Spider chains are not permitted at Hotham

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FlatLander

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stansi said:
MAC said:
As a result of Mt Hotham's decision to ban spider chains, I am now finding it very difficult to get chains to fit on the front wheels.

As I can't fit diamond chains to the front wheels (due to clearance problems), what about if I were to fit the diamond chains to the back wheels. (the car is a Volvo XC60 AWD) as I don't have the same clearance problems on the rear wheels.

I know chains are supposed to go on the front wheels (but if they don't fit)

Still looking for a solution.

I reckon you've found the the solution.

Exactly.

Mac check in your owners manual, my guess would be that it states that chains can not be fitted to the front wheels. As long as is doesn't state that they can't also be fitted to the rear then you are sweet. There is no law about fitting to front wheels on 4wd. (or none that I know of).

Always check the manual as some state front only, some rear only and some you must fit to all 4 wheels!!!
 
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Azz

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Our last two cars, Landcruiser and Amarok, chains won't fit on front wheels, but no problems with rears.
In theory, it is better to have the chains on the front wheels on a 4x4 / AWD.
As long as you have 4x4 selected*

*Also depending on how your AWD system works. Both of our vehicles had lockable centre diffs.
 
Volvo uses the Haldex system for their AWD vehicles including XC60. As Volvo correctly states snow chains should only ever be fitted to the front wheels, fitting chains to the rear is like fitting chains to a trailer.
"Haldex coupling is an electronically controlled permanent 4x4 system with a Haldex differential calculating how much drive should be directed to the rear wheels. The Haldex system automatically distributes power between the front and rear wheels depending on slippage, but normally sends 95% of the power to the front wheels. Haldex coupling called "Instant Traction" in documentation by Volvo."

"The car is a Volvo XC60 AWD, difficult to get chains to fit on the front wheels, Still looking for a solution."

We have supplied diamond pattern snow chain for XC60, please let me know your tyre size for a solution.
 

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Azz said:
Our last two cars, Landcruiser and Amarok, chains won't fit on front wheels, but no problems with rears.
In theory, it is better to have the chains on the front wheels on a 4x4 / AWD.
As long as you have 4x4 selected*

*Also depending on how your AWD system works. Both of our vehicles had lockable centre diffs.

The Discovery takes chains on the rear too. No issues.
 
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FlatLander

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snowtyres said:
Volvo uses the Haldex system for their AWD vehicles including XC60. As Volvo correctly states snow chains should only ever be fitted to the front wheels, fitting chains to the rear is like fitting chains to a trailer.
"Haldex coupling is an electronically controlled permanent 4x4 system with a Haldex differential calculating how much drive should be directed to the rear wheels. The Haldex system automatically distributes power between the front and rear wheels depending on slippage, but normally sends 95% of the power to the front wheels. Haldex coupling called "Instant Traction" in documentation by Volvo."

"The car is a Volvo XC60 AWD, difficult to get chains to fit on the front wheels, Still looking for a solution."

We have supplied diamond pattern snow chain for XC60, please let me know your tyre size for a solution.

ST does Volvo say you can not fit to rear wheels? Will it break something on the Volvo?
 
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FlatLander

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Claude Cat said:
Azz said:
Our last two cars, Landcruiser and Amarok, chains won't fit on front wheels, but no problems with rears.
In theory, it is better to have the chains on the front wheels on a 4x4 / AWD.
As long as you have 4x4 selected*

*Also depending on how your AWD system works. Both of our vehicles had lockable centre diffs.

The Discovery takes chains on the rear too. No issues.

Also I think on later model Prado's chains on rear only.
 
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Astro66

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FlatLander said:
snowtyres said:
Volvo uses the Haldex system for their AWD vehicles including XC60. As Volvo correctly states snow chains should only ever be fitted to the front wheels, fitting chains to the rear is like fitting chains to a trailer.
"Haldex coupling is an electronically controlled permanent 4x4 system with a Haldex differential calculating how much drive should be directed to the rear wheels. The Haldex system automatically distributes power between the front and rear wheels depending on slippage, but normally sends 95% of the power to the front wheels. Haldex coupling called "Instant Traction" in documentation by Volvo."

"The car is a Volvo XC60 AWD, difficult to get chains to fit on the front wheels, Still looking for a solution."

We have supplied diamond pattern snow chain for XC60, please let me know your tyre size for a solution.

