South Face Road - trucks and trees and demonstrations.

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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Hemp can be used as a crop for fibre . It grows quickly, it is an annual crop and can be used to make robust sturdy panels akin to chipboard or ply wood , sails/rope/cloth, cooking oil, bird seed/feed for animals, medicine for glaucoma and nausea, and much more. It uses little water compared with rice and cotton and originates from often arid climates.
 
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bawbawbel

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There is some good arguments in this thread but they come across as disjointed and emotive. I'd be looking at:
1. What is the outcome you are looking for?
2. If it is a complete abandonment of native logging then what are the impacts / costs, sure there are jobs but what about the impact at a product level. More clearing in Indonesia or other less developed economies, other product substitutes that are less net environmentally friendly. And remember we mass cleared our forests at a point in time for multiple purposes, build things, create farmland etc.
3. If it is a more sustainable socially acceptable model what does that look like? For instance nsw seems to have less social disquiet.

I know one thing, the main mill in question produces structural lumber in addition to more niche products (floorboards, furniture etc). Maybe the former could go ;) just a tip and this may go a long way to adjusting the model.
* many years ago I worked for a former owner of the said mill.
Take it easy ;)


Hooray for social disquiet ! So we need to visit NSW for forest style peace and quiet.
This new park proposal is another red herring to deflect the plan for a logical amalgamation of the existing national park fragmentation.
Sacrifice our forests to save Indonesian forests ? Good luck with that one.
You probably have the figures- What is the present ratio of pulp to structural timber production in our native forests ?
Am I wrong in suggesting 10 to 1 ?
 

Belly

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I could craft out a well considered response but I suspect it would fall on deaf ear's and I also suspect this is a key reason as to why the Vic native forest sector is significantly broken! I had a bit of capacity this morning to contribute but I have my own life priorities and right now they are a long way from the Vic native forest scene..... As I said, take it easy ;)
 
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bawbawbel

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Taking it easy not so easy as we witness the forest finale now taking place.
About now was the promised transfer to all plantation timber, don't forget.
If your priorities include recording Philip Adams you will tonight hear an interview with an expert on the demise of civilizations.
"The usual return to hunter/gathering was caused by extended drought."

Science will save us ? Not if we get our own Pol Pot.
Gaia better have something up her sleeve...
 

snowgum

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I could craft out a well considered response but I suspect it would fall on deaf ear's and I also suspect this is a key reason as to why the Vic native forest sector is significantly broken! I had a bit of capacity this morning to contribute but I have my own life priorities and right now they are a long way from the Vic native forest scene..... As I said, take it easy ;)

Evening Belly: I know hardline greenies probably don't like listen the Forest sector but the reverse is very true - or at least in many cases.

There seems to be an argument - at least on the outside - that 'because we've always logged we should just keep on logging ad infinitum'.

Forgetting possums and cute furry critters a second (2 sides will never agree on this!), even the most optimistic logger company or worker will realise that at the rate we are travelling, there'll be very few old growth (1-300 year, 80-110m, f'ng wide!) loggable' forest left.

Yea, there'll be Snowgum and mixed wattle, dry mallee and coastal scrub, and whatever, & there'll no doubt be lots of recovering burnt and former logged forest, but not the old stuff - yes the stuff that keeps fauna alive and thriving and they type most people like visiting, photographing, driving, walking, biking, riding through, camping in etc...

The few somewhat intact older growth that's not burnt to the burgeezez will be surrounding dams with access points fenced off. Important Not much fun for anyone!

And there'll be very little that doesn't have a labyrinth of former logging roads and tracks, erosion gullies, blackberries (cows seem to leave these!). Who wants to visit this sort of forest?

So what us 'Greener' types are trying to achieve is prevent the inevitable while it's still possible.

And jobs can be turned around gradually into other areas - much like 10-20 thousand vehicle manufacturing and component supplier jobs across the SE.

Like jobs transferring from coal pits to solar panels and wind farms, tourism and agriculture.

It needs a proactive State and preferably , Fed Gov. But the latter have shown no interest in saving forests since Bob lost to Keating - so I hold little hope there.

