Spider chains are not permitted at Hotham

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Skiddy85

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I actually will be really curious if it has an effect. Would not surprise me if the first decent low level snow fall results in as much chaos as last year.
 

Astro66

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Has anyone suggested a single fitting point, depending on snow line, to Hotham.

The system works well at Perisher.

Sure sometimes they make you fit early and you wear your chains. Sure beats not being allowed at all. Or slugging you with a $2800 fine.

Hotham is appearing uglier and uglier the more you read into this.
 

cqen2l

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There numerous fitting bays catering for snow at different levels.

Hotham is appearing uglier and uglier the more you read into this.
rolleyes.gif


Please stay at Perisher, the world will be better for it.
wink.gif
 
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Hothski

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A Hazardous Area Endorsement, while appropriate for bus drivers and HV drivers, would be overkill for car drivers - a true example of over governance.

I think there are too many people looking for a conspiracy theory instead of accepting that there was an issue with people driving up the road last year (and in the past) in an unsafe way and something is being done about it.

Simply making the general public more aware about the potential issues the GAR throws up can only be a positive - I was talking more about signs and more of a visual presence along the road when chains were being fitted.

For me it doesn't impact - I own a set of diamond chains and my car accepts them. I also fit chains when required - I own a AWD car and don't see getting to the top of the mountain quicker than others or without chains as an achievement to gloat about - some do unfortunately.

I can understand the frustration of spider chain owners however the line needed to be drawn somewhere. I have asked before - how many people are really affected by this ruling? Proportionately, what are the numbers of Diamond Chain use compared to Spider Chains - considering that NO hire outlets hire anything but diamond chains.

I have little time for the RMB generally but I don't see them 'cutting off their nose to spite their own face'. I'm sure they put a bit of thought into this rule.
 

dossa5

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And generally at these bays is the Hoys chain fitting service with a sign stating Fit Chains Here or something similar.

On most occassions it is not policed

The issue is how do you drive on snow/ice covered low vis windy steep road with drop offs on either side. Oh can be some wind sometimes creating drifts
laugh.gif
 
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currawong

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at perisher sic in 2010 there was a reasonable overnight snowfall on the saturday night. i could believe the chaos on the road on sunday morning. they were fitting chains but there was still carnage with people going off even on fairly flat ground. i'd hate to think hotham modelled itself on that fiasco.

2wd cars need chains many (most?) days of the season on the harrietville approach to hotham. people are already screaming about the cost of entry fees at hotham. rostering extra staff to stand around telling idiots to do what the signs say is really going to help that situation.
 

Astro66

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cqen2l said:
There numerous fitting bays catering for snow at different t levels
So why not enforce fitting at a certain level, instead of fining.

Seems a no brainer. You could then check that good, well fitted spiders are used.
 
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Astro66

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One person for 4 hours in the morning isn't going to blow the budget.

Seems more logical than allowing peeps to choose anywhere. I thought safety was the issue.
 
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hongomania

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AstroSki66 said:
Has anyone suggested a single fitting point, depending on snow line, to Hotham.

The system works well at Perisher.

Sure sometimes they make you fit early and you wear your chains. Sure beats not being allowed at all. Or slugging you with a $2800 fine.

Hotham is appearing uglier and uglier the more you read into this.

have you driven up hotham from harrietville in really bad coniditions before? it can be very very dangerous especially around the summit section when the road narrows due to the snow bank. also, the snow clearer blowing snow across your windscreen. hothams road is unique to australia and with more and more punters going up its going to create more issues.
 
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currawong

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i agree that it hazardous area endorsements for normal cars would be overkill. however it's pretty much a choice between processes that cater for the lowest common denominator, or some sort of qualification for an exemption.
 

currawong

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AstroSki66 said:
One person for 4 hours in the morning isn't going to blow the budget.

Seems more logical than allowing peeps to choose anywhere. I thought safety was the issue.

what's magical about the morning?

hotham road can have almost permanent ice on some sections during winter
 
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Ozzifutura

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As many have said here - has more to do with drivers than anything else I would supect.

