Spider chains are not permitted at Hotham

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teckel

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No, you're wrong. The thick yellow plastic thing is not a chain. You don't need to pull it tighter - the hook on the other end where the big red thing is does that for you (and pulls in the blue chain) - it's self-tensioning, not like your chains which despite your assumptions, are not self-tensioning.
 

Astro66

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The yellow chain or cord connects to blue chain. There must be an amount of it before the ratchet. Like in the fitting photo, or the tensioner cannot pull any thru. Otherwise the circumference of blue chain cannot be reduced. Chain will not tighten.

T2magic_0123_zpsc31494d4.jpg
 
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the_guru

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Why isn't there 71 pages of people complaining about lift prices or resort entry prices.
For a lot of people it doesn't seem that money is a problem. Nice cars, holidays in ski resorts in Oz and OS.
So why are you all being such tight arses now?
Follow the rules. It's quite simple. Or "F" off and find somewhere else to ski and complain about your latte!!
 
Image # 3 shows the same chain size 267 correctly fitted to the same 315/35R20 110 W size tyre on the same BMW X5 as image # 1 & 2.
Image # 1 & 2 shows Konig 267 with the auto tensioner part in yellow, image # 3 shows Thule 267 with the auto tensioner part in silver grey.

When the correctly fitted chain slipped on the tyre, ( our customer, who provided the images, reported it did this many times driving between Dinner Plain and Hotham during the week he was there ) because there is insufficient grip from the tyre to the chain, the chain became looser and the auto tensioner pulled the yellow section tighter.
Snow chain size 267 is listed in both the Thule and Konig fit guide for this tyre size. The chain did not continually slip off the tyre because it was incorrectly fitted or was the incorrect size.

The snow chain shown in the next post is a Konig Simaka/Skipass, and does not have the auto tensioning feature.

On the BMW X5, fitted with W speed rated (270 km/h) summer tyres, these 267 chains fitted to the rear wheels will increase traction for take off and driving but can never assist with steering or lateral stability. Under braking the front wheels will always lock up easily, and the vehicle will then go into ABS mode, increasing the stopping distance.
Additionally the vehicle will not 'turn in', it will understeer, because there is insufficient grip from the front tyres. The problem is always worse when driving down hill and when the tyres are 'cold' from the low ambient temperatures when parked overnight, or longer at an alpine resort.
 

Astro66

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BMW's chains were too big. The photo of the properly fitted chains on VW clearly shows this.

No ajustment left on BMW. Lots of adjustment on VW.

Nothing to do with tyres. Nothing to do with type of chains.

Hotham screwed up. Due to ill advice from peeps like yourself.
 

Hothski

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the_guru said:
Why isn't there 71 pages of people complaining about lift prices or resort entry prices.
For a lot of people it doesn't seem that money is a problem. Nice cars, holidays in ski resorts in Oz and OS.
So why are you all being such tight arses now?
Follow the rules. It's quite simple. Or "F" off and find somewhere else to ski and complain about your latte!!

^This! 100 Posts ago!

Seems a lot of people still pushing this issue are not even Hotham regulars!

Arguing for arguments sake.

This is the new 'Helmet' thread
 
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Astro66

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Calling me names isn't going to change the facts.
So once again, look at the pictures below.

The BMW yellow toothed cord or chain is completely pulled through.
Therefore it cannot be made tighter.

The VW yellow toothed cord or chain is not completely pulled through.
It can still be pulled through further.
This will reduce circumference of blue chain.
This will tighten chain on tyre.

7XNTt2W_12345_zpse99ed84f.jpg
 
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dossa5

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AstroSki66 said:
Calling me names isn't going to change the facts.
So once again, look at the pictures below.

The BMW yellow toothed cord or chain is completely pulled through.
Therefore it cannot be made tighter.

The VW yellow toothed cord or chain is not completely pulled through.
It can still be pulled through further.
This will reduce circumference of blue chain.
This will tighten chain on tyre.

7XNTt2W_12345_zpse99ed84f.jpg

Astro I dont think the chain on the left needs tightening, looks ill fitted anyways.

sticks and stones guys
 
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Astro66

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teckel said:
Astro, You're the one trying to change the facts, not me. You're wrong, and you don't want to learn. [-Deleted by Admin-]
I have provided a diagram, clearly stating my case. All you have done is call me names.

Please present your case, validating argument. If you have better things to do I understand.

@dossa,
Snow Tyres is claiming that chain was fitted correctly, but due to tyres being summer tyres, the chain nearly came off.
I am claiming:
1) Chain is too big. Needs a blue link removed.
2) No idea whether chain was fitted correctly, as we do not have a before photo.
 
