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Snow chains, Q & A for 2015

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by snowtyres, May 27, 2015.

  1. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Tell me your expert.
    (in other words you know sweet FA about winter tyres )
     
  2. Chester

    Chester One of Us

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    I know one thing for sure, changing from normal wheels/tyres, to winter wheels/tyres, and then back to normal wheels/tyres again is a 'freakin' pain in the arse. I do it twice a year and that's too often. I couldn't imagine doing it before and after every weekend for the sake of driving to an Australian ski resort, that has roads that are more often than not, bone dry.
     
  3. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo Ski Pass: Gold

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    Tell me all about your travels on winter tyres, in the Australian High Country and Country Tracks.

    What do you think the ratio of BFG's, or similar, to snow tyres, on 4WD's based out of Jindy ???

    Jindy locals would tell me you know sweet FA about driving a 4WD in Jindy and surrounding areas.

    But please, fit your Blizzaks. You'll be in your element for 10 days a year. <shakes head>
     
  4. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Not withstanding Blizzaks are a durometer tyre that is more appropriate to cold weather . ie frost, black ice. snow
    Its OK , I get your'e a weekend warrior that doesn't have a clue
    Nor actually appreciates that snow tyres are for temperatures below zero.
    A set of Blizzaks ex sydney will cost me 600-900 bucks....
    Rims -1000 bucks
    Peace of mind
    for 6 years
     
  5. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo Ski Pass: Gold

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    Bro please ..... I grew up in Northern Italy.

    Fit your winter tyres to live in Jindy. You'll have tyres that work best for 1% of your driving. Whilst the All-seasons will work best for the other 99%.

    You may think you know winter tyres. But simple Maths isn't your strong point. <shakes head>
     
  6. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Clueless

    Please define a All season tyre (your example0 vs a tyre eg a Blizzak...durometer, tread etc....
     
  7. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo Ski Pass: Gold

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    Off the top of my head.

    BFGoodrich All-Terrain T/A KO, with Snow Flake Symbol.

    Goodyear Wrangler All-Terrain, with Snow Flake Symbol.

    Best allrounders for a 4WD, for someone living in Jindy, and commuting to the mountains.

    Will maintain stability on asphalt for 99% of your driving. Perform adequately for the 1% on snow.

    Vs your Blizzak's which will be too soft and unstable on warm asphalt for 99%. But awesome 1%.

    Simple maths. No clue's required.
     
  8. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    Off-road and all-terrain AWD tyres are not specifically designed for on-road winter/snow driving. These types of AWD tyres are designed for off-road driving on gravel, sand and rocks and will have a very high noise level. Under cool conditions—not just cold or freezing conditions—the rubber in these tyres gets even harder. This stiffer tread compound does not conform to irregular road texture as well, and as a result has less actual contact with the road surface. Because off-road tyres have very limited siping on their tread they provide little traction in icy conditions.
     
  9. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo Ski Pass: Gold

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    The snow flake versions remain flexible in freezing conditions. Hence the snow flake.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo Ski Pass: Gold

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  11. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    fixed it for you.
    :out:
     
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  12. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    It wouldn't be so bad if he copied and pasted his own words, but when they're someone else's (without attribution)......! It's called plagiarism.
     
    #162 teckel, Jun 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  13. DidSurfNowSki

    DidSurfNowSki One of them Ski Pass: Gold

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    Why reinvent the wheel ? .
     
  14. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    I wrote that.
    Astro posted this tyre for me..
    OKayyyyyyyyyyy
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    I would get these
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Because they would look cooler as an oval shape. Sort of a perpetual motion elipse.
     
  17. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old n' Crusty

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  18. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Beware the snow tyre of unknown age. Once fitted a second hand road tyre with lots of tread. Deadly!
    So your set of snow tyres could be old and hard even before they are part worn. Better grip with NEW road tyres, surely.
    A motorbiker tells me he replaces tyres before 3 years old. Took a tank slapper and torn leathers to wise him up.
    .
     
  19. Towie97

    Towie97 Hard Yards

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    AFAIK all tyres have a code embossed on them for production date.
    ____
    T97
     
  20. themaninblack

    themaninblack Hard Yards

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    Ahh the old winter tyres and snow chains thread.

    I have lived through several Northern hemisphere winters. I have owned 'winter tyres' in Australia.