I read on other forums punters that regualarly head up without chains, a set of chains that wil not fit (to show authorities) thinking because they have AWD they will be fine.

I have even been offered rental of chains when the vendor full well knew they would not fit my car....you'll be right mate !Of course I did not take him up on the offer and took the bus. Funny how many people cam barreling past the bus - idiots or locals that have the know how ??????

I also agree that signage could be better not only advising when/where to put chains on but also when it is safe to take them off.

There are the element that think they can go fatser than anyone else but fail to understand the number 1 rule - how to STOP.
 

hongomania

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look its really this simple.
buy / hire some chains. fit them if required. how did this turn into a 21 page discussion.
 

currawong

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Ozzifutura said:
I also agree that signage could be better not only advising when/where to put chains on but also when it is safe to take them off.
also an issue at falls too. It is "crying wolf" to leave the fit-chains-here signs too low down the hill.

some guidance on when to take chains off would also be helpful, especially to less frequent visitors. there can still be icy corners below long stretches of clear road
 
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dossa5

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hongomania said:
look its really this simple.
buy / hire some chains. fit them if required. how did this turn into a 21 page discussion.

Maybe because of the exorbitant entry fees, lack of service and hidious decisions have finally set peeps off.
 
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hongomania

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dossa5 said:
hongomania said:
look its really this simple.
buy / hire some chains. fit them if required. how did this turn into a 21 page discussion.

Maybe because of the exorbitant entry fees, lack of service and hidious decisions have finally set peeps off.

i thought my season pass was quite good value when i purchased it last year? and i hardly think its expensive given how much infrastructure there is / staff / snowmaking etc.

however i agree there should be someone at the designated chain fitting bay to help people who have no idea what they are doing - someone from hotham not hoys
 
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Claude Cat

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Clearly there still is an issue for vehicles that normal diamond pattern chains can't be fitted. And the solution is not snow tyres either.
Clearly there has been an issue with spider chains; is there any other options that punters that don't want to fit smaller wheels (seems like an expensive option for people that go once or twice a season). Eg the Michelin easy grips etc?
 

Hothski

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currawong said:
what's magical about the morning?

hotham road can have almost permanent ice on some sections during winter

This! Plus what about people arriving late at night?

Better signs and a public education campaign are needed.

Fine has always been there - if you are stupid enough to cop it then I say you deserve it.

Perhaps making it more difficult to pass the chain fitting bays would help - Cones and flashing lights on the road????
 
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teckel

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hongomania said:
look its really this simple.
buy / hire some chains. fit them if required. how did this turn into a 21 page discussion.
And that's what a lot of people have done - gone out and spent $600 on K-Summit chains, only to be told by Hotham that they won't allow those chains. And the chains they will allow can't be fitted to their car.
Only 14 pages for me.
 
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Skiddy85

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hongomania said:
look its really this simple.
buy / hire some chains. fit them if required. how did this turn into a 21 page discussion.

Because now some people can't hire/buy chains that they can legally fit. At all.

The anger is that for some people there is now no legal way to drive on that road from June to October.
 
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Ozzifutura

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Ditto: Have spent $600 + on a set of K Summits , that have worked no probelm, to find now they are illegal for this resort (was my resort of choice). Now the advice is to buy a 2nd set of wheels and winter tyres and then another set of chains to suit. so we are looking at an outlay of minumum 2K up to 4K depending how you go about doing it. When essentially there is no problem with K Summits (cannot vouch for other systems) and real problems are drivers, improper fitting of chains of ALL types and the way the chain fitting requirements (when to put on/off and checking same) are managed.
 

FlatLander

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Hothski said:
A Hazardous Area Endorsement, while appropriate for bus drivers and HV drivers, would be overkill for car drivers - a true example of over governance.

I think there are too many people looking for a conspiracy theory instead of accepting that there was an issue with people driving up the road last year (and in the past) in an unsafe way and something is being done about it.

Simply making the general public more aware about the potential issues the GAR throws up can only be a positive - I was talking more about signs and more of a visual presence along the road when chains were being fitted.

