Spider chains are not permitted at Hotham

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currawong

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Sounds like a long bow to me when the seller of the pass is a completely different entity to the body that made the regulation. Like expecting a clothes shop to give you a refund because a wedding was called off. Good luck with it.
 

crackson

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Hotham deliberately withheld relevant info from customers to enable them to sell an unusable product.


It's like Hotham is being managed by Prenda Law.
 

currawong

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I can't recall when the chains declaration was made lay year ( but I think it was after hero passes closed). Either way I think it's catch 22.
If hero passes closed before the declaration, then the lift co was unaware of the situation.
If the declaration was made before hero passes went on sale, then caveat emptor. The chains declaration would have been "public knowledge"

Don't get me wrong, I'm sympathetic and I think resort mgt have handled this pretty badly from a PR angle, and do not seem to have worked with other stakeholders for the good of the resort and its regular patrons. I just think you are bashing your head on the wrong wall with this one
 

Azz

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Mind you, having the CEO of Hotham (and Falls) on the Hotham RMB does make it one and the same on some level.

The declaration was not made when I purchased my vehicle pass.

I wonder what happens to the people from the Omeo side who own vehicles that cannot fit diamond pattern chains. There are no secure parking facilities and the bus timetable is less than desirable, only operating three days a week.
 

nicole2292

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Mt. Hotham Resort Management Board and Mt. Hotham Skiing Company are related entities.

They have a duty to their patrons to communicate and work together as their individual decisions directly impact the customers of both parties.

Yes you could not get a refund from a shop if a wedding was called off by someone you knew who had no association with that shop.

If however you purchased tickets a fashion show being held by a direct supplier of the shop and the shop sold you these tickets whilst already knowing full well that you could not actually attend the event as they were not letting people your age / gender / shoe size... whatever in, then they would be in breach of fair trading laws. They can't sell tickets without telling you of the restrictions which will affect the use of the tickets. This is the same thing.
 

FlatLander

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nicole2292 said:
Mt. Hotham Resort Management Board and Mt. Hotham Skiing Company are related entities.

They are not related entities

RMB = council providing municipal services, amongst other things

MHSC = business operating in the resort along with many other businesses
 
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gareth_oau

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Nicole, if you can establish a commercial link between the two parties, then it is a legal fact that a condition cannot be brought to your attention after the contract has been executed.

you could possibly establish if the MHSC or any affiliated party were aware of the RMB direction when they sold you the passes, even if it was not in the knowledge of the public.
 

currawong

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Azz said the declaration was not made when Hero Passes went on sale. When you paid your deposit, that was a contract to buy the pass, even if payment of the balance was deferred. So at the time you committed to buy a pass, the lift company was probably unaware that spider chains would not permitted.
 

MungBean

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FlatLander said:
nicole2292 said:
Mt. Hotham Resort Management Board and Mt. Hotham Skiing Company are related entities.

They are not related entities

RMB = council providing municipal services, amongst other things

MHSC = business operating in the resort along with many other businesses

As Azz said:
"CEO of Hotham (and Falls) on the Hotham RMB"

So there is a relationship, it would be hard to argue otherwise in a court of law. By having the CEO on the RMB board it would be very hard to claim no knowledge. IF the decision had not been made when Hero Passes went on sale but happened later it doesn't change anything because then the board member of the RMB would know how it would effect people they had sold product to.

Really don't see how Hotham have a leg to stand on here. I guess they are just praying it doesn't go legal. Of course taking a healthy % of your customer base (even 10% is a healthy percentage) and telling them "sucks to be you" is an interesting way to do business and continues to provide evidence that the Aussie resorts are more interested in screwing you for every dollar than providing a good value service.

Just another reason I wont be travelling south of the boarder this year and my plans had been to do just that for a week.
 
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CarveMan

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This is entirely the doing of the MHARMB. As I am led to believe there was no consultation whatsoever with MHSC who are now in the invidious position of having to deal with upset customers who have been sold a product that is now compromised. MHSC is as upset as everyone here.
 