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dossa5

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Yeah chain does look big.

Summer tyres- pfft.

Snow tyres obviously has so much more on snow experience than all of us put together-
We need to listen to him. But you see the more we talk him up in this thread, clearly the happier he is. (get outa the shop r)
 

Snow Addict

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In the BMW photo, does the inner blue hoop coming over the tyre tread mean it's improperly fitted? I'm no chain fitting expert.
 

main street

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dossa5 said:
Yeah chain does look big.

Summer tyres- pfft.

Snow tyres obviously has so much more on snow experience than all of us put together-
We need to listen to him. But you see the more we talk him up in this thread, clearly the happier he is. (get outa the shop r)

I very much doubt that.
 
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main street

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AstroSki66 said:
Calling me names isn't going to change the facts.
So once again, look at the pictures below.

The BMW yellow toothed cord or chain is completely pulled through.
Therefore it cannot be made tighter.

The VW yellow toothed cord or chain is not completely pulled through.
It can still be pulled through further.
This will reduce circumference of blue chain.
This will tighten chain on tyre.

7XNTt2W_12345_zpse99ed84f.jpg


I can't believe no-one has posted this....





Now,.... I'm happy to be corrected, but it looks to me like Astro is spot on.
 
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Ozzifutura

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I tend to agree with Astro - looks to me like the chain is too big....Looks like the self tensioner thingo has been pulled to is bitter end and still the blue is loose. There is no way the yellow chain can be pulled any further (shortening up the blue chain and tightening the set -up). Hmmmm....so the upshot is that whichever way we go if the chains are incorrect size or incorrectly fitted they may come off - the same applies to K-Summits (spider chains)
Have to wonder about how much elasticity is left in the yellow bungy cord after it has been left to freeze up over night even if there were some scope left on the blue chain side to tension up ?
 

main street

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teckel said:
Astro, You're the one trying to change the facts, not me. You're wrong, and you don't want to learn. <removed the personal abuse>.

Perhaps you can explain which "facts" are the ones Astro is trying to change ??

To me, his position has been pretty consistent right from the get go.....
 
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Astro66

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Nice detective work by MS.
thumbsup.gif


So most agree, the BMW chain was a little big. Which is probably what caused the chain to almost detach.

So how come the supposed expert, concluded the car needed new tyres and rims, a very expensive solution on the X5. When it could have been resolved, by the simple solution of removing a blue link. A very cheap solution.

Could his judgement be swayed by profit margin? Or was it just an oversight ?

Both Hotham RMB, and ordinary folks. Pick your advice carefully.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me !!
 
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Charlie

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Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me !!

Well, Astro has just proved he's smarter than Dubya!
 
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FlatLander

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snowtyres said:
Image # 3 shows the same chain size 267 correctly fitted to the same 315/35R20 110 W size tyre on the same BMW X5 as image # 1 & 2.
Image # 1 & 2 shows Konig 267 with the auto tensioner part in yellow, image # 3 shows Thule 267 with the auto tensioner part in silver grey.

When the correctly fitted chain slipped on the tyre, ( our customer, who provided the images, reported it did this many times driving between Dinner Plain and Hotham during the week he was there ) because there is insufficient grip from the tyre to the chain, the chain became looser and the auto tensioner pulled the yellow section tighter.
Snow chain size 267 is listed in both the Thule and Konig fit guide for this tyre size. The chain did not continually slip off the tyre because it was incorrectly fitted or was the incorrect size.

The snow chain shown in the next post is a Konig Simaka/Skipass, and does not have the auto tensioning feature.

On the BMW X5, fitted with W speed rated (270 km/h) summer tyres, these 267 chains fitted to the rear wheels will increase traction for take off and driving but can never assist with steering or lateral stability. Under braking the front wheels will always lock up easily, and the vehicle will then go into ABS mode, increasing the stopping distance.
Additionally the vehicle will not 'turn in', it will understeer, because there is insufficient grip from the front tyres. The problem is always worse when driving down hill and when the tyres are 'cold' from the low ambient temperatures when parked overnight, or longer at an alpine resort.

Sorry ST chains for a 315/35R20 tyre....NO, let me find the bus time table for you.

This is probably why reputable chain hire outlets wont hire chains for anything less than a 40 or 45 profile tyre. not enough sidewall, to much room for error. I dont know if this is an issue with fitting technique, probably is.

The chain manufacturers will provide a chain to fit that tyre, but its just not worth the angst!!!


bus time table...here let me find that for you sir!
 
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dossa5

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Is the pic on the left legit, the tyre and arch ect just seem so clean.
Surely no one drove lilke that unless its just a demo.
Sorry but can't be bothered going back through the thread.

