Separate names with a comma.
We have a vibrant community here conversing about all sorts of non-snow topics such as music, sport, politics and technology. Simply register to reveal all our Après topics.
NOTE: This notice may be closed.
Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by snowgum, Apr 26, 2018.
The M+S symbol on tyres is very misleading.
It’s a declaration from the tyre manufacturer that the product can operate in mud and snow better than their regular models. However, there is no performance standard or traction/stopping tests to pass as the M+S designation refers only to the tread pattern.
You will find the M+S symbol on off-road, All-Terrain (AT) tyres and on many ‘summer’ all season tyres. Even some high speed rated (Y) summer tyres may have this designation. It says nothing about the tyres rubber compound and how it will perform on snow, slush and ice.
Tyres with M+S marking are not associated with any mandatory performance test and there is no performance guarantee associated with M+S marked tyres. The M+S marking are based on a tyre’s geometry and not how well it does on tests actually driving in mud or snow.
Tyres marketed as AT Tyres (All-Terrain/Mud-Terrain/Off Road) are not winter tyres even though some may display the 3PMSF symbol.
This is easy to understand as AT tyres have little, or no, siping. Sipings are the thin slits across a tread surface, that improve traction in snow and icy conditions.
Since the ATR ‘s I’ve moved on to Mickey T’s ,Baja Claws , more 4x4 orientated , in deep snow and mud they are the bomb !! , on the highway not so much.. sounds like WW2 bomber, have to turn the radio up.. way up , but off road
3PMSF and plenty of sniping on the Falken At3W. Nokia they are not but with discretion and a soft right foot they are going fine. Quiet as well. Biggest issue is the unweighted rear end and tray.
Anyone got any experience with these?
Looking for something for my Forester. I do very low km and prepared to trade off some noise and city comfort for grip.
Thanks in advance (hopefully).
y2k did an off road course a couple of years ago and the instructor highly rated them. But no discussion about snow driving. Just dirt/offroad.
Hankook dynapro All Terrain tyres work for me. They are a bit noisier than street tyres are on the highway but on my AWD they are a game changer off road esp. in snow and mud.
You probably want the "little snowflake in the mountain symbol" as per advice we are often given here.
Do these tyres have this?
If not look elsewhere.
I had the AT3 few years back on Mitsi Challenger.
Where excellent on dirt mud slush and snow. Only criticism was they bit hard n slippy on wet bitumen.
Latest generations I believe have addressed this.
Went from the Coopers ^ to the Hankook Dynapro .
Bit softer compound , more grippy on the black top.
Very happy and still driving on them.
On another Pajero Sport I am currently running with these.
Bit more suited for Highway and firmer dirt driving.
So far so good in all conditions , including some decent axle deep snow.
Coopers you will get better wear.
So just matching the tyre with the driving you will do, as I'm sure you have, I reckon you'll be happy.
Re-fitting next time I will go either the Coopers and the Hankooks.
Now that Cooper seem to have sorted their previous grip issues on the wet black top I would probably lean towards them again.
They do ride a bit harder than the Hankooks tho IMO.
Just see who is doing the best deal $ at the time.
Rodeos on the Maxxis and they are brilliant off road ....
Remarkably good grip on wet bitumen too..
Tyres are of softer compound than some other makes so get better grip ...maybe wear out a little faster.
Tyre noise is not a problem for rodeo diesel.
The grip provided off road as Mr T says “A Game Changer”
So much of the time we get by in 2 WD.
Team Leader was sceptical at first about grip around town on tram tracks etc in the wet but I cannot fault these tyres.They hang on!
Oh these are Maxxi bravos mud snow .
I went some Toyo Open COuntry on my van earlier in the year. First test on the alpine way and i'd say they failed. It wa sslippery but i was losing traction all over the place and can't remeber that happening with the coopers i had on previously. Going to try a Nitto Grappler on the new Ute.
Falken Wild Peak AT3W. Have a look.