ST does Volvo say you can not fit to rear wheels? Will it break something on the Volvo?
Computer will work it out, as fronts slip, it will apply more torque to rear wheels. No different to a rear wheel drive.

But definitely ask Volvo if there is any risk to transmission. ST will want to sell chains and tyres.

Some video. You can see front tyres break traction, then rears engaging. Chains on rear wheels would just create the same reaction, but more often.

 
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FlatLander

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AstroSki66 said:
FlatLander said:
snowtyres said:
Volvo uses the Haldex system for their AWD vehicles including XC60. As Volvo correctly states snow chains should only ever be fitted to the front wheels, fitting chains to the rear is like fitting chains to a trailer.
"Haldex coupling is an electronically controlled permanent 4x4 system with a Haldex differential calculating how much drive should be directed to the rear wheels. The Haldex system automatically distributes power between the front and rear wheels depending on slippage, but normally sends 95% of the power to the front wheels. Haldex coupling called "Instant Traction" in documentation by Volvo."

"The car is a Volvo XC60 AWD, difficult to get chains to fit on the front wheels, Still looking for a solution."

We have supplied diamond pattern snow chain for XC60, please let me know your tyre size for a solution.

ST does Volvo say you can not fit to rear wheels? Will it break something on the Volvo?
Computer will work it out, as fronts slip, it will apply more torque to rear wheels. No different to a rear wheel drive.

But definitely ask Volvo if there is any risk to transmission. ST will want to sell chains and tyres.

My point exactly!
 
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Please check the XC60 tyre size again Mac, should be 235/65R17

There is no clearance issue with the correct chain. Just supplied a set of diamond pattern chains for a Hotham bound XC 60 with 235/65R17 to replace a set of Volvo (Rud) Centrax that were supplied by the Volvo dealer when the vehicle was purchased.

Volvo information is to fit chains to front wheels only.

http://accessories.volvocars.com/Accesso...ment/VCC-463823
 
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Astro66

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It's amazing how SnowTyres selectively chooses to ignore only certain Volvo instuctions. But follow others to letter of the law.

Note!
Only use Volvo single sided snow chains on the XC60. The single sided snow chains have been especially produced for the XC60 to prevent damaging the chassis components and wheel housings. Snow chains are not recommended for use with 20" wheels, as this risks damaging the car.

Almost like he bases his decision on what will best sell his products. Not what is best for customer.

Volvo recommend spider chains !!! They even have a photo of the chains they approve.
a5.jpg


I would speak to the Volvo mechanics about fitting chains to rear of car. Explain you would love to fit the recommended chains to the front. But Hotham in their wisdom, disagree with many European car Manufacturers. Because Hotham knows what works best on European cars, not the manufacturers.
rolleyes.gif
 
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FlatLander

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AstroSki66 said:
It's amazing how SnowTyres selectively chooses to ignore only certain Volvo instuctions. But follow others to letter of the law.

I would speak to the Volvo mechanics about fitting chains to rear of car. Explain you would love to fit the recommended chains to the front. But Hotham in their wisdom, disagree with many European car Manufacturers. Because Hotham knows what works best on European cars, not the manufacturers.
rolleyes.gif

Astro I agree with your comments re ST, and Mac should consult with the Volvo people.

Although I think you will find that Hotham have made a decision, in their wisdom, which works for the Hotham road. This would not be a decision on trying to alienate all euro car drivers, it would be what works best on that road. I am sure this also affects many later model vehicles from all countries.

And Prados(later models) can only fit chains to rear wheels, which is the same for Landrover discos. So ST does that turn these vehicles into trailers...(and no puns about the Landrovers please
smirk.gif
)
 
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nicole2292

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Just to keep everyone updated on how the request for refunds is progressing RMB told me to take this up with the Ski Company. The Ski Company said no refunds were available but to put the request in writing. I did so early last week.

There was no response to my email from the Ski Company so I followed up today and got the response that they had forwarded my request onto the RMB and were waiting on a response...

Anyone feel like a dog chasing its tail???
wink.gif


No one up there wants to take responsibility for making a decision on the refunds.