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treeski

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The fact that both parties have the one website which includes information on both 'lift prices' and 'travel plans' surely implies that there ought to be a degree of collaboration of communication between the the 2 entities, one would think
 

CarveMan

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treeski said:
The fact that both parties have the one website which includes information on both 'lift prices' and 'travel plans' surely implies that there ought to be a degree of collaboration of communication between the the 2 entities, one would think

Yes, one would think. Think being the operative word.

This thread is further proof of the stain that RMBs are on the ski industry in Victoria.
 
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MungBean

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CarveMan that may be true (although with their CEO on the RMB board it raises obvious questions about that - although one board member can be voted down and the board don't necessarily make policy of this type) the fact remains they now have a customer relations nightmare.

They can try the Buller approach from last year "sucks to be you" and watch their patrons leave in droves (Buller must be laughing because a lot went to Hotham so they may see some back now) which seems to be what they are doing according to those reporting correspondence here.

Or you could try to appease your customer and then complain when more Aussies ski overseas next year. Well
doh.gif
wonder why??

Of course they will still run their pretty little advertising campaign through Snow Australia saying how great it is to ski here, unless of course we have sold you a product you can't use, then "sucks to be you, we have your money but and you aren't seeing any of it back. Stiff. Hope to see you next year or when you buy a suitable car"

Good way to endear your quickly deserting customer base to you.
 
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CarveMan

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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the situation, just trying to make it clear that MHSC is in no way responsible for creating this situation and has been left carrying the can.

And you're spot on that as far as the consumer is concerned, they don't care a hoot whether something is ski company or RMB - as far as they're concerned, it's 'Mt Hotham' - this is the point that's so frustrating for MHSC, as RMB has little to no marketing function so they've made an absurd decision and left someone else to clean it up, who arguably has much more to lose.
 

Darb

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can someone summarise for me what this whole issue is about?

SPider chains aren't prohibited, but a lot of cars can't use anythig other than spider chains?
 

Azz

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currawong said:
Azz said the declaration was not made when Hero Passes went on sale.

NO, I said when I bought my resort entry pass.
smile.gif


What date did they publicly release the information about the new chain requirements?
 
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mr

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i tend to use triple the recommended doses boodwah, but just that torque stuff from the bright servo

in the cruiser i have 2 tanks so in winter the smaller tank is mr's alpine mix, and i swap tanks driving up the mountain to get it fully running through the system. 10 days parked at wire plain carpark or machinery sheds mid august, no dramas
 

currawong

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I've just gone back through some old emails and found that the declaration about diamond pattern chains was signed on 22 September. I heard about it on 11 October. There was no explicit mention of spider chains in that declaration.

The decision to only allow diamond pattern chains appears to have been taken by MHRMB, VicRoads and Vic Police at a meeting on 23 August

Hero passes went on sale 10 Sept and closed on 8 Oct. The declaration was made in this period, but the spider chain interpretation was not as far as I can tell.

I wonder who and when made the decision to interpret the declaration to mean that spider chains are not a type of diamond pattern chain


BTW
Just because MHSC's CEO has a seat on the board does not mean that MHSC could take advantage of that information. Many company boards have members who also sit on boards of companies that could have conflicting interests. They may sometimes be required to absent themselves from some discussions/votes. They are certainly expected to respect board confidentiality and not use information for the benefit of other companies.
 
"The decision to only allow diamond pattern chains
appears to have been taken by MHRMB,
VicRoads and Vic Police at a meeting on 23 August"

A) correct,
confirmed in the second post on this topic

" The protocol agreed on 23 August 2012 between Vic Roads (Benalla); Victoria Police District Headquarters (Wangaratta) and the Board regarding weather events and conditions affecting the Great Alpine Road and road related areas (as defined in the road rules) in the Mt Hotham Alpine Resort; and other factors."


B) Also confirmed in this news item from the ABC News of Friday August 31st 2013

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-31/resort-bans-problematic-snow-chain/4235714

ABC News 24 Live Stream

The Mount Hotham Alpine Resort has banned a type of car chain it says is causing havoc on roads around snowfields.