Still waiting on you're on snow exp. ST
 

teckel

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main street said:
teckel said:
Astro, You're the one trying to change the facts, not me. You're wrong, and you don't want to learn. <removed the personal abuse>.

Perhaps you can explain which "facts" are the ones Astro is trying to change ??

To me, his position has been pretty consistent right from the get go.....
Astro does not understand self-tensioning chains. He thinks his Skipass chains are self-tensioners. They're not. The T2 Magic chains are. When a self-tensioning chain comes off, clearly it's going to tension, just as that one has. There is no way anyone can say that the chain was too big unless you could see it fitted before it came off.
 
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Astro66

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My Skipass did self-tension one link, using the rubber band instead of retractable bungee.
Even Snow Tyres said they can do this.
Hence I said, regardless of design, you could say they self-tension.

I understand, that after what you said about me, now some peeps agree with my conclusion, you need to discredit me. And , that's fine. Being you, I wondered what took so long.
wink.gif


Just trying to make sure the debate is balanced, and any evidence provided, to enforce even greater costs, has it's checks and balances.
 
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main street

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teckel said:
main street said:
teckel said:
Astro, You're the one trying to change the facts, not me. You're wrong, and you don't want to learn. <removed the personal abuse>.

Perhaps you can explain which "facts" are the ones Astro is trying to change ??

To me, his position has been pretty consistent right from the get go.....
Astro does not understand self-tensioning chains. He thinks his Skipass chains are self-tensioners. They're not. The T2 Magic chains are. When a self-tensioning chain comes off, clearly it's going to tension, just as that one has. There is no way anyone can say that the chain was too big unless you could see it fitted before it came off.



AstroSki66 said:
My Skipass did self-tension one link, using the rubber band instead of retractable bungee.
Even Snow Tyres said they can do this.
Hence I said, regardless of design, you could say they self-tension.

This ^^^^

I have had similar design sets of chains for :

2007 Caprice
2004 Lexus
2011 Merc

Every single one of them has adjusted "in" by a chain link or so when first driven (& subsequently checked after 50 metres or thereabouts),..... due to the large amount of stretch (tension) placed on the rubber connection piece when first fitting the chains.

On checking the chains I would move the rubber connection piece to maintain tension after the adjustment. Never once had a chain slip or come off.
 
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teckel

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FFS! I have to make a living. I have a ski hire. Season has started
rolleyes.gif

That's still not 'self-tensioning' - moving one link.
When that chain (in ST's pics) came off, the bungee pulled it right in because it was no longer attached to the wheel - the wheel was no longer holding the blue chain around the circumference. And we get the situation that you see.
The problem was not the chain size. The problem is the small rims. It's not meant to take diamond pattern chains - it's meant to take spider chains. It's the classic case of when a spider chain is needed. The classic case of what will happen this year at Hotham where spiders are banned. People with tyres like this will try to fit diamond pattern chains which will come off. It's the reason why Hotham must change its absurd rules.

Oh yeah, despite ST's assertions that it's the correct chain size for the tyres, it's actually off Konig's chain charts. In other words, diamond patterned chains cannot be fitted to it (successfully).
 
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Astro66

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We can argue all night. But the statement you just made is not correct. The chain had not come off. Everything was still attached. The chain had rotated around. See pic. A logical explanation is, it was fitted incorrectly or was loose to start. Considering the yellow tensioner had no slack. I call loose to start.

Watch MS's video. The yellow cord is toothed to only allow travel in one direction. It can only tighten. You have to manual release red ratchet to loosen.

DHNNsm2.jpg
 
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fletch

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We use Alpine Diesel but there is a point where it useless. All I do is use 4 hot water bottles, pop the plastic manifold cover and sit the bottles on the in/out pipes for about five minutes with the manifold resting on top before starting the car. It works every time. Emilio from Alpine Towing use to just blast it with a hot gas blower for a few minutes but I got sick of calling and waiting. Actually, he got sick of us.
$T2eC16dHJGoFFvNw2n(,BSVIkW6JG!~~60_35.JPG
 

Charlie

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I have also used a gas blower powered by an inverter to thaw out the diesel, but have ditched it in favour of a simple 10 litre garden sprayer filled with hot water, (Provided there is access to hot water) the direct jet can be applied to all the relevant bits, and is much faster than hot air
 
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Hully

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How did this thread escape being banned?
You only had to mention the word "spiderchains" and that was it.
Don't think that this thread has anything to do with motor vehicle traction aids....I believe (though I don't claim to have read through the entire thread) that it is comprehensive review of bling worn by alpine arachnids. ;)
 
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