For me it doesn't impact - I own a set of diamond chains and my car accepts them. I also fit chains when required - I own a AWD car and don't see getting to the top of the mountain quicker than others or without chains as an achievement to gloat about - some do unfortunately.

I can understand the frustration of spider chain owners however the line needed to be drawn somewhere. I have asked before - how many people are really affected by this ruling? Proportionately, what are the numbers of Diamond Chain use compared to Spider Chains - considering that NO hire outlets hire anything but diamond chains.

I have little time for the RMB generally but I don't see them 'cutting off their nose to spite their own face'. I'm sure they put a bit of thought into this rule.

nicely put
 
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FlatLander

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hongomania said:
dossa5 said:
hongomania said:
look its really this simple.
buy / hire some chains. fit them if required. how did this turn into a 21 page discussion.

Maybe because of the exorbitant entry fees, lack of service and hidious decisions have finally set peeps off.

i thought my season pass was quite good value when i purchased it last year? and i hardly think its expensive given how much infrastructure there is / staff / snowmaking etc.

however i agree there should be someone at the designated chain fitting bay to help people who have no idea what they are doing - someone from hotham not hoys

So who should that be - what if chain fitting is outside of the resort boundary (very common). Who does it then RMB? Vic Roads staff, Hoys??

The RMB does not control chain signage on the GAR, the Vic Roads appointed contractor does, kindly paid for by the taxpayers of Victoria.
 
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"Eg the Michelin easy grips etc?"

Michelin easy grip is not a "snow chain".
Michelin easy grip is type of snow sock.
Michelin easy grip is a classified as a "Austrian Norm V5121 traction device" and like all snow socks, spider chains and ladder chains is not permitted to be used at Hotham

All 'made of metal' Rud, Konig and Thule snow chains, including their spider chain models, comply with Austrian Standard ONORM V5117 Snow chains for vehicles classes M1, N1, O1 O2 Requirements, testing, making of conformity for vehicles up 3.5 tonnes and ONORM V5119 Snow chains for vehicles classes N2, N3, M2, M3, O3, O4, O2 – Requirements, testing, marking of conformity for heavier vehicles.

Michelin easy grip, Auto sock, Rud Soft spike and other makes of snow socks are made to comply with Austrian Standard ONORM V5121.1 Wheel slide protection control devices for vehicles classes M1, N1, O1, O2 – Requirements, testing, marking of conformity.

Textile, composite, plastic or fabric snow socks, are not approved for use as a “snow chain†in Victoria for 2WD, 4WD or AWD vehicles or in NSW for 2WD vehicles.
In NSW a textile, composite, plastic or fabric snow sock can be used on any vehicle other than a 2WD because, at this time, there is no requirement to use any snow chain or “traction device†at all on these types of vehicles.
 

gettingtooold

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Having driven to Hotham in a white out (and like a previous poster had to stop the car to get out and actually feel the ground) it seems to me that Hotham's reaction may be due to frustration with driver over confidence contributing to major problems on the GAR. No bones about it, it can be a bastard of a road in bad conditions. Tend to agree that perhaps an over reaction but what alternative do they have ? One memory I do have driving up there in 2000 ( Day after the Olympic Torch went up and were coming down next day) went all the way to Blowhard and had a bus sliding sideways at us, pulled the pin and turned around. Massive traffic jam going down and the gate were still letting cars up. It certainly can be a one off driving experience in Oz. Hey, I'm one who can't drive there any more but I can sort of see where they are coming from.
 

cqen2l

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Must be lots of complaints going to the Hotham website; it's been down most of the day.
laugh.gif
 
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Claude Cat

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gettingtooold said:
Having driven to Hotham in a white out (and like a previous poster had to stop the car to get out and actually feel the ground) it seems to me that Hotham's reaction may be due to frustration with driver over confidence contributing to major problems on the GAR. No bones about it, it can be a bastard of a road in bad conditions. Tend to agree that perhaps an over reaction but what alternative do they have ? One memory I do have driving up there in 2000 ( Day after the Olympic Torch went up and were coming down next day) went all the way to Blowhard and had a bus sliding sideways at us, pulled the pin and turned around. Massive traffic jam going down and the gate were still letting cars up. It certainly can be a one off driving experience in Oz. Hey, I'm one who can't drive there any more but I can sort of see where they are coming from.
We went up the same day the torch came down in 2000. It was snowing in Harrietville.
A Nissan Patrol slid off the road half way up and was only just hanging over the edge. No chains.
Blocked traffic for hours.
 