Last week, management met VicRoads and police to discuss what were the most appropriate snow chains for vehicles during severe weather events.

The Mount Hotham Alpine Resort says when there is severe weather, ladder chains will be banned to ensure traffic is not affected.

The resort management board CEO, Jim Atteridge, says other chains are also being considered.

"The spider chain I've had a good look at it is actually a ladder chain but attached in a different way and they're quite problematic in our experience in the last three to four of these events," he said.

"The spider chain ... has a habit of being thrown off the vehicle quite regularly, so that will be the next on the list I think."

C) confirmed
" Hotham MHRMB Significant Weather Event Compliance Criteria"
Date: 24th August - 27th August 2012
"Vehicle Checklist for Participating in Convoys"

D) confirmed
Hotham MHRMB ROAD MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR FRIDAY 07.09.2012

Due to severe weather conditions expected on Hotham beginning Friday 7 September the Great Alpine Road between Harrietville and Hotham is under a Controlled Traffic Management Plan.

Delays may be experienced at Harrietville and the resort entry at Buckland Gate.
Road management personnel will be in attendance at both the Harrietville and Buckland Gates.

Controlled convoys from the Buckland Gate to Hotham will be implemented when appropriate.

All vehicles must have diamond pattern chains and be fitted when directed.

Vehicles are advised to travel via the Omeo approach.

For more details about travelling to Hotham by road Click Here

Thank you for your support.

06 September 2012

http://www.mthotham.com.au/news/latest/MTH_News_6-September-12_12627.asp


E) How bad can the conditions be on the Great Alpine Road in Winter?

refer
https://www.ski.com.au/xf/posts/1745242
 
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The Plowking

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CarveMan said:
treeski said:
The fact that both parties have the one website which includes information on both 'lift prices' and 'travel plans' surely implies that there ought to be a degree of collaboration of communication between the the 2 entities, one would think

Yes, one would think. Think being the operative word.

This thread is further proof of the stain that RMBs are on the ski industry in Victoria.
Nail on the head.
 
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mr

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the date of 23 august is interesting, as its one week after the big dump that shut the h'ville road, and if i recall correctly there was a second dump on that friday 23r ish, i was up there from the 16th-25th

on the 16th, while things were going mental (well the various parties were, the traffic going nowhere) on the h'ville side, i drove up from the omeo side (the writing was on the wall) and got to davenport without being directed to fit chains, but only maybe 2 inches snow on the road
 

Yardsale

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We got a new car this year - and we made sure that we could put chains on it. Every other friend who comes to Hotham has done the same thing, some of them have even made sure that they can fit Nokians their car as they spend the season on the .

It is unfortunate. If you ask nicely and plead your case you may be able to get a refund on the parking pass and go and buy one for Falls (and use the same lift pass).

If you have paid for accommodation - seriosuly look at getting the bus up the hill. For the amount you pay for parking and chain hire, the bus comes reasonably close if you are doing a week.

It is all annoying as hell. But there are not too many roads on the planet where:
a) you have a 10% gradient that is open when covered in snow
b) allow you to drive up and over (almost) the summit of a mountain in winter
c) then have you park on top of a hill, possibly in a frozen dirt carpark (Blue Ribbon).

It's point C that got me thinking though.

The spider chains do not lock over the other side of the tyre (correct me if I am wrong) but rely on gripping the "tread" of the tyre.

A driver fits the chains after coming up the road when the tyres are warm, and then the car sits at the top of the hill. Due to the drop in temperature, you'd get a pressure drop. I thought the pressure drop could allow the chains to become a bit more loose.

So a bit of googling on tyres, pressure and temperature lead me here. http://www.arden.org/misc/pressure.html I'd be guesstimating that there is only a 2 to 3 psi difference if you had hooned it up the hill, and then sat the car in the coral carpark at -5 for a whole day. I am not certain that would be enough to make the chains loose (car nerds... comments please!)

