe Hotham is too embarrassed to admit that they have been conned by a vested interest group!
    Anybody??
     
  18. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    What's the view on the snow socks? The tyre snow socks that is?
     
  19. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    I have some (I have a Forester, so in NSW do not need chains) to fit when things get a bit slick. I haven't used them in Australia.

    In France the 4WD I hired from Europcar in Bourg St Maurice came with them and I fitted them on the drive up to and down from Val d'Isere. They were easy to fit and remove. Traction was impeccable on the snow-covered main drags and steeper roads up to my accommodation. The ride was very smooth - no vibration like you get with chains.
     
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  20. blutek

    blutek One of Us

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    "What's the view on the snow socks?"
    ... for 2WD or AWD?
     
  21. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    As if Hotham is as extreme as Val d'Isere
     
  22. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    The road up to Hotham is definitely more extreme than the road up to Val d'Isere.
     
  23. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    but not more EXTREME than the roads in NZ.
    them pesky kiwis
     
  24. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    AWD for me.
     
  25. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    Here we go, yet again
    Textile or fabric snow socks, (Auto socks or Rud Soft Spike etc), are not approved for use as a snow chain in Victoria for 2WD, 4WD or AWD vehicles or in NSW for 2WD vehicles.
    In NSW, a textile or fabric snow sock can be used on any vehicle other than a 2WD because, because at this time, there is no requirement to use any snow chain "or traction device" at all on these types of AWD/4WD vehicles.

    refer http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents...vsi-57-driving-in-ice-and-snow-conditions.pdf

    Snow socks that comply with the test procedures V-5121, and are marked V-5121, are defined in V-5121 as a 'traction device' & NOT a snow chain, never have been a snow chain, never will be a snow chain.

    The only test standard for snow chains is V-5117 and V-5119
     
  26. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Yep and the RTA in NSW recommends you leave your wiper blades up
     
  27. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    I thought that had already been made clear.
     
  28. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    The wiper blades?

    get the feeling the regulations are regurgitated crap?.

    I love seeing cars in japan, in more snow than Australia gets in five years.
    with spider chains
     
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  29. Egbert

    Egbert One of Us

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    Almost reads like you nicked the sox from your hire car - just like they were hotel slippers.
     
  30. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    You start a Q&A thread and complain when someone asks a question?

    Be that as it may as a NSW resident AWD owner they may be the goods.
     
  31. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    MTH have banned spider chains because of the issues they have found when spider snow chains are used on high performance 2WD or AWD summer tyres on the GAR.

    http://www.mthotham.com.au/all-about-hotham/latest-news/MTH_News_1-June-15_20993.asp

    The spider chain will grip to the snow/ice but the summer tyre can slip or spin inside the spider chain as there is no way the chain can be tightened on to the tyre. The spider chain is always loose by design to provide the automatic-drive away fitting and easy removal features.

    The problem is worse when the vehicle has been parked at the resort because of the low ambient temperature makes the summer tyres harder and therefore has even less grip to the chain and is compounded by the camber of the road, the weight and torque of the vehicle and the large amount of tread on the tyre that is not covered by the chain.

    Testing of any snow chain, diamond pattern or spider chains, to comply with V-5117 & V-5119 is only ever conducted on winter tyres. Thule, Konig and Rud snow chains will not provide any guarantee or warranty for chains used on vehicles for which the producer prescribes limitations or contrary directions.
     
  32. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    When you are buying snow chains you need to answer the following questions......

    “What does it say in the owner’s manual and are there any specific details regarding chains?”
    - This will help you understand what type of snow chain may be required.
    - This will tell you what axle to put the snow chains on (important for 4WD and AWD)
    - In some cases it will let you know what size snow chain links you need for clearance.
    - It may even tell you not to put chains on this vehicle as fitting snow chains to your tyre/wheel combination may not be approved by the vehicle manufacturer

    “What is your vehicle model and tyre size that the chains are being attached to?”
    - This will help determine whether you need Passenger or SUV type chains for your tyre size.

    “Have you checked your local roads authority and resort on what they recommend?”
    - NSW does not require chains for 4WD/AWD vehicles
    - Some resorts have their own rules (eg. Mt Hotham Spider Chain Determination)

    "Snow chain Warranty"
    Always remember Thule, Konig and Rud snow chains do not provide any guarantee or warranty for chains used on vehicles for which the vehicle producer prescribes limitations or contrary directions.
     
  33. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's interesting that the RTA and VicRoads are hung up about winter tyres, diamond patterns and snow socks. When you read their blurb (the background stuff) it is amazing how much it sounds like a forum member! I wonder how they even heard of things like winter tyres or snow socks - it all seemed to happen at the same time as a certain importer started bring in winter tyres and not bringing in snow socks. Hmmmm .... interesting. I wonder how it all happened. Couldn't possibly be vested interests involved there, could it?
     
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  34. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    This whole post is irrelevant - just another excuse to post blurb copied from you website, as you do every year. I think everyone here knows that stuff.
     
  35. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    "the summer tyre can slip or spin inside the spider chain as there is no way the chain can be tightened on to the tyre."