This transformation can't be that hard -particularly with strong engagement btn VicGov and the forest sector, and good incentives for transition. Plus obviously better planning of managed /plantation forest for structural timber and paper.

This sort of transition has happened in many sectors, all over the world and over centuries. It can happen here with willing participants.

Sorry my 5 bob - that's enough for now.
SG
 

Belly

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Evening Belly: I know hardline greenies probably don't like listen the Forest sector but the reverse is very true - or at least in many cases.

There seems to be an argument - at least on the outside - that 'because we've always logged we should just keep on logging ad infinitum'.

Forgetting possums and cute furry critters a second (2 sides will never agree on this!), even the most optimistic logger company or worker will realise that at the rate we are travelling, there'll be very few old growth (1-300 year, 80-110m, f'ng wide!) loggable' forest left.

Yea, there'll be Snowgum and mixed wattle, dry mallee and coastal scrub, and whatever, & there'll no doubt be lots of recovering burnt and former logged forest, but not the old stuff - yes the stuff that keeps fauna alive and thriving and they type most people like visiting, photographing, driving, walking, biking, riding through, camping in etc...

The few somewhat intact older growth that's not burnt to the burgeezez will be surrounding dams with access points fenced off. Important Not much fun for anyone!

And there'll be very little that doesn't have a labyrinth of former logging roads and tracks, erosion gullies, blackberries (cows seem to leave these!). Who wants to visit this sort of forest?

So what us 'Greener' types are trying to achieve is prevent the inevitable while it's still possible.

And jobs can be turned around gradually into other areas - much like 10-20 thousand vehicle manufacturing and component supplier jobs across the SE.

Like jobs transferring from coal pits to solar panels and wind farms, tourism and agriculture.

It needs a proactive State and preferably , Fed Gov. But the latter have shown no interest in saving forests since Bob lost to Keating - so I hold little hope there.

This transformation can't be that hard -particularly with strong engagement btn VicGov and the forest sector, and good incentives for transition. Plus obviously better planning of managed /plantation forest for structural timber and paper.

This sort of transition has happened in many sectors, all over the world and over centuries. It can happen here with willing participants.

Sorry my 5 bob - that's enough for now.
SG
Congratulations on articulating a realistic argument and plan. I don't disagree with anything you wrote. And whilst I may come across as an industry sympathiser I did write that many good arguments are made in this thread, they just aren't very organised nor realistic. And FWIW I left the industry because I made too many noises that the (financial) sustainability of the then popular plantation investment model was not viable, an analysis that proved to be true. My deeper expertise is (was) on the plantation grow side but I know enough about the native scene to know it's broken (as posted). But my view is the industry can exist but as you suggest it's needs work.
 
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snowgum

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Congratulations on articulating a realistic argument and plan. I don't disagree with anything you wrote. And whilst I may come across as an industry sympathiser I did write that many good arguments are made in this thread, they just aren't very organised nor realistic. And FWIW I left the industry because I made too many noises that the (financial) sustainability of the then popular plantation investment model was not viable, an analysis that proved to be true. My deeper expertise is (was) on the plantation grow side but I know enough about the native scene to know it's broken (as posted). But my view is the industry can exist but as you suggest it's needs work.


Cheers Belly, fascinating to be an insider! And great to have your insights here.

I suspect plantation timber will look very expensive while the State subsidises (almost gives away?) native forest. Now I don't know what a 'decent' price is (perhaps look at other western countries) but it appears VicForests barely turns a small profit - despite selling the rights to what? hundreds/thousand tonnes timber? So it's return to State isn't great on a $ per job basis. - in my opinion.

Then there's a whole cottage industry of road building and maintenance, mapping, surveying, auditing, flora and faunal inspections, rehab & resewing/fire management that in the main, wouldn't be incurred if logging didn't happen.

I wonder. Does VicForest charge out all these expenses? Or is it absorbed by the state? Could be putting this opportunity cost to better use? All important questions with the RFAs up for renewal.

But one will rarely here these matters (costs) reported publically. And it's 'our' land and our timber.