If that is indeed the cause, maybe the issue could be solved simply by a sign saying "Please tighten you chains before descending".

Needless to say, this applies to diamond pattern chains as well. It may stop people driving off the hill "playing the bongos" on their wheel arches.

Snowtyres - would it be worth you zapping up to Hot Ham, performing the experiement, and having a chat to the RMB about it in the process. I guess picking a cold morning - going for a decent drive up the hill, and fitting the chains in the carpark and measure the pressure in the tyres - or going up at night, fitting it, and leaving it down near the snowmakers in BigD. Take the pressure on arrival and on departure and see the drop. See if the chains have become loose.

It is a trivial task to tighten spider chains, so just reminding people with a sign will get the jumping out and cranking them up in seconds.

I suspect Hotham are going to have many people turn up with these chains, and I doubt anyone wants to see them dissapointed.

I would love to see these chains work for everyone. It would make the first time on the hill much less daunting for newbies, and save a lot of frozen hands on the Hotham road.

Thanks for all your efforts in trying to import these. Lets see if we can figure out how to make them work.
 
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DbSki

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I'd be guesstimating that there is only a 2 to 3 psi difference if you had hooned it up the hill, and then sat the car in the coral carpark at -5 for a whole day. I am not certain that would be enough to make the chains loose (car nerds... comments please!)

1 or 2 psi road driving wont change the tyre physically.
However having driven all the way up with chains by the time you get there if you have been forced to drive on road without lots of snow the chains may have warmed and stretched a little or enough to cause them to dislodge a little so it'd be worth checking them visually again prior to departing to make sure they are all on properly.
If they are loose or need tightening at that point it is possible indication they have dislodged a bit and should check they are on properly before just retensioning them only.
 
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"It is a trivial task to tighten spider chains"
Not so, spider chains are adjusted to suit the tyre size before fitting and cannot be "tightened" on to the tyre after fitting, the chain is always fitted "loose", by design, to provide the automatic-drive away fitting and easy removal features. The "spider chain" will grip to the snow/ice but the tyre can slip or spin inside the spider chain. This problem is compounded by the camber of the road, the weight and torque of the vehicle and the amount of tread on the tyre that is not covered by the chain. The problem is worse when the vehicle has been parked over night, or longer, at the resort because of the low ambient temperature makes the tyres harder and therefore has even less grip to the chain.
Thule K-Summit fitting
http://roofcarriersystems.com.au/item/thule-k-summit-xxl-snow-chains/
Konig K-Summit fitting
http://roofcarriersystems.com.au/item/konig-k-summit-xxl-snow-chains/
Rud Centrax fitting
http://roofcarriersystems.com.au/item/rud-centrax-snow-chains/

"tyres, pressure and temperature"
The impact of temperature on the pressure of passenger car tyres is approx. 10 kPa (0.1 bar) / 10 ˚C.
http://www.nokiantyres.com/tyre-inflation-pressures

"the chains may have warmed and stretched a little"
Snow chains don't actually stretch but with use they do increase in length because of wear "between" the links.
 
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Yardsale

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I think I get the problem.

With diamond pattern chains, yes you can get spin inside the chain. The chain will not normally come off because of the spinning though as
1) the chain is secured around the sides of the tyre.
2) the links then can sit into the tread as they go around the tyre.

With spiders, if your wheel spins inside the tyre, there is a chance, the wheel of chain will travel sideways during that spin. The result is that the chain could come off - in much the same way you can twist a cork to loosen it from a wine bottle.
 

Astro66

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@ ST
And yet, no where else in the world, has banned them.

The snowless country, leading the world in snow chain regulation.

Hotham RMB. Laughing their ass off.
laugh.gif


And the locals, bending over backwards to conform.
laugh.gif


Learn from the French. "Vive la Revolutione"
 
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teckel

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Yardsale said:
I think I get the problem.

With diamond pattern chains, yes you can get spin inside the chain. The chain will not normally come off because of the spinning though as
1) the chain is secured around the sides of the tyre.
2) the links then can sit into the tread as they go around the tyre.

