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South Face Road - trucks and trees and demonstrations.

Discussion in 'Mt Baw Baw' started by bawbawbel, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Silver

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    Hemp can be used as a crop for fibre . It grows quickly, it is an annual crop and can be used to make robust sturdy panels akin to chipboard or ply wood , sails/rope/cloth, cooking oil, bird seed/feed for animals, medicine for glaucoma and nausea, and much more. It uses little water compared with rice and cotton and originates from often arid climates.
     
    #201 Mister Tee on XC Skis, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  2. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hooray for social disquiet ! So we need to visit NSW for forest style peace and quiet.
    This new park proposal is another red herring to deflect the plan for a logical amalgamation of the existing national park fragmentation.
    Sacrifice our forests to save Indonesian forests ? Good luck with that one.
    You probably have the figures- What is the present ratio of pulp to structural timber production in our native forests ?
    Am I wrong in suggesting 10 to 1 ?
     
  3. Belly

    Belly A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I could craft out a well considered response but I suspect it would fall on deaf ear's and I also suspect this is a key reason as to why the Vic native forest sector is significantly broken! I had a bit of capacity this morning to contribute but I have my own life priorities and right now they are a long way from the Vic native forest scene..... As I said, take it easy ;)
     
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  4. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Taking it easy not so easy as we witness the forest finale now taking place.
    About now was the promised transfer to all plantation timber, don't forget.
    If your priorities include recording Philip Adams you will tonight hear an interview with an expert on the demise of civilizations.
    "The usual return to hunter/gathering was caused by extended drought."

    Science will save us ? Not if we get our own Pol Pot.
    Gaia better have something up her sleeve...
     
  5. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Evening Belly: I know hardline greenies probably don't like listen the Forest sector but the reverse is very true - or at least in many cases.

    There seems to be an argument - at least on the outside - that 'because we've always logged we should just keep on logging ad infinitum'.

    Forgetting possums and cute furry critters a second (2 sides will never agree on this!), even the most optimistic logger company or worker will realise that at the rate we are travelling, there'll be very few old growth (1-300 year, 80-110m, f'ng wide!) loggable' forest left.

    Yea, there'll be Snowgum and mixed wattle, dry mallee and coastal scrub, and whatever, & there'll no doubt be lots of recovering burnt and former logged forest, but not the old stuff - yes the stuff that keeps fauna alive and thriving and they type most people like visiting, photographing, driving, walking, biking, riding through, camping in etc...

    The few somewhat intact older growth that's not burnt to the burgeezez will be surrounding dams with access points fenced off. Important Not much fun for anyone!

    And there'll be very little that doesn't have a labyrinth of former logging roads and tracks, erosion gullies, blackberries (cows seem to leave these!). Who wants to visit this sort of forest?

    So what us 'Greener' types are trying to achieve is prevent the inevitable while it's still possible.

    And jobs can be turned around gradually into other areas - much like 10-20 thousand vehicle manufacturing and component supplier jobs across the SE.

    Like jobs transferring from coal pits to solar panels and wind farms, tourism and agriculture.

    It needs a proactive State and preferably , Fed Gov. But the latter have shown no interest in saving forests since Bob lost to Keating - so I hold little hope there.

    This transformation can't be that hard -particularly with strong engagement btn VicGov and the forest sector, and good incentives for transition. Plus obviously better planning of managed /plantation forest for structural timber and paper.

    This sort of transition has happened in many sectors, all over the world and over centuries. It can happen here with willing participants.

    Sorry my 5 bob - that's enough for now.
    SG
     
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  6. Belly

    Belly A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Congratulations on articulating a realistic argument and plan. I don't disagree with anything you wrote. And whilst I may come across as an industry sympathiser I did write that many good arguments are made in this thread, they just aren't very organised nor realistic. And FWIW I left the industry because I made too many noises that the (financial) sustainability of the then popular plantation investment model was not viable, an analysis that proved to be true. My deeper expertise is (was) on the plantation grow side but I know enough about the native scene to know it's broken (as posted). But my view is the industry can exist but as you suggest it's needs work.
     
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  7. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Cheers Belly, fascinating to be an insider! And great to have your insights here.

    I suspect plantation timber will look very expensive while the State subsidises (almost gives away?) native forest. Now I don't know what a 'decent' price is (perhaps look at other western countries) but it appears VicForests barely turns a small profit - despite selling the rights to what? hundreds/thousand tonnes timber? So it's return to State isn't great on a $ per job basis. - in my opinion.

    Then there's a whole cottage industry of road building and maintenance, mapping, surveying, auditing, flora and faunal inspections, rehab & resewing/fire management that in the main, wouldn't be incurred if logging didn't happen.

    I wonder. Does VicForest charge out all these expenses? Or is it absorbed by the state? Could be putting this opportunity cost to better use? All important questions with the RFAs up for renewal.

    But one will rarely here these matters (costs) reported publically. And it's 'our' land and our timber.

    The public deserves to have a say in the use (loss) of it valuable resources - well in my (old fashioned leftie!) book. Now if the industry involved sand-mining on Brighton or Manly beach, you can bet it would never be allowed. Whatever the money. But deep in the hills out of sight of 98% people, forestry is a total different set of values in play.
    .......