The public deserves to have a say in the use (loss) of it valuable resources - well in my (old fashioned leftie!) book. Now if the industry involved sand-mining on Brighton or Manly beach, you can bet it would never be allowed. Whatever the money. But deep in the hills out of sight of 98% people, forestry is a total different set of values in play.
.......

Anyway,
It's getting late - Time to sign out for the night.
SG
 
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Ubiquitous Steve

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Robust discussion Team Bears are following...
Not an easy path this forest management !
Actions with consequences.
Silvicultural issues?
DBHOB always an issue for those small bears!
10A48026-B5D2-44B4-B953-AC0DA8BBB085.png
 
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Belly

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Cheers Belly, fascinating to be an insider! And great to have your insights here.

I suspect plantation timber will look very expensive while the State subsidises (almost gives away?) native forest. Now I don't know what a 'decent' price is (perhaps look at other western countries) but it appears VicForests barely turns a small profit - despite selling the rights to what? hundreds/thousand tonnes timber? So it's return to State isn't great on a $ per job basis. - in my opinion.

Then there's a whole cottage industry of road building and maintenance, mapping, surveying, auditing, flora and faunal inspections, rehab & resewing/fire management that in the main, wouldn't be incurred if logging didn't happen.

I wonder. Does VicForest charge out all these expenses? Or is it absorbed by the state? Could be putting this opportunity cost to better use? All important questions with the RFAs up for renewal.

But one will rarely here these matters (costs) reported publically. And it's 'our' land and our timber.

The public deserves to have a say in the use (loss) of it valuable resources - well in my (old fashioned leftie!) book. Now if the industry involved sand-mining on Brighton or Manly beach, you can bet it would never be allowed. Whatever the money. But deep in the hills out of sight of 98% people, forestry is a total different set of values in play.
.......

Anyway,
It's getting late - Time to sign out for the night.
SG
All those expenses you mentioned are real. 'Charged out' or 'absorbed', well the devil would be in the detail (internal bucket, revenues, you could argue if the state govt received grants or the like for checking on the wombats and the local forester performed then that is a revenue augmenting the core log revenue). I suspect the private sector had more sophisticated cost management (& planning) practices but can't comment with authority on VicForests.
BBB wanted stats on log production (timber happens at the mill), this used to be publicly available but the log classifications (sawlog, pulplog, firewood, etc) are arbituary benchmarks and ultimately a 'nice' log could go to a niche mill and direct to furniture and then balance to pulp, gardens, biofuel etc. I don't know enough about native structural lumber but personally I'm not convinced it's needed outside of very discrete applications.
 
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bawbawbel

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I'm out of here, you started this thread, you clearly see it as your role to belittle anything that is posted that you don't agree with.
"The entire mountain ash forest was listed as critically endangered on International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) Red List of Ecosystems in 2015."
Not the possums, the FOREST itself.
Sorry, nothing personal, but this is much bigger than both of us.
A thousand tons of ash logs going to pulp PER DAY.
Leaving nothing for the little mill, the easiest target.
So here is my solution:

*
Greenvale gets it's plan to burn Melbourne's plastic fast tracked, but only with the present wood supply contract changed !
*

No pissweak politicians in the negotiations.
Much as I hate to admit it, we would need a horse trader to make the deal.
Someone like Dumper from the You Ess of Aye, no doubt.

PS. stuff you didn't know. I wonder how you missed it ?
Melbourne. Today>
"
  • Extinction Rebellion Victoria will stage a “Die In” to protest the continued logging in our native forests, rejecting the memorandum of understanding between state and Commonwealth, which agreed exemptions from environmental laws will continue.
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
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"Extinction Rebellion Victoria will stage a “Die In” to protest the continued logging in our native forests, rejecting the memorandum of understanding between state and Commonwealth, which agreed exemptions from environmental laws will continue.
Stirring stuff:
Nobody arrested, nobody spoken to rudely.
Their authorized protest let them block a road with a banner for ONE traffic light cycle.
Success !
Two motorists read the banner.
Meanwhile, an April extension of RFA allows clear felling in one thousand coupes over 3 years.
And "VicForests argued that the case for injunctions must fail because it has recently started trialing less damaging logging methods."
Maybe "clear felling" will then be called "unrestricted removal of vegetation". Fixed!