    Cut and paste, cut and paste the same rubbish year after year. And it obviously continues to work to your advantage.
    The summer tyre cannot slip or spin inside the spider chain as the chain is tightened onto the tyre by drive to the wheel and a rachet mechanism ."even on worn tyres"(Thule)

    And there is usually a 5 year manufacturers warranty which makes it very unlikely that they could be found "cast off on the side of the road".
     
  36. Chester

    Chester One of Us

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    I don't understand why Australian resorts or authorities (whoever has the final say) complicate the 'chain thing' so much?
     
  37. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer Social Media Mod Ski Pass: Gold

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    Petty Power Nazis?
     
  38. Chester

    Chester One of Us

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    I'm not sure what it is? There are much snowier places in the world that have a more realistic outlook. I can totally understand the need to carry chains in case adverse conditions prevail, but why they insist on dictating the type of chains is beyond me?
     
  39. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hotham have done good, by extra clearing and organising convoys off the mountain. THAT is what has improved their "statistics".
    But the chain regulation is now producing an impossible complication. Car owners who have paid extra for the "top" specification with "ribbon" tires end up with an impossible or dangerous "diamond pattern" requirement. These chains are also guaranteed to scuff the alloy rims for which they have paid thousands of dollars.
    A confrontation with a dozen cars fitted with recommended spiders refusing to turn back might be necessary to bring this farce to a head...
     
  40. sixty_eight

    sixty_eight One of Us

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    C'mon. Give him a break. At least he is spelling tyre correctly now. :D

    Still doesn't get that in australia we just have "tyres". No-one goes to Bob Jane and asks for "summer tyres".
     
  41. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    There are two options- Confront or Compromise.
    Confront- We get TV coverage and worldwide exposure: "Australian ski resort permits $30 snow chains but banns $700 versions."
    Compromise- Hotham announces a trial of spider chains "due to improvements in design".
    After all, they now incorporate "diamond pattern" design.
    [​IMG]

    I would much prefer the compromise
     
    #41 bawbawbel, Jun 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  42. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just sorting my metadata here to ascertain how many aliasses snowtyres has.
    But in the real world I note that two thirds of the vehicles parked at Hotham are four wheel drives. That indicates that Hotham attendance would hardly be affected by making 4WD chains the only chains allowed past the roadblock checkpoint. They could then reduce the continuous snow clearing, which must cost millions.

    I note that Roof Carrier Systems have uploaded utube with info on Rudd Centrax. Do you still sell and approve that manufacturer?
     
  43. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    I am not sure what BBB is on about but this post may clarify things.
    The many other viewers of this thread may find this snow chain information helpful.

    Roof Carrier Systems stocks the full range of RUD, Konig and Thule snow chain systems, including Centrax and K-Summit spider chains, and has been supplying diamond pattern snow chains, MTH compliant, since 1985
    http://roofcarriersystems.com.au/snow-chains/
    Rud Chains are the OE supplier of diamond pattern RUD-matic snow chains to BMW, Mercedes Benz and Porsche
    Rud Chains are the OE supplier of Centrax snow chains (MTH spider chains) to Volvo.
    http://www.rud.com/en/products/snow-chains.html
    Thule snow chains are OE supplier of Thule/Konig K-Summit (MTH spider chains) to Land Rover
    http://thule.com.au/images/product/file/Thule-Australia-Snow-Chains-Catalogue-2014.pdf
    http://www.thule.com.au/details.php?p_id=206&listid=20&slistid=&seo=Thule_K-Summit____K11_to_K45

    There are not the issues when using spider chains on winter tyres as there are when using spider chains on summer tyres.
    This is because the winter tyre "grips" the chain that interfaces with the road surface.
    The summer tyre does not grip the road surface and will not grip the chain either, this is what causes the problems.
    Because of these problems on the GAR the use of spider chains is no longer permitted at MTH.
    If you look at the images in the RUD and the Thule links their snow chains are fitted to winter tyres not summer tyres.
     
  44. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    So your can't use spider chains on Normal tyres at all?
    @Sandy you have a set don't you? On normal tyres?
     
  45. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I don't have "spider chains", if I understand the term correctly.
    Spider Chains:
    [​IMG]

    Those spider chains seem to be held on with with a clamp on one side. I suppose in extreme conditions, they could fall off.

    My ones are fitted on normal low profile tyres, then locked. The type of plastic used provides friction against the tyre rubber, so they cannot move, once fitted. They have steel studs embedded in the rubber.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    They provide more grip, and and better ride than typical good quality diamond pattern chains, and provide more grip surface.
     
    #45 Sandy, Jun 12, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
  46. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    However illegal at Hotham
     
  47. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    To be honest I don't understand why "chains" are made from chain.
    Surely a low temperature rubber like you'd get on snowtyres plus studs makes way more sense for Bitumen.
    NZ is a different story.
    You need the chain to break the surface on gravel, scree or clay.
     
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  48. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo Ski Pass: Gold

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    Don't get sucked in.

    There is not a single manufacturer of spider chains, that says they must be fitted to winter tyres.

    Just another snowtyres scare campaign.

    If snowtyres would like to post a spider chain manufacturer instruction, insisting winter tyres. Otherwise he's pulling it from his butt.
     
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  49. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    @Sandy .... What brand are your chains
     
  50. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Bro.
    You are hopeless at coercion