    Anyway,
    It's getting late - Time to sign out for the night.
    SG
     
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  8. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Robust discussion Team Bears are following...
    Not an easy path this forest management !
    Actions with consequences.
    Silvicultural issues?
    DBHOB always an issue for those small bears!
     
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  9. Belly

    Belly A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    All those expenses you mentioned are real. 'Charged out' or 'absorbed', well the devil would be in the detail (internal bucket, revenues, you could argue if the state govt received grants or the like for checking on the wombats and the local forester performed then that is a revenue augmenting the core log revenue). I suspect the private sector had more sophisticated cost management (& planning) practices but can't comment with authority on VicForests.
    BBB wanted stats on log production (timber happens at the mill), this used to be publicly available but the log classifications (sawlog, pulplog, firewood, etc) are arbituary benchmarks and ultimately a 'nice' log could go to a niche mill and direct to furniture and then balance to pulp, gardens, biofuel etc. I don't know enough about native structural lumber but personally I'm not convinced it's needed outside of very discrete applications.
     
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  10. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hmmm. All those shipping containers contained "nice" logs, I bet.
     
  11. Belly

    Belly A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm out of here, you started this thread, you clearly see it as your role to belittle anything that is posted that you don't agree with.
     
  12. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    "The entire mountain ash forest was listed as critically endangered on International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) Red List of Ecosystems in 2015."
    Not the possums, the FOREST itself.
    Sorry, nothing personal, but this is much bigger than both of us.
    A thousand tons of ash logs going to pulp PER DAY.
    Leaving nothing for the little mill, the easiest target.
    So here is my solution:

    *
    Greenvale gets it's plan to burn Melbourne's plastic fast tracked, but only with the present wood supply contract changed !
    *

    No pissweak politicians in the negotiations.
    Much as I hate to admit it, we would need a horse trader to make the deal.
    Someone like Dumper from the You Ess of Aye, no doubt.

    PS. stuff you didn't know. I wonder how you missed it ?
    Melbourne. Today>
    "
    • Extinction Rebellion Victoria will stage a “Die In” to protest the continued logging in our native forests, rejecting the memorandum of understanding between state and Commonwealth, which agreed exemptions from environmental laws will continue.
     
    #212 bawbawbel, Jun 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  13. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Mister Tee on XC Skis likes this.
  14. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Stirring stuff:
    Nobody arrested, nobody spoken to rudely.
    Their authorized protest let them block a road with a banner for ONE traffic light cycle.
    Success !
    Two motorists read the banner.
    Meanwhile, an April extension of RFA allows clear felling in one thousand coupes over 3 years.
    And "VicForests argued that the case for injunctions must fail because it has recently started trialing less damaging logging methods."
    Maybe "clear felling" will then be called "unrestricted removal of vegetation". Fixed!

    edit:
    "" Australian Paper has a contract with the Victorian Government for the period 1996-2030 of buying wood at a 1996 fixed price on the logs. This includes mountain ash timber, deemed by scientists to be of high conservation value.[8] In August 2011 Australian Paper withdrew from Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) certification, in order to be able to use wood from old-growth forest logging by VicForests, but remained under the certification of the Australian Forestry Standard. Their previous auditor SmartWood was suspended in September 2011 as result of an FSC internal audit.[9] Later the company announced that its FSC certification has been retained for all products except Reflex paper.[10] As of 2013, the Reflex 100% recycled paper is FSC certified.[11]"

    Cheap, cheap ! But If you touch either, you risk an ugly stain on your subconcious.
    Better wait til they change it's name. May Gaia strike them...:emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_deciduous_tree:
     
    #215 bawbawbel, Jul 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  15. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    The tiny remnant rainforest area in the fern gullies at Icy Creek has ALWAYS been sacred, but not any more.
    I first thought that the protester up a tree and chained to equipment was a bit excessive, but not anymore.
    VicForests seem to be concerned that people might become a little irate if they are exposed to the Icy Creek massacre.
    The first obstacle on the road in is a hole beside an excavator set up to swallow a standard Landcruiser if it tries to inch past.
    P1060689.JPG
    The new stumps across the devastation look like ordinary rotation harvesting until you see that they are 120 years old.
    P1060691.JPG
    But not to worry, "habitat" trees have been left for the lyrebirds to roost in.
    P1060693.JPG
    I might be fitting if mourners left a little permanent marker cross on the first stump to indicate that they will tell 10 people and ask each of them to tell 10 people.
     

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  16. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hey BBB, where in Icy Creek is this happening?
     
  17. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Turnoff at Icy Creek creek itself (few Km up the BawBaw road from the town, of course).
    No logging signs at the highway. Cunning !
    The locked gate and signs are at a red herring road further up the highway.
     
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  18. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Terrible and graphic stuff Bbb.

    This contract has to be one of the most moronic bits of paper ever signed. Jeff's watch of course!

    The logging contractors must realise they're running out of the good stuff (you'd think?) but who'd criticise the money till its gone??

    Now if there was only someone with intelligence and the balls in the Vic or Fed Govts. who cared enough to stop or slow this madness?