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South Face Road - trucks and trees and demonstrations.

Discussion in 'Mt Baw Baw' started by bawbawbel, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    We might run out of Fauna though! Can't regrow fauna.
     
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  2. Doonks

    Doonks Let's cook! Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Is the South Face Rd open to traffic now (27/01/19)?
     
  3. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    I assume so!
     
  4. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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  5. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sounds good, but independent regulation is sorely needed.
    Maryvale is a monster, protected by a tariff on imported copy paper. Bigger is better for shareholders, no doubt.
    It can only be tamed by complete transparency of all operational details. Surely, that is not too much to ask ?
    Who could argue against their latest project to burn all Melbourne's plastic waste by 2024 ?
    Well, their initial proposal was to burn "uneconomic forest logging waste".
    My nightmare is of hundreds of B doubles being paid at the gate for "anything that will burn, no questions asked".
    OK, works in Europe, but their polies are maybe more accountable.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-14/little-mermaid-in-copenhagen,-denmark/10115688
     
    #155 bawbawbel, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  6. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Hi Bbb.

    I hope they check for Koala & possum nests as timber waste gets rammed through the 'Gates of Mordor'.

    Where's 'Treebeard' when you need to drive out Saraman?
     
  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    He is immortal, of course. Always comes back when nobody is on the attack.
    What happened to the plan to use only plantation trees ? All quiet there ?
    One third of the waste that will be burnt for Maryvale power is left as ash with concentrated poisons.
    Ash will go to landfill "initially".
    "There will be stringent regulatory limits in place to monitor and control dioxins as well as a range of other potential emissions from the facility based on European regulatory requirements. These European limits are established based on safe levels for the environment and human health.”
    What about the European regulations re forest tree harvest ?
    Ignored ! Not good for reputation.
    Time for hard bargain. Some hope...
     
  8. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Chaeron and Pink like this.
  9. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    (The entire west side of the Thomson Dam is now shown to have been burnt by bushfire. ) edit: Maybe not. My minder points out that a "Black line with a gray fill " indicates an "Evacuation Area". Sorry.
    That was quick.
    The area will now be available for "salvage logging" , which is in addition to allocated coupes.
    Remember when catchment areas were protected to ensure water quality ?
     
    #160 bawbawbel, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
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  10. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    It's pathetic BBB, yes what happened to 'Melbourne water quality is ensured by "protected catchments" wear most activity is banned ' ?

    It seems this protection caper was just a thow away line. Marketing at best by various water authorities, state depts. and the state govts. Wiesel words - just future logging coupes.

    I wonder how pristine will those Thomson Catchments be after being burnt AND Logged?

    Perhaps we may need our own home filters for 5-10 years or perhaps swap to the de-sal plant that certain blue tie people swear we'd never need (/:-0 )

    Um day!!
     
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  11. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    All good. The fire was 10 km west of Aberfeldy.
    I would never suggest that the whole 6000 hectares are now available for clearfelling without replanting.
    I love my VicForests. :emoji_black_heart::emoji_black_heart::emoji_black_heart:
     
  12. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Obviously Huey didn't get the memo about not burning in protected catchments!
     
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  13. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    He wouldn't obviously not having the latest Windows upgrade!! ( ;-)

    ...but the a full scale salvo logging in a heavily burnt area would surely leave little to anchor the soil in these steep catchments and lead to increased soil erosion and drinking water turbidity (reduction in quality ... Yarda...)?

    Isn't that the main reason why catchment forest were previously retained in the Melbourne Water catchments??

    Or is there a change in the textbooks /theory in the last couple decades???
     
  14. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Who said it will be available for salvage logging? After Black Saturday, none of Melbourne's water catchment was salvage logged.
     
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  15. GS

    GS A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I thought the main reason behind keeping mature forests in the catchment was for max inflow into the dams. Actively growing young trees in burnt or logged forest absorb enormous amounts of water from the soil.
     