In the mean time I'm still collecting data via my survey. If anyone is new to this thread and is affected please complete my survey here: http://www.snowchainsurvey.info/

Thanks,
Nicole
 
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teckel

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I spoke with someone today - one of the most, if not the most knowledgeable people in the country in regards to chains. He confirmed what I thought but wasn't 100% sure on, (amongst other things) that the K-Summit chain is accepted everywhere in the world with only one exception - that exception being Mt Hotham. That either means that the RMB has made a wrong decision, or that Hotham has the worst access road in the world!
 

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teckel said:
That either means that the RMB has made a wrong decision, or that Hotham has the worst access road in the world!

I guess you don't want to promote either of these options
wink.gif
 
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Karicta

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AstroSki66 said:
It's amazing how SnowTyres selectively chooses to ignore only certain Volvo instuctions. But follow others to letter of the law.

Note!
Only use Volvo single sided snow chains on the XC60. The single sided snow chains have been especially produced for the XC60 to prevent damaging the chassis components and wheel housings. Snow chains are not recommended for use with 20" wheels, as this risks damaging the car.

Almost like he bases his decision on what will best sell his products. Not what is best for customer.

Volvo recommend spider chains !!! They even have a photo of the chains they approve.
a5.jpg


I would speak to the Volvo mechanics about fitting chains to rear of car. Explain you would love to fit the recommended chains to the front. But Hotham in their wisdom, disagree with many European car Manufacturers. Because Hotham knows what works best on European cars, not the manufacturers.
rolleyes.gif

In fairness to ST, he stocks those exact chains and given they are probably more expensive than diamond chains, may have a bigger margin on them

Whilst he has a commercial interest, he may just be being helpful!
 
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teckel

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I would never advise fitting chains to the rear wheels of cars other than rear wheel drive vehicles, but I just came across this for Mercedes C class vehicles:
mount snow chains only in pairs and only to the rear wheels. Observe the manufacturer's installation instructions.

If snow chains are mounted on the front wheels, the snow chains could grind against the bodywork or components of the chassis. This could result in damage to the vehicle or the tires.
http://www.csedan.com/snow_chains-1068.html
Maybe that's a solution for other cars?
 
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Claude Cat

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Why is it interesting?
3 series are rear wheel drive (or AWD for some)

You always fit chains to the drive wheels.
Merc C class is also rear wheel drive.
 

teckel

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Claude Cat said:
Why is it interesting?
3 series are rear wheel drive (or AWD for some)

You always fit chains to the drive wheels.
Merc C class is also rear wheel drive.
OK. I figured they were front wheel drive. That's why I said I'd only recommend that chains were fitted to the drive wheels.
 
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Claude Cat

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1 series FWD (IIRC), but the major selling point of the 3 series is RWD - they drive so much better! IMO

I figure they tell people not to fit to the front wheels as it would be stupid. But we've all see it before - chains fitted to the non drive wheels!!
 

Claude Cat

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Karicta said:
I'm pretty sure 1 series are RWD

It's part of their appeal

Yep you're right. So BMW don't make any front wheel drive cars that I can think of.
 
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Astro66

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C Class does come in AWD. From wiki.

Versions of the car are available with a choice of rear- and all-wheel drive (the AWD system is the fourth-generation 4MATIC system, not available in right-hand drive format), along with a variety of four and six-cylinder engines (and a 6.2-litre V8 in the C 63 AMG). 4MATIC denotes all wheel drive models.
 
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Snow chains are designed to increase the tractability of a vehicle driving in very deep snow or when the gradient on the road is beyond the grip of the tyres.
If you understand this simple principle you will understand why snow chains, when used in any country, can not to change a vehicle fitted with high performance summer tyres into a safe winter performer, when vehicle driving in ice and snow conditions, especially when driving down hill.

Rear wheel drive
Snow chains will increase traction for take off and driving when fitted to summer tyres on a rear drive vehicle but can never assist with steering or lateral stability. Under braking the front wheels will always lock up easily, and the vehicle will then go into ABS mode, increasing the stopping distance. Additionally the vehicle will not 'turn in', it will understeer, because there is insufficient grip from the front tyres. The problem is always worse when driving down hill and when the tyres are 'cold' from the low ambient temperatures when parked overnight, or longer at an alpine resort.

Front wheel drive
Snow chains will increase traction for take off and driving when fitted to summer tyres on a front wheel drive vehicle but can not assist with lateral stability at the rear. Under braking the rear wheels will always tend to lock up, and then go into ABS mode, creating dangerous oversteer. The problem is always worse when driving down hill and when the tyres are 'cold' from the low ambient temperatures when parked overnight, or longer at an alpine resort.