    The realistic need for winter tyres will depend on the driving conditions you face. For a Buller visitor Mirimbah to CSIR car park is 12 km, in a standard season, okay even a good season you might be driving the last 5km on snow covered roads at low speeds. The Nokian WRG2 (SUV) as sold by a commercial member here is an All Season tyre suitable for the highway drive to the mountain and the drive up in light snow in the wide range of mid-high performance SUV's so common these days. But so are a number of commercially available All season tyres such as the Pirelli Scorpion Verde All Season, these tyres will provide snow traction and handling far above a summer performance tyre but also provide good all year driving. Some All Season tyres are better in snow than others and research is required.

    Pure 'winter tyres' such as Michelin Alpin, Bridgestone Blizzak and Nokian Hakka may be safe for use in all conditions but the large tread blocking, deep siping and softer compounds mean that the will wear badly and handle in an inferior manner in normal road conditions in south east Australia where normal daytime ambient temperatures are around 5 - 20 degrees. Remember winters in Central/Northern Europe, Northern USA and Canada which is where these tyres are developed for will see regular temps of +3 degrees down to -40 degrees throughout winter. Our winters will generally only see those temperatures on the mountains themselves and even then around -5 will be the extreme at village level. Winter tyres will wear very badly in our summers and provide noticeably mushy handling.

    If i lived in the mountain regions and/or drove into the mountains on a daily or weekly basis then a set of winter wheels would be make absolute sense. For the majority of drivers who do a handful of visits a year to the snow a resonable balance needs to be struck. An appropriate All season tyre is probably a sensible balance in Australia, summer tyres are simply out for any winter mountain driving.
     
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  21. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    Good point BBB and this applies to any tyre
    refer
    http://www.nokiantires.com/innovation/facts-about-tires/faq/
    The manufacturing date on Nokian tyres?
    On all Nokian branded tyres, a four digit code shows the year and week when the tyre was manufactured. The manufacturing code has four digits, for example, the code "2106" means that the tire was manufactured in week number 21 of the year 2006. The tyre industry believes that tyres are safe for use up to 6 years after the date of manufacture.
    This date branding applies to any quality tyre, what is shown on 'budget tyres' from China, who knows!
     
  22. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    So I am guessing that my slightly over worn, eeking them out, regular tyres are less than optimal? Lucky I have FWD, about a tonne over the wheels, and years of off road and snow driving experience! Have yet to have a 'moment' in the van, had a few in the old Hilux though. Once when it was parked, I was sitting with the door open putting my boots on, and it just slid back about a foot!

    Friends who live up there use winter tyres, but for visitors I dont understand.
     
  23. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Weight is handy, but ice is never nice. Bus driver with empty chained up bus at Falls set handbrake and got out to get his wheel chocks. Ended up chasing the bus until came to rest in the snow at the edge of the carpark.
     
  24. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Winter ridermower mod. Best are tyres with rubber spikes, as this tears out the grass pretty easily.
    [​IMG]
    No snow, do some gardening, maybe?
     
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  25. kimberlee81

    kimberlee81 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I've just gone up from a Renault to a Skoda, acquiring 17" wheels in the process, so have had to buy a larger set of Biathlons. I will sell the previous set - used only twice - to anyone on here for $250.

    They are size BA10A, which suit wheel sizes; 195/65R15, 205/65R14, 205/55/R16 and 225/50R15.

    PM me if interested.
     
  26. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    I see a problem for you Kim trying to sell your used Biathlons at $250.00 when you can purchase a new set of self tensioning Thule CL-10 090 diamond pattern snow chains for $249.00 .The market for them is very limited as Biathlons, like Snow Socks, are only permitted to be used in NSW on vehicles other than 2WDs and not approved to be used at all in Victoria.
    CL-10s are compliant for use at Mount Hotham and all other alpine areas of NSW & Victoria.
     
  27. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's rather rude, ST :(
     
  28. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Tell it like it is! Not may people ares going to Hotham until they change their dogma.. To avoid tedious repetition first read htp://forums.ski.com.au/xf/threads/biathlon-chains-anyone-have-them.29864/
    Note the statement that all vehicles with drive to 4 wheels are included in the exemptions has proven futile eg BawBaw includes AWD with 2WD when mandating chains, after counting the unfortunates who had to be winched back onto the road..
    Biathlons with their tungsten studs have superior ice cutting ability which is very quickly worn away with most other chains.
    And would like to hear from ANYBODY who has NOT got alloy rim scuff from a season of "diamond" chains.
     
  29. themaninblack

    themaninblack Hard Yards

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    I think that Mt Hotham has taken a sensible path. Certain alternative traction devices may be good and may be not, some are reliable, some not. I don't know if the aforementioned 'biathlon' is a reliable and effective product and probably neither do the Hotham board. What I do know is that the Hotham road can be extremely treacherous especially at night and as a through highway a conservative and responsible approach to its operation in winter makes sense. It's really not hard to rent or own diamond chains, which are a proven device and it's not hard to fit them. Not sure why it's a topic of controversy. A few scratches on wheels, actually I have had very few but that's better than cars going off the road.
     