edit:
"" Australian Paper has a contract with the Victorian Government for the period 1996-2030 of buying wood at a 1996 fixed price on the logs. This includes mountain ash timber, deemed by scientists to be of high conservation value.[8] In August 2011 Australian Paper withdrew from Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) certification, in order to be able to use wood from old-growth forest logging by VicForests, but remained under the certification of the Australian Forestry Standard. Their previous auditor SmartWood was suspended in September 2011 as result of an FSC internal audit.[9] Later the company announced that its FSC certification has been retained for all products except Reflex paper.[10] As of 2013, the Reflex 100% recycled paper is FSC certified.[11]"

Cheap, cheap ! But If you touch either, you risk an ugly stain on your subconcious.
Better wait til they change it's name. May Gaia strike them...:emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_cloud_lightning::emoji_deciduous_tree:
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
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The tiny remnant rainforest area in the fern gullies at Icy Creek has ALWAYS been sacred, but not any more.
I first thought that the protester up a tree and chained to equipment was a bit excessive, but not anymore.
VicForests seem to be concerned that people might become a little irate if they are exposed to the Icy Creek massacre.
The first obstacle on the road in is a hole beside an excavator set up to swallow a standard Landcruiser if it tries to inch past.
P1060689.JPG
The new stumps across the devastation look like ordinary rotation harvesting until you see that they are 120 years old.
P1060691.JPG
But not to worry, "habitat" trees have been left for the lyrebirds to roost in.
P1060693.JPG
I might be fitting if mourners left a little permanent marker cross on the first stump to indicate that they will tell 10 people and ask each of them to tell 10 people.
 

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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
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Hey BBB, where in Icy Creek is this happening?
Turnoff at Icy Creek creek itself (few Km up the BawBaw road from the town, of course).
No logging signs at the highway. Cunning !
The locked gate and signs are at a red herring road further up the highway.
 
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snowgum

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Terrible and graphic stuff Bbb.

This contract has to be one of the most moronic bits of paper ever signed. Jeff's watch of course!

The logging contractors must realise they're running out of the good stuff (you'd think?) but who'd criticise the money till its gone??

Now if there was only someone with intelligence and the balls in the Vic or Fed Govts. who cared enough to stop or slow this madness?
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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If the entire perimeter of the Baw Baw N.P. is eventually all logged then what hope is there is of keeping the climate consistently cool enough to allow the BB ski resort to have snow in winter?. The old growth forests of Gippsland are nearly all gone. Further clear fell logging is madness on stilts.
 
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chriscross

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Thanks for keeping us all informed, bbb and others. Vic gov't must reconsider logging operations in the light of recent events. But I fear other factors remain in play, eg the "F" in CFMEU.
Last year I reported on the dozens of displaced lyre birds near disastrous logging operation close to Ballantine Saddle. But to see this vandalism continue down the road, to prop up a few dinosaur jobs in a dying industry is unbelievable.
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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Terrible and graphic stuff Bbb.

This contract has to be one of the most moronic bits of paper ever signed. Jeff's watch of course!

The logging contractors must realise they're running out of the good stuff (you'd think?) but who'd criticise the money till its gone??

Now if there was only someone with intelligence and the balls in the Vic or Fed Govts. who cared enough to stop or slow this madness?
Mr. Andrews, the Premier of VIC. does not give a fig about nature. Time and time again his actions have proven that. His majority in the state parliament of Vic. is such that he could be biting the heads off warm blooded creatures such as koalas at question time in the lower house and there would be few ramifications.
 