  16. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    An unlogged Thomson catchment would now be fireproof . This is the saddest fact, not that you no longer have an unlogged buffer around the shore to bushwalk.
    But for 1966 unlimited salvage logging was authorized in Thompson area, if I remember correctly.
    That is why I am suspicious of secret authorizations.
    Realistically, we should accept something like the 2006 proposal:
    100 hectare per annum gives 80 year rotation which results in a 25% reduction in water harvest.
    Hmm.. What is Victoria's Reflex harvest of Mountain Ash ?
    "The average harvest over the past five years is a historically low 3,000ha per annum. A revised native timber release plan will be released after the election."
     
  17. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    What??? Please explain. That makes no sense whatsoever.

    You're using an example of over 50 years ago. Construction of the Thompson Dam didn't even start until 10 years after that. It looks as though you're running a scare campaign based on thin air.

    It reminds me of someone who told me of a baseless rumour that they were logging the Black Spur after Black Saturday. That was utter b/s.
     
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  18. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    bawbawbel said:
    An unlogged Thomson catchment would now be fireproof . This is the saddest fact, not that you no longer have an unlogged buffer around the shore to bushwalk.
    What??? Please explain. That makes no sense whatsoever.

    You need diversion. Me too, as I saw a great mushroom cloud erupt in the direction of Hazelwood before dark. No explanation yet.
    From Vicrainforests.org:
    "The practice of clearfell logging is converting the wet ash forests, that are naturally more fire resistant, into drier environments that are more fire prone. A big bushfire in the Melbourne water catchments is the greatest threat to water supply"
    But there is more to it. The microclimate above regrowth areas changes so that rainfall is suppressed.
     
  19. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    The moon is visible beside Venus this morning. Thank our lucky stars for the lack of wind.
    A white eruption must be caused when a water drop flashed into vapour and then condenses.
     
  20. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Can 'we' agree to anything on this thread people?

    A few irefutable facts to me:
    - go to any current sattlelite image of Victoria - most central highland state forests look like or are beginning to look like Swiss cheese - mostly due to clear feeling. This is especially so in the Rubicon forest north east of Marysville and the Tooronga /Baw Baw forests. We're running out forest to lof or protect. (I'm not counting dry scrubby unviable areas and Snowgum areas). This enlarged mosaic of logging really worries me - where's the protected areas for our species to survive. Fauna can't just regrow!

    Our forests are warming and drying (can't just blame logging here) and burning much easier as BBB noted. But as I understand, logging dried out the forest in the short and long term - so this becomes a dangerous mix when dispersed throughout the forests. We as users and managers of our forests don't seem to we willing to consider nor accept that this link (logging vs drying vs fire risk) occurs. When we do, maybe we can start to mitigate the increased fire risks as our region warms and dries.

    One problem with provision of good solid evidence to the public re these issues is that it's largely held by govt departments plus university researchers. The latter tend to be more independent but the former are mired in the govt mantra of the day and prevented from providing independent facts. Is it any wonder then that it's hard getting fact-based forest policy and hence we end up going around in circles re these issues (climate change anyone?)

    Perhaps we need new forest managers totally independent of govt (do they exist!) and then act on this advice while still something to burn!
     
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  21. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    If people insist on posting rumour as fact, somebody said something so it must be true, old wives tales, crap about stars lining up (or whatever - couldn't understand that one), somebody has to call them out. Bullshit = bullshit, regardless of who said it, and regardless of best intentions.
     
  22. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    What explanation do you need? What do you mean it erupted? Did it grow, or did it collapse? And what's the concern? (Yeah, there's a fire in them there parts)
     
  23. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Baw Baw resort closed for the day due to fire threat!
     
  24. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Done the same for LM! Stupid!
     
  25. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Should we turn aside from the brutal truth ? Maybe we can't handle the truth, which is WE ARE THE EASIEST POPULATION ON EARTH TO MANIPULATE.
    The only country on earth to legislate for hidden partners on every internet contact.
    Women being USED as public "OICs" to soften the image of gangster government departments.
    Whistleblowers looking at jail instead of protection.
    Let us look at our Leunig to keep us sane.