All wheel drive & four wheel drive.
The same problems exist when snow chains are fitted to AWD/4WD vehicles. Snow chains are fitted to either the front or rear wheels depending on the transmission system, and clearance for snow chains, and the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer.
The problems are compounded because of the size and weight of the vehicle.
As with FWD and RWD vehicles the problem is always worse when driving down hill and when the tyres are 'cold' from the low ambient temperatures when parked overnight, or longer at an alpine resort.
 

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snowtyres said:
Snow chains are designed to increase the tractability of a vehicle driving in very deep snow or when the gradient on the road is beyond the grip of the tyres.
If you understand this simple principle you will understand why snow chains, when used in any country, can not to change a vehicle fitted with high performance summer tyres into a safe winter performer, when vehicle driving in ice and snow conditions, especially when driving down hill.

Rear wheel drive
Snow chains will increase traction for take off and driving when fitted to summer tyres on a rear drive vehicle but can never assist with steering or lateral stability. Under braking the front wheels will always lock up easily, and the vehicle will then go into ABS mode, increasing the stopping distance. Additionally the vehicle will not 'turn in', it will understeer, because there is insufficient grip from the front tyres. The problem is always worse when driving down hill and when the tyres are 'cold' from the low ambient temperatures when parked overnight, or longer at an alpine resort.

Front wheel drive
Snow chains will increase traction for take off and driving when fitted to summer tyres on a front wheel drive vehicle but can not assist with lateral stability at the rear. Under braking the rear wheels will always tend to lock up, and then go into ABS mode, creating dangerous oversteer. The problem is always worse when driving down hill and when the tyres are 'cold' from the low ambient temperatures when parked overnight, or longer at an alpine resort.

All wheel drive & four wheel drive.
The same problems exist when snow chains are fitted to AWD/4WD vehicles. Snow chains are fitted to either the front or rear wheels depending on the transmission system, and clearance for snow chains, and the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer.
The problems are compounded because of the size and weight of the vehicle.
As with FWD and RWD vehicles the problem is always worse when driving down hill and when the tyres are 'cold' from the low ambient temperatures when parked overnight, or longer at an alpine resort.

Snowtyres apart from extensive knowledge of chains and tyres from behind the desk, what experiences have you encountered on snow covered roads that can also help us all.
 
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Hully

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My little 2cents as a frequent snow driver (less frequently on H'ville-Hotham). Drive to the conditions, drive to your ability, be courteous, don't rely totally on tyres, chains or vehicle control systems. IMHO a sensible driver on reasonable tread summer tyres will be safer and stay on the road longer than someone in a performance vehicle (of any drive configuration FW,AW, 4W) regardless of their tyres or chains trying to make a sport out of driving in the snow and relying on their car and its technology/components to keep them on the road.

Slow down, relax, pull over for faster drivers, obey signage (ie fit chains when the signs say...not when you think appropriate) and enjoy the drive and skiing.
 

teckel

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ST - master of cutting and pasting!

ST, You seem to delight in pasting slabs of stuff irrelevant to the point in question. Maybe you could cut and paste something relevant to my question pages and pages back about the poor braking performance of winter tyres when the temperature is over 10 degrees. Surely this is an important thing for all owners of winter tyres to note in this country - that braking around the burbs during the week will be compromised.
 

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I have an XC90. Impossible to get diamond chains on front. Only just on the back, and even then they clatter around and destroy inner wheel casings. For a 'Sweedish' (Chinese!) car, I have found Ovlovs generally pretty disappointing in the snow. I had to call RACV so many times last year, the biggest issue being freezing deisel including one time with 100% Myrtleford alpine diesel. Another night we couldnt get up CRB hill after a light fall of snow. If spider chains fitted better I'd use them. I don't see how they're going to police such a ridiculous declaration. In 40 years, nobody has ever stopped to check what type of chains I've fitted. And really, if American or Euro folks were reading this thread they'd think we were all half bonkers. They'd be right. In 15 winters in the French Alps with my frog-in-laws old 2WD Passat I have never fitted chains once. Ozzies get so worked up/hysterical these days about the road up Hotham. Its a good road on which it sometimes snows. Prudence is warranted. Appropriate chains for your vehicle (with which you are familiar) sometimes need to be fitted. That's all.
 