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  30. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    [​IMG]
    This image from Mount Hotham shows why MTH RMB & VicRoads have banned the use of spider chains on the GAR.
     
  31. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo Ski Pass: Gold

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    Pheeeew ............... Thank god the RMB didn't see all the photo's of poorly fitted diamond pattern chains you posted last year, or they'd be banned as well.

    [​IMG]

    Maybe Hotham should be helicopter entry only.
     
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  32. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    As shown, they are better than diamond chains because they actually have intact ice breaking points , ice is what causes ALL collisions on the GAR. Did you think that they should be located in the middle of the tread, or what?
     
  33. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    The reason it's an issue is that Hotham are the only place in the world to ban them, when there are an increasing number of modern cars that can't use them. An example of which includes such things as the Land Rover Discovery 4 with standard 19" wheels on it. Hardly a high performance low profile tyre, yet due to the lack of clearance on the front wheels to suspension components, spider chains are the recommended solution. Alternative is to fit diamond to the rear wheels (in contradiction to the manual).

    Oh and BTW why is snowtyres not a commercial member?
     
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  34. themaninblack

    themaninblack Hard Yards

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    This topic really raises the hackles. We have no testing or certification procedures for this in Australia and so rules are made without reference to a consistent set of guidelines. Why should someone driving a 4wd with snow tyres (snowflake mountain emblem) fitted have to fit chains at all on lightly snow covered roads? Hotham has taken a conservative path in the absence of guidelines. Australian drivers are not experienced in alpine driving and they have to use lowest common denominator approach. The also know that many people are arriving tired, at night and with crap tyres on their vehicles. They might not be technically right in all circumstances so ultimately someone needs to challenge them.

    As to the question of what constitutes a commercial member, that's an issue for the site admin I guess.
     
    #184 themaninblack, Jun 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
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  35. themaninblack

    themaninblack Hard Yards

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    Perhaps you need to do some research!
     
  36. hipo

    hipo One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    The research has been done in multiple European countries and in the US all of whom have approved the chains.
    How much research have the local authorities done and how much hearsay have they swallowed.:(
     
  37. themaninblack

    themaninblack Hard Yards

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    [​IMG]
    RUD Centrax
    [​IMG]

    Spider
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Centre of tread is only correct fitment.
     
    #187 themaninblack, Jun 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  38. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hope this explains the current commercial member status on ski.com.au,
    I received this message from Richard, The Administrator 29.05.2015.
    Hi,
    "This is a heads-up that we will no longer be offering 'Commercial Member' status.
    In a nutshell, it simply has not worked as a product for us, nor as a viable dynamic within the community.
    We will instead be working on a new way to promote commercial offers in the forum via the classifieds only - and when this is ready we will advise and let you know and provide you with $330 of credit as a token of appreciation.
    Your 'Commercial Member' status was due to automatically renew on 4 July via PayPal. I have now removed your commercial status and the automatic renewal will no longer proceed.
    In appreciation of your Commercial Member purchase I have upgraded you to Season Pass status which will expire on July 4, 2016.
    Thank you for supporting Ski.com.au, I trust you understand why we are making the changes."
    regards
    Richard.
     
  39. sbm

    sbm One of Us

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    Just trying to get my head around this. So to sum up spider chains are
    • Approved by the EU standards body
    • Recommended by the manufacturers
    • Used all over the world with no more problems than other types of chains
    However in theory this is dependant on
    • using EU standards all season or winter tires with the snowflakes, which no-one in Aus does.
    I see there's actually an argument to be had here.

    If Hotham had a problem with spider chains falling off all the time, surely though it's not hard to get a chains bay attendant to watch half an hours worth of instructional videos on Youtube, they'd have more clue than most people here after that.

    The thing that really blew my mind was that people were seriously suggesting to just, buy a new car if you want to ski at Hotham! My, why didn't I think of that, I'll just pick one up from Aldi when I'm grabbing milk on the way home from work. Actually, now I think about it my neighbour has a tree that grows automobiles with high wheel well clearances, I'll ask him if I can have any that fall on my side of the fence.
     
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  40. Egbert

    Egbert One of Us

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    So who had spider chains and used them at Hotham before they were banned? Did they stay on perfectly every time?
     
