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State Minister Missing on Feathertop

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by CarveMan, Aug 31, 2009.

  1. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    Choppers aren't exactly cheap, and there are a lot of other expenses too.

    I wouldn't mind if he was adequately prepared for the hike, but clearly he wasn't, and only has himself to blame. As far as I'm concerned he should personally foot the bill.
     
    #251 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  2. teckel

    teckel Not a Loser Ski Pass: Gold

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    According to one of the guys who stayed in Fed hut the same night as Holding, he didn't have snow pegs, so couldn't erect his tent properly. He was wanting to try out his new tent.
     
  3. trappers

    trappers Safety not guaranteed Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    [​IMG] slipnslide perhaps you should bother to read the rest of this thread ... Snowblowy made a good post a little while ago to silly calls for him to repay costs incurred like this.
     
    #253 trappers, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  4. Apresski

    Apresski Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    The only person making mention of party politics is you. I would be equally critical if Ted Baillieu did the same thing. Skiing in the relative safety of a ski resort is hardly comparable to hiking off into the wilderness alone.
     
    #254 Apresski, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  5. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    [​IMG] trappers perhaps you should bother to think rationally - and consider the fact that many other people who act irresponsibly and get into trouble are forced to pay for their own stupidity. Is that "silly" too? Well, where do you draw the line?
     
    #255 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  6. trappers

    trappers Safety not guaranteed Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    So you pay your taxes, you provide funding to the SES, VicPOL, AFP various S&R organisations despite 99% of the population never needing them ... now you are saying that in addition to that, we should all have to pay for using these services when we need them??? Talk about double dipping!

    If it is a foreigner who has never paid for these services, then hell yeah ... they should pay for them. But he has already paid, as we all have.
     
  7. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    At this point in time do any of us really know how prepared or experienced he was? IMO he was not too experienced in snow/ice, given the apparent lack of ice/snow related gear, but at the moment that is based on speculative information. Stuff happens, get over it and move on.

    AndyR, good to hear they had people with so much experience and knowledge of the terrain doing the work, and not just some big city drama queen SES members.
     
  8. Heli

    Heli A Local

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    You do have to pay for Air Ambulance: it is usually part of your Ambulance insurance cover, but if you have no cover, you will get a bill.
     
    #258 Heli, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2013
  9. sidetrack

    sidetrack One of Us

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    Well done Andy, enjoy that beer. But Im guessing you will enjoy the sleep even more.
     
  10. smitty484

    smitty484 Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hahahaha apparently the minister has already spoken with TT. What a load!
     
  11. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Fixed [​IMG]
     
    #261 Vermillion, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2013
  12. D-eye

    D-eye Photographer and skier Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    nope, it was "luckiest man alive" and "bizarre rescue"
     
    #262 D-eye, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  13. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I would have thought that at least once while he was out there by himself he was thinking 'man when this is over im going to be everywhere'
     
    #263 Vermillion, Sep 1, 2009
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  14. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    More woke than thou.
    Vermillion, I think the answer to your question is that walking and climbing over snow and ice requires totally different skills to hiking.

    Personally, I would have probably walked up to the saddle above Federation Hut where the junction with the tracks to the Summit and (south) Razorback tracks is. If the conditions were pretty blowy or the snow was very icy or there was avalanche potentially, I would have turned back or just gone to the top of Molly Hill. I've never done this sort of thing solo, but lots of sensible and experienced people do, I'm just a bit more cautious than most people I know.

    Even if someone has good hiking skills (and I don't think a guided walk on the Kokoda Track and doing the Puffing Billy run give you them), those skills aren't what you need in the snow, especially above the treeline.

    I've run quite a few trips introducing people to this sort of stuff and the trick is not to give them information overload. On the West Ridge of Buller trip I ran 10 days ago (4 people from this forum were among the participants), I think I got it about right. People have to confident about using crampons (and be careful not to slice their leg open with them by slightly adjusting the way they walk) and at least know how to use their ice axe as:
    - a walking axe
    - a climbing axe
    - using their axe to self arrest and instinctively move it into position as they start falling
    - The ability to use the flat end of the axe for step cutting is useful, but usually not important.

    In addition, if you're running a trip or doing it alone, you have to be able to work out:
    - Potential avalanche danger
    - Be able to read what the weather will be like for the next few hours.
    - Navigation. High end navigation skills are important and you should be aware that even the best can be disoriented or blown of course without realising it.
    - Be someone who is happy to turn back, it's really dangerous to have someone who is afraid of "losing face" by not accomplishing everything that was planned for or even just a macho fool who overestimates their own capabilities. You have to be very conservative.
     