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Astro66

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This is the issue I have. Ask ST for advice. He comes back saying we are all non compliant, unless we fit snow tyres.



 

Boodwah

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Ha! It might be worth your while though if you were the maker or distributor of any particular brand of chains that had randomly and suddenly found itself on the wrong side of the bizarre decision making process of the Hotham management bananas. I'm thinking that the ombudsman would tell them to pull their heads in.
 

mr

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yeah i only use additives now boodwah, i never trust alpine diesel anymore.....after a $700 extraction from refridgerator gap with waxed up mansfield alpine diesel in a hilux

the real issue i see with chains is there is no culture of everyday snow driving like the euros or the americans.....and all the troubles i see are people who havent done it before....we cant shit on em for lack of experience

at least now 4wds need to fit chains, over the years its been the range rovers and subarus and the like ive seen spinning 4 wheels as they slide backwards down CRB hill, or even the little on near Wire plain

i might have missed the other 63 pages
 

Claude Cat

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Weird that you had issues with Kero and additives.
Did you make sure it was well mixed in? Eg put it in the tank before filling?
I've never had an issue with waxing with Kero, alpine diesel, even with temps below -10C.
 

FlatLander

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Boodwah said:
Which additive do you use? That Torque Icebreaker failed me last year, as did good old kero... Getting RACV up in October was a long wait.

I use 'Lucas' and have never had an issue. Although I do add about double recommended dose on top of alpine diesel.
 
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FlatLander

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Hully said:
My little 2cents as a frequent snow driver (less frequently on H'ville-Hotham). Drive to the conditions, drive to your ability, be courteous, don't rely totally on tyres, chains or vehicle control systems. IMHO a sensible driver on reasonable tread summer tyres will be safer and stay on the road longer than someone in a performance vehicle (of any drive configuration FW,AW, 4W) regardless of their tyres or chains trying to make a sport out of driving in the snow and relying on their car and its technology/components to keep them on the road.

Slow down, relax, pull over for faster drivers, obey signage (ie fit chains when the signs say...not when you think appropriate) and enjoy the drive and skiing.

By jove .... I think you have nailed it Hully
 
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The Plowking

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Or if you are from melb, just drive the other way around.
If its going to snow, I always do. Screw closed/slow roads on a fresh day.
 

Astro66

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FlatLander said:
Hully said:
My little 2cents as a frequent snow driver (less frequently on H'ville-Hotham). Drive to the conditions, drive to your ability, be courteous, don't rely totally on tyres, chains or vehicle control systems. IMHO a sensible driver on reasonable tread summer tyres will be safer and stay on the road longer than someone in a performance vehicle (of any drive configuration FW,AW, 4W) regardless of their tyres or chains trying to make a sport out of driving in the snow and relying on their car and its technology/components to keep them on the road.

Slow down, relax, pull over for faster drivers, obey signage (ie fit chains when the signs say...not when you think appropriate) and enjoy the drive and skiing.

By jove .... I think you have nailed it Hully
Whilst I think it is a very good common sense post. I don't get the nailed it bit.

It's completely glossed over the Subject of the thread. You cannot obey signage to fit chains, if you you own a modern car that requires a chain with no inner chain. Or has clearance issues.

Car manufacturers have solved the problem. Hotham threw their solution in the bin, because a handful of people didn't fit their chains properly. Not because the solution doesn't work.

Chains from a quality manufacturer, that are fitted correctly, and are used at correct speeds, don't fall off, regardless of type.

Hence Hotham being the only place in the world to ban all but diamond pattern chains.

Chains from a quality manufacturer, that are fitted incorrectly, or are used at incorrect speeds, destroy themselves and fall off, regardless of type.
 
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nicole2292

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Hi All,

I have confirmation in writing that Mt. Hotham will not be offering refunds of any kind for any pre-purchased tickets or arrangements.

I have taken this up with Consumer Affairs.

As this decision was made back in September 2012 but was not published to customers until May 2013 the full information relating to and affecting the use of the purchased service was not provided prior to the purchase being made.

Therefore all purchases made prior to the full information being released, where the withheld information affects the customers ability use the purchased services, are now no longer fit for their purpose. Ie. There are people who simply cannot use the services that they purchased.

Fit for purpose is a consumer guarantee which Mt. Hotham must legally abide by.

We'll see how that goes.

Nicole
 
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