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gareth_oau

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Given that Audis are a European vehicle and I'm guessing they might occasionally get a little bit of snow there, how do they manage, if those chains that Hotham have banned arent good enough, yet still get used in europe?
 

Astro66

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currawong said:
AstroSki66 said:
One person for 4 hours in the morning isn't going to blow the budget.

Seems more logical than allowing peeps to choose anywhere. I thought safety was the issue.

what's magical about the morning?

hotham road can have almost permanent ice on some sections during winter
90% of traffic would go in between 7 and 11am.

If 90% of traffic were stopped made to fit chains correctly in a designated chain bay, maybe you wouldn't find so many on the road that have fallen off. Regardless of their type.

This is what Perisher does.

Obviously, someone at the resort, could check peeps leaving after lunch.

Once again, what Perisher does.
 
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gettingtooold

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It was the same day. Had a day off and a few beers at the Snowline on Saturday on the deck and wearing shorts if I recall waiting for the torch to pass and snow on the same deck next morning. Absolute shit fight on the road and the only time I had to give up. That's the road.
 

Claude Cat

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gareth_oau said:
Given that Audis are a European vehicle and I'm guessing they might occasionally get a little bit of snow there, how do they manage, if those chains that Hotham have banned arent good enough, yet still get used in europe?

In Europe people fit winter tyres. Yes it's true.
 
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dossa5

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snowtyres said:
"Eg the Michelin easy grips etc?"

Michelin easy grip is not a "snow chain".
Michelin easy grip is type of snow sock.
Michelin easy grip is a classified as a "Austrian Norm V5121 traction device" and like all snow socks, spider chains and ladder chains is not permitted to be used at Hotham

All 'made of metal' Rud, Konig and Thule snow chains, including their spider chain models, comply with Austrian Standard ONORM V5117 Snow chains for vehicles classes M1, N1, O1 O2 Requirements, testing, making of conformity for vehicles up 3.5 tonnes and ONORM V5119 Snow chains for vehicles classes N2, N3, M2, M3, O3, O4, O2 – Requirements, testing, marking of conformity for heavier vehicles.

Michelin easy grip, Auto sock, Rud Soft spike and other makes of snow socks are made to comply with Austrian Standard ONORM V5121.1 Wheel slide protection control devices for vehicles classes M1, N1, O1, O2 – Requirements, testing, marking of conformity.

Textile, composite, plastic or fabric snow socks, are not approved for use as a “snow chain†in Victoria for 2WD, 4WD or AWD vehicles or in NSW for 2WD vehicles.
In NSW a textile, composite, plastic or fabric snow sock can be used on any vehicle other than a 2WD because, at this time, there is no requirement to use any snow chain or “traction device†at all on these types of vehicles.

The knowledge you have of all chains is extrodinary to say the least.

What experience do you have skiing- how many winters driving on snow ect. and experiences you have encountered, that you can pass on to us.
 
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Claude Cat

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AstroSki66 said:
currawong said:
AstroSki66 said:
One person for 4 hours in the morning isn't going to blow the budget.

Seems more logical than allowing peeps to choose anywhere. I thought safety was the issue.

what's magical about the morning?

hotham road can have almost permanent ice on some sections during winter
90% of traffic would go in between 7 and 11am.

If 90% of traffic were stopped made to fit chains correctly in a designated chain bay, maybe you wouldn't find so many on the road that have fallen off. Regardless of their type.

This is what Perisher does.

Obviously, someone at the resort, could check peeps leaving after lunch.

Once again, what Perisher does.