    Fact ttime
    "The average harvest over the past five years is a historically low 3,000ha per annum. A revised native timber release plan will be released after the election."
    In 2008 catchment harvest was 380 ha. and there was an election promise to phase it out in 2 years.
    Not a big sacrifice THEN.
    Where is a new promise ? Worthless.
     
  26. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    It seems that you're the one turning from the truth by posting rumour as fact, lining up the stars etc.
    As for your "fact ttime" stuff: Maybe you should ask Daniel Andrews. Just because my name's not Daniel doesn't mean I'm the one turning from your 'brutal truth'.
     
  27. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Because you can, you no doubt call bs wherever you become aware of it, specially in "News" and politics..
    Most people cannot, because they are caught in the Subservience Trap:
    1. Dept Trap: Caught in mortgage and credit card commitments. Don't rock the boat!
    2. Education Trap: People living by instinct instead of intellect are fair game. HECS fees discourage mind expansion.
    3. Penalty Trap: Governments love to make litigation expensive and rebellion crippling.

    We could make personal resolution to find representatives who will be devoted to true Independence for Oz.
    On behalf of a proud population and firefighters.

    P.S. Did you know that the 1939 fires started in the Bunyip State Park ? Better luck this time..
     
  28. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Huh? What's that got to do with anything? :confused:
     
  29. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    I am wondering how everything has gone up ship creek in just 10 years, and how we might get back to where we were, before both parties sold their souls.
    Have a good giggle about 2008:
    "Herald Sun
    June 16, 2009 07:08am

    Australian forests are the world's best at storing carbon, a key weapon against climate change, researchers say.

    All trees absorb carbon dioxide and store it as they grow, but some forests lock up more carbon than others.

    The Australian National University scientists measured 132 forests around the planet and found that mountain ash forests in Victoria's central highlands were the most carbon-dense of all.

    Carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere is one of the main causes of climate change.

    Victoria's forests were so rich in carbon because they lived in a cool climate, which slowed down the decay of the trees, the researchers said.

    The trees were very old - up to 350 years of age - which meant they grew heavy, dense wood, and the forests had not been logged. "

    Err..yes, of course.
    P.S My minder has left me tonight, and taken all the dogs and cats. :(
     
  30. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    What do pollies fear most ?
    A fully funded campaign by vested interests.
    On National TV.
    Not good.
    We need an army of fact checkers and bull callers to laugh that stuff off the air.
    Their platform would be local TV.
    It is a little known fact that the government wanted only national ABC FM broadcasts.
    One man was key to the push for regional programs.
    In some areas locals physically prevented technicians from changing over their transmitters.
    People power.
     
  31. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    We must learn from history or it repeats ad infinitum.
    Thomson is the only catchment to allow logging.
    "Salvage Logging" was the entry ticket.
    The "Timber Release Plans" (8 months overdue) will be signed "after the election").
    Now the entire side of the dam is shown as burnt out in a day.

    Heads up from the Rubicon Forest Protection Group:
    "
    The huge forest fire now "under control" along the western side of our Thomson Dam has not attracted much media because no houses have been dramatically lost.
    However, it has serious ramifications for our water supply, and for timber resources. These can be aggravated by our management of the area over the coming year, while the soil lacks vegetation to protect and to hold it together when rain does arrive.
    Bushfires lead to demands for "salvage" logging. The machinery churns the topsoil, making it much more erodible, adding far more dirt to the dam with every rainfall. It destroys the natural layering of the seedbed upon which our forests depend for sustainable recovery. We need to protect this area particularly carefully to ensure that short-term opportunism does not even further destroy its critical long-term forest and catchment values.

    In government, it's the blind leading the weak
    How is it that the environmental and economic values of native forests are obvious to everyone except the state government.?
    The best parts of Strathbogie's native forest are again scheduled for logging, sanctioned by the weak Environment Department. Under its watch we are seeing the destruction of invaluable services; water security, carbon capture, biodiversity, pollination, tourism and amenity. While local communities like ours campaign to end this mindless destruction, no one in government has the guts to acknowledge or act on data that in the end will damn us all.