  41. snowtyres

    snowtyres Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hope this helps to explain sbm..............
      • Approved by the EU standards body
      • (Yes - Rud Centrax and Thule/Konig K-Summit spider chains meet O- Norm 5117)
    • Recommended by the manufacturers
    • (Only 2 vehicle manufacturers offer spider chains, Rud Centrax is the Volvo Accessory item, Thule K Summit is the Land Rover Accessory item, BMW, Mercedes Benz & Porsche offer Rud Diamond pattern snow chains. Other European vehicle manufactures offer diamond pattern snow chains from other manufacturers)
    • Used all over the world with no more problems than other types of chains
    • ( The use of spider chains is minimal compared with the use of diamond pattern snow chains. No problems with Rud or Thule spider chains when they used on winter tyres, the problems at MTH is because spider chains have been used on summer tyres)
    However in theory this is dependant on using EU standards all season or winter tires with the snowflakes, which no-one in Aus does.
    • (there are now hundreds of vehicles in Australia using winter tyres in alpine areas of Victoria, NSW and Tasmania)
    I see there's actually an argument to be had here. If Hotham had a problem with spider chains falling off all the time, surely though it's not hard to get a chains bay attendant to watch half an hours worth of instructional videos on Youtube, they'd have more clue than most people here after that.
    ( I think you will find the the MTH 'traffic people’ have an excellent understanding of the issues with different types of snow chains used on the GAR, there are not too many 'chain bay attendants’ around these days. The problem at MTH with spider chains is NOT the fitting it is because of the incompatibility of spider chains and the summer tyres they have been fitted to. If there was not an incompatability problem with vehicles using spider chains or ladder pattern chains on the GAR at MTH then MTH RMB and VicRoads would not have banned them.)
    The thing that really blew my mind was that people were seriously suggesting to just, buy a new car if you want to ski at Hotham! My, why didn't I think of that, I'll just pick one up from Aldi when I'm grabbing milk on the way home from work. Actually, now I think about it my neighbour has a tree that grows automobiles with high wheel well clearances, I'll ask him if I can have any that fall on my side of the fence.
    (Because of clearance issues and the AWD drive system, the only significant & ‘popular' SUV we have found that require the use of spider chains, and not diamond pattern snow chains, is the -2015 Volvo XC90 with 255 50 R 19 tyres . Land Rover Discovery 3 & 4 and the first generation Range Rover Sport are usually fitted with diamond pattern snow chains on the rear wheels even though the owner manual shows snow chains should be fitted to the front wheels. Snow chains are fitted to the rear wheels of the current model Range Rover Sport. We will have to wait until the new series Land Rover Discovery is release to know if snow chains will be required to be fitted to the front or rear wheels.)

    Remember there is NO warranty from Thule, Rud or Konig on the snow chains they offer if the snow chains ( any type, size or style,) they manufacture is fitted to a wheel and tyre combination that is not approved to be fitted with snow chains by the vehicle manufacturer.
     
  42. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo Ski Pass: Gold

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    Listen mate. I've been asking you for 3 years, to post any Car or Chain Manufacturers Documents that support this statement . And you never have.

    And yet, you continue to post this statement.

    I don't think it's too much to ask, for someone with obvious commercial vested interests, to provide supporting documentation, for statements influencing the purchase of his products, in an information thread.

    Ducky wants us to play nice. You make it very difficult.
     
  43. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    I would love to see the documentation that states snow chains only to be used with snow tyres.
     
  44. Chester

    Chester One of Us

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    So out of the total 13 million+ passenger vehicles in Australia .... "there are now hundreds (exact number not provided) of vehicles in Australia using winter tyres in alpine areas of Victoria, NSW and Tasmania"

    Does that tell you something?
     
  45. themaninblack

    themaninblack Hard Yards

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  46. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Why would we even believe that? When so many of his claims are totally unsupported by any evidence. At times it makes you wonder where he pulls these 'facts' from.
     
  47. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    If anybody has a think about it, how is it even possible that a requirement from most chain suppliers is that they require fitting to snow tyres??

    It doesn't!!! Look back 10 years, and most Aussies would never have even heard of "snow tyres", and yet EVERY Aussie snow sport enthusiast had chains in case they needed fitting.
     
  48. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I keep seeing mention of summer, and winter tyres, but what about your autumn and spring wear?
     
  49. hipo

    hipo One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Here & there
    Keep to the topic please - we're talking about tyres not atyre
     
    telecrag likes this.
  50. Barras

    Barras Addicted

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    Me, yes, they stayed on perfect on my summer tyres :D.

    Haven't been back to Hotham during the declared ski season since.