With spiders, if your wheel spins inside the tyre, there is a chance, the wheel of chain will travel sideways during that spin. The result is that the chain could come off - in much the same way you can twist a cork to loosen it from a wine bottle.
Do you really think this would happen only in Australia, and then only on the Mt Hotham road? Do you really think the top chain companies (Rud & Konig) would put their reputation on the line if their chains might come off? Do you really think an Australian who sells roof racks knows better than anyone in Europe or the US including the chain manufacturers?
 
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"With diamond pattern chains,
yes you can get spin inside the chain.
The chain will not normally come off"

Even correctly fitted, correct size diamond pattern chains will, and have, come off when they are fitted to low profile high speed rated summer tyres.
This is because the diamond pattern snow chain will grip to the snow/ice but the low profile high speed rated summer tyres will not grip the chain, the same problems as spider chains.

I will post some images, taken at Mount Hotham last winter, showing this in the morning.
 

Ozzifutura

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snowtyres said:
"It is a trivial task to tighten spider chains"
Not so, spider chains are adjusted to suit the tyre size before fitting and cannot be "tightened" on to the tyre after fitting, the chain is always fitted "loose", by design, to provide the automatic-drive away fitting and easy removal features. The "spider chain" will grip to the snow/ice but the tyre can slip or spin inside the spider chain. This problem is compounded by the camber of the road, the weight and torque of the vehicle and the amount of tread on the tyre that is not covered by the chain. The problem is worse when the vehicle has been parked over night, or longer, at the resort because of the low ambient temperature makes the tyres harder and therefore has even less grip to the chain.
Thule K-Summit fitting
http://roofcarriersystems.com.au/item/thule-k-summit-xxl-snow-chains/
Konig K-Summit fitting
http://roofcarriersystems.com.au/item/konig-k-summit-xxl-snow-chains/
Rud Centrax fitting
http://roofcarriersystems.com.au/item/rud-centrax-snow-chains/

"tyres, pressure and temperature"
The impact of temperature on the pressure of passenger car tyres is approx. 10 kPa (0.1 bar) / 10 ˚C.
http://www.nokiantyres.com/tyre-inflation-pressures

"the chains may have warmed and stretched a little"
Snow chains don't actually stretch but with use they do increase in length because of wear "between" the links.

Of course the only place you will find the stuff ST writes about in relation to Spider Chains/Winter Tyres/Not be able to tension/slippage within the chain etc is on STs website - I expect more related to his own efforts to sell his product as opposed to fact. There is zero mention of winter tyres in the Thule instructions. They do mention snow and mud tyres as they may have slighty different dimensions requiring a slight adjustment prior to fitting.

ST simply copies and pastes then edits slightly to give the impression the ramblings are recommendations of Thule......best you do some research and treat his preachings with some caution
 
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Ozzifutura

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Interesting also re tyre pressures and the implication that the chains slip due pressure diff (tyre size) - I guess that is what ST is trying to tell us. I would imagine the main reason for correct pressure would be ride comfort and tyre wear (profile and road fit). You will note that the increase in press from normal to full load vehicle is equivalent to 10deg temp change.

Yes tyre pressure is important - but to imply it causes the chains to slip.....not sure that is the reason Nokian are discussing the issue ????? Another attempt at miss-information ???????
 

Alfred14

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Mogul said:
Just like there is no mention that what is probably the most popular 4wd tyre sold is rated for winter use, just like the Nokian's and more than likely at half the cost.

What tyre would that be?
 
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DbSki

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snowtyres said:
"the chains may have warmed and stretched a little"
Snow chains don't actually stretch but with use they do increase in length because of wear "between" the links.

No I said

"if you have been forced to drive on road without lots of snow the chains may have warmed and stretched a little "
 
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These images that are attached show the problems when snow chains are attached to a high performance summer tyre.