    #264 Bogong, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  15. smitty484

    smitty484 Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    HAHAHA TT is a joke. This story is a joke.
     
  16. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    I pay taxes, so if I acted like a complete goose at the snow and had to be found, rescued and choppered to a specialist hospital for reconstructive surgery should I expect everything to be taxpayer funded (it would still cost far less that this rescue operation)? After all, it's "good training" for the chopper pilots, rescuers, surgeons and hospital staff, right trappers?

    As I said, where do you draw the line?
     
    #266 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  17. scottski

    scottski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I would much rather my taxes go to funding the rescue of Tony Bullimore or Tim the minister for something and the other few odd people who go missing taking an adventure here or there than fund the pack of lazy drunken smoking fat slobs sitting in front of their TV's stuffing their kids faces full of fat and starch.

    There got that of my chest.

    If the Vic govt wants to fund some wilderness risk prevention program. Do it with the encouragment for people to get out there. Perhaps Tim can lead the Cabinet out to Feathertop in summer for a community cabinet meeting.
     
  18. sidetrack

    sidetrack One of Us

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    So you have never been anywhere out bush unprepaired? I bet you have and its just been dumb luck that you didnt twist an ankle or slip and bang your head. I have never taken ropes with me when climbing the viking so I guess I was unprepaied.


    I guess he has a bit more experiance now. I would also venture that given enough time he would have poped out at Harrietville just near Andys place and told a great story of an epic he'd had.

    The guy made a little mistake and was dealing with it.
     
    #268 sidetrack, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  19. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    What gives you or anyone else the right to decide specifically which stupid irresponsible activities people should be rescued from courtesy of the taxpayer?
     
    #269 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  20. scottski

    scottski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well , I'm a Taxpayer and I think this is a democracy. Let me check. Oh it's just the internet sorry I was wrong
     
  21. scottski

    scottski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Can I just ask you the same question ?.
     
    #271 scottski, Sep 1, 2009
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  22. scottski

    scottski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Actually slipnslide. Next time your injured skiing you won't be surprised when ski patrol tell you. I think you injured yourself stupidly. Please sign here for the cost of your transport. If not you will have to crawl out yourself.
     
  23. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    I don't have the right to decide, however some people (such as yourself) obviously think they do.
     
    #273 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  24. sidetrack

    sidetrack One of Us

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    What he said. Your doing the exact same thing. If you want to measure it on money we could save the country billions by banning smoking than banning people from going outdoors. Ridiculous comment.
     
    #274 sidetrack, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  25. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    Last time I injured myself it was through no fault of mine, but I had to bear the financial burden of my injuries myself.
     
    #275 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  26. scottski

    scottski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    And so you should ( apart from our universal health care system ) My point is if you injure yourself stupidly, are you happy to not be rescued until you get your credit card out. ?
     
    #276 scottski, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  27. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    Oh, I see. So in your opinion the taxpayer should only have to foot the bill for "boys own adventure" type expenses, and for everything else we're on our own? There you go deciding for everyone else specifically which stupid irresponsible activities people should be rescued from courtesy of the taxpayer

    Absolutely - provided everyone else in the country does too.
     
    #277 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  28. sidetrack

    sidetrack One of Us

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    [/quote]
    Last time I injured myself it was through no fault of mine, but I had to bear the financial burden of my injuries myself. [/quote]

    Well then you didnt injure yourself someone injured you. Why did you have to pay?
     
  29. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    How long is this crap going to go on for?
    scottski merely said where he would like his taxes to go!
    He doesn't actually get to decide.

    In the same way as slipnslide doesn't make the decision on making users pay!
    (thank christ)
     
    #279 Charlie, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  30. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    So it's also your opinion Charlie, that the taxpayer should only have to foot the bill for "boys own adventure" type expenses, and for everything else we're on our own?
     
  31. sidetrack

    sidetrack One of Us

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    Geez I just asked a question. Plus Ive only posted about 4 times in this thread so far, Its been busy at work.
     
  32. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hmmmm, your reading skills are certainly lacking, I said nothing of the sort!
    [​IMG]
     
    #282 Charlie, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2013
  33. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    I didn't say he did. I inferred that he thinks he should.
     
    #283 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  34. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Alot of people, big city drama queen SES members included, volunteer their time for these situations, and although I am joking with the drama queen thing, many of them actually enjoy it to a certain point. Whats the harm in supporting these people with a bit of taxpayers money? Bloody tax payers money pays for a heap of crap I couldnt care less about, but I dont mind because maybe its something that other people care about, like schools.
     