Remember GAR is a through road. People go through, not just to visit Hotham.
Also you're forgetting the traffic off the mountain.
Perisher is absolutely NOTHING like the GAR. It's not even remotely the same.
 
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Claude Cat

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gettingtooold said:
It was the same day. Had a day off and a few beers at the Snowline on Saturday on the deck and wearing shorts if I recall waiting for the torch to pass and snow on the same deck next morning. Absolute shit fight on the road and the only time I had to give up. That's the road.

It was madness, wasn't it. Probably the worst I've ever seen the road (but I'm sure there's been plenty of other instances).
 
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Hermannator

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As hinted by others, no meaningful answers to legitimate questions after many pages of tripe...

Seems the only solution for those with wide/low profile tyres is buy a set (actually really only need 2) of smaller, narrower steel rims with the right stud pattern (e.g. 5x112 for an '04 Audi A4).

If precious about your handling, yet you're a hardcore Hotham skier, put the two steels in the boot and pre-fit chains, then swap them over at bottom of hill.

Else put the two steels on the front wheels of your AWD and drive all the way from Melb.

If that's too hard, you're a gaper.

Let me know if you've got any better ideas until Hotham get their head out of the sand and quit the knee-jerking.
 

gettingtooold

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The GAR has always been a bit of a beast from Harrietville. When it was gravel with a dry spell in winter the dust was so bad you had to back off from the car in front as you couldn't see. On the next day it was white out material and you cant see again. Back then we only had ladder chains and got up there every time without any drama so I guess it must have had something to do with driver ability rather than chain type or fitting.(Don't recall ever putting them on) So maybe driver education rather than other solutions should be addressed ?
 

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Claude Cat said:
gareth_oau said:
Given that Audis are a European vehicle and I'm guessing they might occasionally get a little bit of snow there, how do they manage, if those chains that Hotham have banned arent good enough, yet still get used in europe?

In Europe people fit winter tyres. Yes it's true.

many would, and many wouldn't, so what about those who wouldnt?
 
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cqen2l

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gareth_oau said:
Given that Audis are a European vehicle and I'm guessing they might occasionally get a little bit of snow there, how do they manage, if those chains that Hotham have banned arent good enough, yet still get used in europe?

It's all about the tyres Gareth, not the car. Even your AWD with the wrong tyres will leave you in a heap of trouble.
 
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cqen2l

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gettingtooold said:
Astro should perhaps try driving the Harrietville/Hotham road on a bad day. Serious stuff. It is not a flat drive.
Astro is only in here to troll. He is staying at Perisher, the Falls Creek of NSW. Praise <insert your deity here>.
 
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teckel

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It's a shame that the performance of winter tyres both cornering and braking on both dry and wet roads when the temperature is over 7 degrees is up to 15% poorer than on summer tyres. So, ST would have us all with tyres not so safe for 98% of winter driving, so that they are safer when we go to the snow?
 

Astro66

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cqen2l said:
gettingtooold said:
Astro should perhaps try driving the Harrietville/Hotham road on a bad day. Serious stuff. It is not a flat drive.
Astro is only in here to troll. He is staying at Perisher, the Falls Creek of NSW. Praise <insert your deity here>.
Bro, I've been 100% on topic in here.

I also have posted that I spend a week at Mt Beauty (Skiing Falls) with my family ever couple of years, but like to do a day at Hotham, rather than the whole time at Falls. Last time we were there, I carried Ladder Chains.

So feel free to express your opinion about Hotham. But I recommend you Google check words before name calling.
 
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cqen2l

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gettingtooold said:
Astro should perhaps try driving the Harrietville/Hotham road on a bad day. Serious stuff. It is not a flat drive.

Good point, the 500 mts you need chains to reach Perisher past Smiggins can be a harrowing experience.
 
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Alfred14

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FlatLander said:
The RMB does not control chain signage on the GAR, the Vic Roads appointed contractor does, kindly paid for by the taxpayers of Victoria.

Which goes back to the point at the start that the RMB made the decision to only allow diamond pattern chains without consulting VicRoads and when you read into it Vicroads have no legislation in regards to snow chains it all comes under the RMB legislation.
 
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