    Reckless refusal to take account of future fires
    Ross Gittins highlights the determination of the state government to sacrifice high conservation-value forests in water catchments to appease vested interests. A worse example of environmental profligacy is its refusal to take account of the impacts of climate change and increasing bushfire risk in timber allocation orders.
    After Black Saturday, when 13,500 hectares of ash forests died across the Central Highlands, the rate and intensity of logging in the unburnt ash forests continued undiminished. Even today, VicForests' timber supply outlook, advising government of how much forest is available for logging, takes no account of future fires.
    "
    No TRP.
    "In the meantime, Vicforests is working with industry to make sure there is adequate supply under the existing TRP "
    Which includes the Thomson :(

    Then just gimme the Thomson facts:
    1. Check of actual burnt area, please.
    2. Daily truck haulage numbers, please.
     
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  32. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Have to say, it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to understand that if large quantities of burnt trees are removed on the sleeps above the Thompson Dam catchment, then (even) greater quantities of soil will be washed into the reservoir - especially after the first few heavy downpours.

    How our Government / DELWP can justify logging in the Thomson Catchment after a fire is beyond belief and shows just our little they care for the environment generally and our drinking water and human health in particular!

    Enlightened intelligent beings should not be doing this. (l:-(
     
  33. djam

    djam One of Us

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  34. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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  35. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    The new OCR is toothless.
    "
    "Office of Conservation
    Regulator
    The Office of Conservation Regulator (OCR) ensure compliance with legislation
    administered by DELWP – including for timber harvesting in state forests.
    The OCR is not responsible for the development of timber harvesting policy in
    state forests. The OCR does provide feedback to policy areas of DELWP on the
    functioning of timber harvesting laws including opportunities for improvements
    to support outcomes and enforceability."

    VicForests can identify and "protect" strips of rainforest in south facing gullies and include all other areas in logging plans.
    Why does OCR hope to to survey only 20% of the coupes for rainforest ? They will miss most significant areas, no doubt.
     
  36. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    #187 bawbawbel, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  37. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Or in National Parks. Way is now open for salvage logging there to tidy up a bit.

    Bawbaw village has been protected by 2 planned burns in the Thomson catchment.
    I don't think there will be a new Timber Allocation Plan any time in the near future.
    Nothing to allocate, scavengers will rule.
     
  38. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Forest Conservation Victoria at Icy Creek expect that logging will resume after 11 day pause due to protest activity.
    Spare a thought for the protester suspended at 25 meters on a platform tied to logging machinery.
    Brr.
    Narracan member Gary Blackwood said that it had cost the logging contractor thousands of dollars.
     
  39. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Call in to Icy Creek after your BB trip via Tanjil Bren.
    We have made the big time !
    Australia was number one in the world last year for National Park area reduction. (Coral Sea helped mainly ).
    Too bad about the ten thousand year old Artesian Basin water, too. Gotta beat the Sahara, baby.
     
  40. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Silver

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    Only when all of Australia resemble the moon' s surface will the rock apes who are raping the planet be happy and only then we will all learn that we cannot eat money.
     
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  41. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    "One logging contractor lost thousands of dollars", I'm trying to remember when a crown forest belonged to just one or two contractors - simply to make a profit.
     
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  42. chriscross

    chriscross One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    After my trip to bb in early June, I am seeing how some of the pieces above link up. On the way between Icy Ck and Tanjil Bren, I saw more lyrebirds than I have ever seen by the road, at least a dozen. But they were behaving wierdly, scrambling off the road at the last minute. Scratched head and drove on. Enjoyed ski tour at bb. Drove back down and was astonished to see a similar number of lyrebirds behaving in similar ways. Thinking: this is most unusual, then lightbulb - the log truck sign had been flashing near Ballantyne's Saddle. I slowed down as I drove through that area and looked out to the right; sure enough, through the thin cover of trees remaining along the ridge (to screen logging from the road, like they do in Tas) it was apparent the whole valley had been clear-felled. Nothing left. No wonder birds were looking for somewhere to live. Let's not think about possums, etc. A depressing thud back to reality after meeting the Parks guys at Msg checking Leadbeaters possums the week before. Our taxes at work, subsidising wholesale destruction of forests (unprofitable) to preserve a few hundred jobs for rural members of a key, powerful union. Surely there's a better way!
     