Anybody like the idea of rear aggressive mud snow tyres and less aggressive front ones?
On an AWD car such as a Subaru or an older RAV 4 such as mine ( 2008 model full time AWD) the tyres must be exactly matching or the handling of the car is seriously compromised. So when I change a tyre I must change the set . I do have a spare tyre which is a highway tyre fixed to the back of the car but that is a merely 'get out of jail' ticket and not a big issue. I would certainly get the HANKOOK DYNAPRO All terrain tyres again. They do have a snowflake symbol on the tyre walls. I have had them for a year now and they are wearing well.
We could set up the track into Keppels as a testing track for off road grip in the mud as soon as the barriers reopen around Melb Cup!An agressive open lug pattern ganna go well provided driver has aggressive attitude also!Suburas may not fair so well on this though even with snow flakey tyres .....and those Nokians will just just dig themselves into the mud!
Back in the day we did that on our 2WD cars. A very aggressive cheap farm tread on the back and normal tyres on the front ..... why .... cheap traction for the winter season only used locally. Worked well with appropriate driving technique, power on the up, slow on the down, use that torque. I used chains twice in 8 years and that was every morning in winter driving up the hill to work (NSW)
These days .... police state and slow moving traffic jams mean slow moving uphill traction is required with the use of torque and momentum killed off.
I took my car up there in early Nov. 2018 after the winter gates opened and it was a bit hairy and very muddy and wet. Quite the sphincter clenching contest really!.
Theory put to me I syou don't want the big mud tyre tread.
They are designed to clean them selves out.
For snow the tighter treads actually hold the snow in and then you achieve snow on snow grip.
Old mate should be here soon with some trade knowledge and a not so soft sell.
will check the Hankooks for snowflake when I see them later today.
The gurl has taken the vehicle to school.
Pretty happy for her to be driving on them in all conditions.
She'll be doing her first solo drives up the snow this year , tho has done many drives me with thru her L's and many years before hearing the talk....
I have heard that gnarly Mud tyres are not much use in the snow. I did not have to fit chains once last season with my XC skiing trips and there were days when it was puking with snow and numpties were sliding off the road willy nilly but with cautious low gear driving , no braking to speak of and the good tyres on the AWD , overall , things went well.
IIRC Perisher have the Cooper AT3 and SRX on their Hilux utes.
• All-Terrain Tyre
An off-road all-season tyre that is designed & marketed for year-round use. It is made of a hard rubber compound with little siping and is not winter or snow tyre but may have M+S mark or even the 3PMSF Mountain Snowflake Alpine symbol.
While certain all-terrain tyres have the traction characteristics to achieve a reasonably high level of straight-line snow traction, they remain a compromise as compared to true winter tyres in all other winter snow & icy driving conditions.
• Off-road Tyre
An all-terrain all-season tyre that is designed & marketed for year-round use. It is made of a hard rubber compound with little siping and is not winter or snow tyre but may have M+S mark or even the 3PMSF Mountain Snowflake Alpine symbol.
While certain off-road tyres have the traction characteristics to achieve a reasonably high level of straight-line snow traction, they remain a compromise as compared to true winter tyres in all other winter snow & icy driving conditions.
Softer compound is better for alpine roads but costs you in the summer.
Airing down increases the grip area but you need to carry a compressor to air up usually.
Snow doesn't bond to the bitumen or the dirt so I see no point in aggressive lugs to grip the snow.
The critical grip situation is ice and that's a job for chains obviously.
OK. I've backed your judgement and just ordered a set.
Oh shit .... nah I have been happy with them, city, wet roads, freeway, paddock, Thredbo road whiteout blizzard, Guthega potholes, Barry way in the heat, first tracks in 20cm on Eucumbene road. They are wearing well. I found most of the 4WD tyre recommendations in Australia came from the "north country" and followed a fairly boorish narrative. After my tyre guy (surf mate) recommended Falken I went looking on USA and Canada sites for comments. The Bridgestones that where on the truck when I bought it where very slippery on wet tar and noisy. Instant difference when I fitted the Falkens.