  35. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    You inferred that my argument was "crap", and appear to support scottski's position. I'm capable of putting two and two together. How about you?
     
    #285 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
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  36. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    My point is that it's a grossly unjust system. Media-friendly "boys own adventure" rescues are taxpayer funded, but remedying other acts of personal stupidity are not.
     
    #286 slipnslide, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  37. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Gee some people, if they are people and not some sort of computer matrix designed to find the question, get wound up about bugger all around here. [​IMG]
     
    #287 telecrag, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2013
  38. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Like what?
     
  39. slipnslide

    slipnslide Hard Yards

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    Personally, I'd prefer to live in a society where people accept both the responsibility for and consequences of their own actions. It disappoints me that some of you clearly think otherwise.
     
  40. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I would prefer to live in a society of risk taking, athletic goddesses.
     
  41. sli1

    sli1 One of Us

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    Last time I injured myself it was through no fault of mine, but I had to bear the financial burden of my injuries myself. [/quote]

    Well then you didnt injure yourself someone injured you. Why did you have to pay? [/quote]

    Actually Sidetrack, there are many situations where you can injured by someone else's stupidity and have to pay yourself. Ie racing anything would be one example - cleaned up from behind, vehicle damage, months in hospital - your problem.

    Anyway, going down this path does not add anything to this thread or for or against on the argument you are having with slipnslide.
     
    #291 sli1, Sep 1, 2009
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  42. sli1

    sli1 One of Us

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    An idealogical argument over user pays vs tax payer pays won't be solved here.

    If you want to rule that the user pays if they are stupid, you will never get anywhere. Try defining stupid. Example

    I go out to Feathertop with tent, sleeping bag, crampons, ice axe, food for 3 days.
    Someone please define appropriate sleeping bag - was it rated for the conditions, was it old and had lost its properties ?

    Were the crampons appropriate - did they even fit my shoes or were they borrowed from a mate as some sort of false security blanket ?

    Was the ice axe something I made in the shed ? What standard was it made to ?

    Lets say all my gear was bought yesterday. Its perfectly appropriate. The weather forecast is crap but I'm going a day trip and I have all the right gear. How do you know someone is competent using it ?
    Define "experienced",
    Define "competent"

    The going gets Icy and I get the crampons out of my pack and accidentally drop them. They slide down the hill. 2 meters. I take a step to get them and slide 300 meters, in trying to get my axe out I lose my back pack. I'm now lost without my gear.

    Am I stupid for going out there and need to pay for S&R? I was well prepared..........
     
  43. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sheez, I'm glad I don't venture into convo.....the peaceful serenity of backcountry has been well and truly trashed.

    Well done all S&R involved, your efforts are always appreciated. Thanks
     
  44. trappers

    trappers Safety not guaranteed Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes you lot are fortunate [​IMG] Unfortunately the Trolls occasionally wander out from under the bridge [​IMG]
     
    #294 trappers, Sep 1, 2009
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  45. robl

    robl Hard Yards

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    I have mostly followed all this, but I may have missed some stuff.
    I guess his sleeping bag and tent etc. were at the hut.
    And he ventured forth with day pack incuding a "space blanket".
    Today I moved a space blanket to my regular day gear.
    Are they good things?
     
  46. weerab

    weerab One of Us

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    #296 weerab, Sep 1, 2009
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  47. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well done S&R people.
    In this day and age, the cost of an EPIRB is not a luxury, particularly for a state minister, $600 compared to the rescue $$$'s!!!!!!!!!, it's a no brainer on a safety level for the individual and rescuers or on an economic level.
    An ice axe and some instep crampons and the experience to use them would have been helpful too.
    Luckily it's ended happily and all can learn from his mistakes.
    A society wrapped in cotton wool with no adventure is stagnant.
    Just my 2 cents worth.
     
  48. AlanD

    AlanD Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes they are worth carrying. Mine lives in my first aid kit which goes with me if I'm doing daywalks, longer walks, bushwalking etc. I also used to carry another in my caving helmet.
     
    #298 AlanD, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  49. D-eye

    D-eye Photographer and skier Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I was under the impression that the tent and sleeping bag were in that big pack he was carrying and he used the space blanket to signal the helicopter as it was big, reflective and easy to see.
     
    #299 D-eye, Sep 1, 2009
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  50. solosnowshoer

    solosnowshoer First Runs

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    No snowshoes/crampons/ice axe and no snow pegs. I guess they just don't cover that stuff on Kokoda, not really necessary now that the equatorial glaciers have melted....
     
    #300 solosnowshoer, Sep 1, 2009
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