Vehicle
2012 BMW X5 with sports pack option, AWD snow chains fitted to rear wheels
BMW states "snow chains can not be fitted to X5/X6 supplied with sports pack 19", 20" & 21" wheels"
275/40R20 front - Run Flat Tyres
315/35R20 rear - Run Flat Tyres
Tyres
Bridgestone 315/35R20 110W High Performance Summer Tyre with 270km/h speed rating
Snow Chain
Konig S267 Magic SUV 267 12mm. clearance snow chain, correct size for tyre.
Same chain as Thule XG-12 Pro size 267 12mm. clearance snow chain, correct size for tyre.
Location
Great Alpine Road between Hotham and Dinner Plain, late July 2012
Problem
Correctly fitting snow chains will grip to the snow/ice but the tyre can slip or spin the chain even when they are tightened on to the tyre.

DHNNsm2.jpg



7XNTt2W.jpg


As with "spider chains" there are issues even when diamond pattern snow chain system are used on high performance 2WD or AWD "summer" tyres. On summer tyres snow chains will grip to the snow/ice but the tyre can slip or spin the chain even when they are tightened on to the tyre. The problem is compounded by the camber of the road, the weight and torque of the vehicle and the amount of tread on the tyre. The problem is worse when the vehicle has been parked at the resort because of the low ambient temperature makes the tyres harder and therefore has even less grip to the chain.

WFYSygK.jpg



Thule XG-12 Pro size 267 12mm. clearance snow chain, correct size for tyre, fitted to Bridgestone 315/35R20 110W High Performance Summer Tyre with 270km/h speed rating on 2012 BMW X5 with sports pack option, AWD snow chains fitted to rear wheels
 
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Yardsale

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teckel said:
Do you really think this would happen only in Australia, and then only on the Mt Hotham road? Do you really think the top chain companies (Rud & Konig) would put their reputation on the line if their chains might come off? Do you really think an Australian who sells roof racks knows better than anyone in Europe or the US including the chain manufacturers?

No.
No.
Possibly, marketing and sales is like that sometimes for all sorts of complex reasons.
Why not, do you think that someone who owns a ski shop in a small country town would know more about bushfires than the staff at the CFA control center? Sometimes on the ground experience is the kind of experience the head office and research centers cannot get.
 
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teckel

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snowtyres said:
These images that are attached show the problems when snow chains are attached to a high performance summer tyre.


Vehicle
2012 BMW X5 with sports pack option, AWD snow chains fitted to rear wheels
BMW states "snow chains can not be fitted to X5/X6 supplied with sports pack 19", 20" & 21" wheels"
The problem is not summer tyres. The problem is low profile tyres. (20 inch rims). Nothing to do with summers vs winter. Everything to do with low profile. Quite simply it is almost impossible to fit diamond pattern chains to a tyre like that when the chains barely make it onto the sidewall of the tyre. I know that. You know that. Smaller rimmed summer tyres would work just fine. They do not need to be winter tyres. Why do you consistently try to mislead people by treating them as idiots?
 
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Astro66

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What a load of crap, ST.
Zero evidence the chains were fitted correctly.
Look at the yellow chain. It's fully pulled into ratchet. These chains need a blue link taken out.

All this proves, is regardless of what chains you fit. Fitted incorrectly, they will come off.

This shows exactly how stupid Hotham RMB's decision was.

7XNTt2W.jpg
 
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Astro66

Still looking for a park in Thredbo
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813
Eastern Subs Syd
ST,
This is what the yellow chain should look like. At a minimum. I should probably take out a link.
The more you speak, the less I trust you, with any advice.
You distort everything to sell product.
It may be harsh, but I really wish you were not part of the Australian ski industry, due to your constant fear campaign. And the Hotham decision, clearly shows the fear you inspire is spreading. Denying valid visitors a chance to drive to Hotham.

Screenshot_2013-05-16-15-24-08_zps38ab72d6.png
 
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Astro66

Still looking for a park in Thredbo
Ski Pass
Jul 27, 2009
19,841
18,682
813
Eastern Subs Syd
What are you talking about. Even the link you posted, had at least 3 or 4 yellow links, showing from the ratchet. The BMW had 1 or even none.
 
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