Hope they work for you too.
To be honest the tread pattern looks very similar to the ones i had already picked - but the falkens come in the heavier duty sidewall (higher load rating) than the others. Euiping this ute with some outback travel in mind it made sense to go the heavier tyre.
I was just at Bob Jane having new set of BF Goodrich All Terrain T/A fitted to my Defender.....been running them on it for years and I swear by them for wear and they are "snowflake" certified. I asked the store manager about all season "snowflake" tyres for my wife's Forester and he recommended Pirelli AT Plus. Just did a bit of research, they look the goods and reasonably priced!
Note.....gotta ring around for prices. Bob Jane were $50 a corner cheaper for the BF T/As than the quoted "on sale" price from Tyrepower.
what size and what price for the BFGs?
255 70 16 $295
So now your suggesting that the 3PMSF Mountain Snowflake Alpine is not a true standard....tyres either meet the standard or they don't. If tyres that meet the standard don't perform to the standard requirements then the standard is rubbish.
Of course a dedicated winter tyre will perform better than an all season 3PMSF tyre on snow just as a soft compound slick will perform better on a dry road than a treaded tyre..... but surely you wouldn't suggest putting slicks on your car for driving on dry highways.
Bob Jane do a good price on the BF T/As. I went shopping around multiple different outlets in Melbourne and BoB Jane came up the cheapest in the end.
So what you’re saying is the Snowflake in a mountain icon or the m&s monikers basically mean jack shit because any tyre maker can chuck it on ? There’s no standard / certification they need to apply to ?
Like maccas slapping Michelin stars on their “restaurants”’
Edit : I’m not attacking btw just asking
My understanding is the M+S is more about tread performance . The Snowflake in the mountain is about grip of the compound on ice.
My understanding is the same..... the 3PMSF is a rubber industry standard regarding how the rubber performs under 7C.
That's $95 a corner more than I paid for the Falkens fitted
One of the things to consider in regards to dedicated winter snow tyres as opposed to all season snow tyres is that although the winter specific will likely outperform for the few kms of a trip on snow, the all season will likely out perform for the hundreds kms on blacktop that make up a typical ski trip for most people.
I paid $300 each yesterday. Hope you didn't get the 10 ply for $200.
Yeah, Falkens look great. I've been running BG T/As for so long with zero problems I'm loathe to change.
3PMSF + 4WD should just about go anywhere with respective driving application.
I like the idea that my vehicle has nice falken tyres (said quickly sounds like "nice farken tyres"). Reminds me of that Fugen construction company. They had nice Fugen utes.
The bottom line truth right there folks ^
I just went a pair of Bridgestone Duelers ATs on the Everest, OEM's still on front (long story re bull bar wheel alignment rookie). Anyway will see how they go, had 2 sets of Coopers and 1 set of Mickeys on the Pathfinder. But combo of wallet management and trying something different brought the change, will see how they go.
I get it. Last lot of coopers i bought were $390 each. Little bit bigger size than standard and all of a sudden you've spent an extra $500 for nothing.
$300 sounds like money well spent.
Watch those side walls with sharp sticks that are anchored and don’t roll as you drive over them.
Hence my "trial" with the Hankook Dynapro .
So far so good as above.
I think any of the reputable manufacturers are pretty much on their game , and the tech is pretty similar simply because they have by now figured what works and what doesn't for the varying degrees of all-rounder type AT tyres.
Interesting to keep posted on how the Faulken ' s go over time.
On that point, I am mindfull that tyres do " harden " as they age so performance also deteriorates with time not just km.
BIL just turned up, his retired grazier adventure rig is good to go on Goodrich K0. His tip, army auctions 4 tyre lots @ $400 GVM 5t cruising speed .... 70km/h