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  43. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Now it's easier for the feral cats to find the lyrebirds!
     
  44. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    How f***n depressing! Yes, interesting to see them try to hide their ops from the road - I didn't the native timber industry really gave a dam about public perceptions - clearly I'm mistaken.

    But don't they know it will all be on Google Earth in future months in all its glory.

    The logging pattern in Sth /central Vic looks a lot like Swiss cheese these days - but the wholes are expanding and practically joining leaving little cheese body left.

    It's a disgrace and needs to change. Nothing against the individual workers - they only want a decent living and the state should help them to transition - now!

    But it's madness to trash what was such a rich and wonderful part of the state for a few hundred - or even a thousand pay checks in an industry with few guarantees - after all, as we've seen in the last 16 years, one or two catastrophic fires can totally wipe out trees, the industry and fauna.

    Sorry Winston!
    'Never before have so few done so much to stuff it up for so many.' And take so long to recover - if ever.
     
  45. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Silver

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    A disproportionate amount of influence upon the State ALP Govt. comes from so very few , all such people are in heavy weight Unions such as the CFMMEU and the damage to our environment and natural heritage is so great. The answer is not necessarily another National Park . The solution is give to the couple of hundred of blue collar workers who are chopping down all of our forests retraining and a stipend while they make the transition into environmentally sustainable employment .Will this happen? NO. You'd be sooner wary of low flying pigs on the wing but with no trees left to obscure their flight trajectory you will have a better chance of ducking out of the way should they swoop.
     
    #196 Mister Tee on XC Skis, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  46. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    VEAC has suggested 50,000 ha of State Forest etc in the west be proclaimed National Parks.
    Maybe there is no logging potential there.
    "Motor and trail bikes and 4WDs will continue to be allowed in national parks on declared roads and tracks, as will camping and many other recreational activities, which is noted in VEAC’s report."
    You lucky lot !
    But, Wilderness, it is not...
     
  47. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Not sure all NPs have to Wilderness - just check out various NPs close to the cities and many of the pocket & coastal parks.

    I'm not much of noisy trail bike lover (most seem to have a death wish on my 4WD treks.,) but I'd rather stop logging while there's a bit of native bush left, argue the toss about Rd access (Mt Stirking anyone?) than wait for a 'perfect' scenario in 20-30 years.

    I know there's been quite a bit of logging until recently in Wombat & Around Mt Cole/Buangor.

    Not sure about Lederderg? Maybe the less steep, scrubby higher ranges saw some felling?

    Like the Box Ironbark NPs, not a bad first step.

    And if parkies stop all motorised travel all of a sudden they'll lose the people.

    Now to turn our attention to the central highlands while some fauna survives. (/:-/(
     
  48. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Silver

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    VIC. is the most heavily cleared state in Oz. .Some substantial and diverse stands of trees must be left for flora and fauna habitats to survive and to ensure water catchments are not compromised/ruined.
     
  49. Belly

    Belly A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    There is some good arguments in this thread but they come across as disjointed and emotive. I'd be looking at:
    1. What is the outcome you are looking for?
    2. If it is a complete abandonment of native logging then what are the impacts / costs, sure there are jobs but what about the impact at a product level. More clearing in Indonesia or other less developed economies, other product substitutes that are less net environmentally friendly. And remember we mass cleared our forests at a point in time for multiple purposes, build things, create farmland etc.
    3. If it is a more sustainable socially acceptable model what does that look like? For instance nsw seems to have less social disquiet.

    I know one thing, the main mill in question produces structural lumber in addition to more niche products (floorboards, furniture etc). Maybe the former could go ;) just a tip and this may go a long way to adjusting the model.
    * many years ago I worked for a former owner of the said mill.
    Take it easy ;)
     
    Chaeron likes this.