Pink

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Thanks for keeping us all informed, bbb and others. Vic gov't must reconsider logging operations in the light of recent events. But I fear other factors remain in play, eg the "F" in CFMEU.
Last year I reported on the dozens of displaced lyre birds near disastrous logging operation close to Ballantine Saddle. But to see this vandalism continue down the road, to prop up a few dinosaur jobs in a dying industry is unbelievable.
There used to be a movement to get the F out of the CFMEU. What happened to that?
 

bawbawbel

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I am going walking up the AAWT at Mt. Erica on Wed. .I will look at my map and see if I can visit this site of logging too.
This is a new situation. Koalas move into private bluegum plantation. Owners clearfell everything and accept a small fine for blue murder and starvation of the lot. Greed is not good.
 

snowgum

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Better put more koalas in overseas zoos as we seem incapable of looking after the poor creatures!

No we can’t. Very distressing - this doesn’t exactly help our former clean green image to oversees visitors.

One just hopes this massacre is the exception rather than the rule these days as the ‘professional’ loggers seemed to be mindful of the need to protect koalas.



I hope the Govt. totally throw the book at the cowboys that did this and the landowner that commissioned the work. A Limp slap on wrist with a wet lettuce leaf won’t scare anyone! :mad:
 

Tanuki

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If the entire perimeter of the Baw Baw N.P. is eventually all logged then what hope is there is of keeping the climate consistently cool enough to allow the BB ski resort to have snow in winter?. The old growth forests of Gippsland are nearly all gone. Further clear fell logging is madness on stilts.
It's an intentional policy to 'ring bark' the National Park to prevent any potential expansion of it.
 

chriscross

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Thought you were heading up Mt Erica. One of the best mountain hikes within 3 hrs of Melb IMO. Enjoy. Eyes out for serpents. Lovely stream comes from the little tarn at the back of the old hut campsite, crosses the trail, so no need to carry much water. Take Martin guitar.
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
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AAP might be gone, but our Federal Government sometimes shines:
They ruled in May that VicForests had illegally ignored environmental laws in 26 coupes.
So Bunnings have banned local mountain ash. (Again ? Like last year. ).
There will be a "transition period", of course.
To help with continuing the 3000 hectare/year unsustainable take, VicForests want to clear 59 coupes of "dead" mountain ash.
Public submissions are now closed.
 
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bawbawbel

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ecka4X4 once said:
"Hi peeps. I'm a lifelong LV resident, Baw Baw was where I grew up skiing st= arting back in the 70s on the old rope tow. I've been a member of Friends o= f Baw Baw NP in the past & have sadly seen the rape of the recovering ash f= orests of the South face area after the South Face (Logging) Road was put i= n. This road was put in without proper soil testing & engineering done & du= ring it's construction caused several silt flows to flow into the Tyers Riv= er & down into Moondarra dam. There was a belated hydrological study done o= n the Moondarra catchment by Prof. John Ealey who showed that since it take= s up to 150 years for water yield to return to normal after a Mountain Ash = forest is burnt or removed, this whole upper catchment was a long way from = recovery since the 1939 Black Friday fires. Up to 80% of flows into Moondar= ra dam come from this upper catchment. A lot of this timber is taken for chipping to Maryvale paper mill. This mil= l is also one of the biggest users of Moondarra water. If I can find the re= port I shall upload it for anyone interested. Timber mill owners & the pape= r plant don't seem to care about the long term as long as they can get chea= p timber to make huge profits from. Not only have we lost these somewhat yo= ung ash forests, we've lost the biodiversity & more valuable micro climate = that gave us decent winter snows & stream flows."
I treasure single posts when they are from the heart. :)
 

Oldie

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Not related to previous posts on this thread but probably more related to this than Trip Reports etc. I wonder if the recent extensive damage to the tourist road and projected extended repair timeframe, might prompt the authorities to seriously consider sealing South Face Road as a viable alternative route to BB.
 
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Tom from Melbourne

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Not related to previous posts on this thread but probably more related to this than Trip Reports etc. I wonder if the recent extensive damage to the tourist road and projected extended repair timeframe, might prompt the authorities to seriously consider sealing South Face Road as a viable alternative route to BB.
I always prefer SFR any time!

Tourist road is the worst road for car sickness I've ever been on - first time with son we didn't even make it to Tanjil Bren before the first bout.
 
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