tele bindings upgrade

mr

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Ok. I've got a tele setup with Outtabounds, Excursions & Riva 3's. I am pretty happy with it as an all-round and quite a light setup, but as my steeps skiing (very) slowly improves i am thinking that a stiffer binding will assist (without buying fatter skiis or heavier boots). I probably ski 70% or more of my skiing beyond lifted terrain (all in Australia only) but i look more now for runs than i used to. I can ski hotham dark blues on a good day, but i am generally a pretty mellow skiier and maybe get 10-20 days a year on the snow.

This binding upgrade will obviously come with a weight burden affecting tourability. I dont really understand at what point of tele bindings release kits and riser plates are needed or desirable (i have come from the skinny side of skiing), and I dont have a release kit ATM. I've had a look at the G3 targa hardwires which seem ok but then theres an adaptor to adapt them to 'standard' release kits. I am concerned too much stuff down there will cost alot and add weight.

Any thoughts on other bindings that are stiffer than rivas but not excessively weighty? If you reckon i should just get better on my rivas say so, because my wallet, my touring and my partner and kids will thank you. Maybe the perfect all-round rig is not really out there, just all-round skiiers.

Thanks
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surveyorcam

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Carve Plates and Chilli bindings maybe....

Releasable will add $$ and weight. If you are not skiing particularly aggressively you might not need them.
 

mr

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Thanks, yeh maybe chillis are the go.

Carve plates = riser plates? ie little shims under bindings.

As for releasable this is the bit i dont really get. I think i do like that my rivas pop off on really big stacks. I imagine chillis are less likely to do this. I'd hate to bugger my knees.

Maybe i could put little plates under my rivas first as a cheap option.
 

surveyorcam

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Sounds like releasable might be the go then.

Someone here will be able to give you some advice on what sort.

I have 7tm's, which aren't that heavy but most people on this forum seem to hate them.
 

skifree

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Nothing wrong with the Riva 3. Except like all things with moving parts it will wear out and the supply of spare parts is limited.

In fact there is simply not enough wrong with a Riva 3 to suggest spending the upgarde money on telemark lessons to get the most out of the rig and to reduce the falls from happening.

I suggest if touring is your main thing and you really want to upgrade your binding keep your Riva 3 and wait until the next round of bindings get here with touring mode. This will be offered by;

- BD with the O1
- G3 with the Targa Ascent - this would be my prime suggestion for your rig.
- Rottefella with the R8 Tour

of course the Hamerhead already does this but it is a fiddle, some would argue is a mroe performance binding than above. But it is a personal feel thing.
As does the right version of the 7TM as you have noted. But very skiers I have spoken too actually like the feel of the 7TM. But try it if you are interested in it's other features. It seems to work ok.

As for release spend the money on telemark lessons.

For any more performance you are into plate bindings maybe depending on your view of performance.
 

mr

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Thanks Skifee, MBK and surveyorcam. Sounds like I'll just practice harder, get more lessons on steeps.

I have been blown away at how heavy some other rigs i've picked up are and still like my featherweight setup.

Touring has been my thing, and still is, but i kept getting surprised at how addictive taking on steeper stuff is.

'Focus on technique, not gear' is my kinda talk.

Sounds like your pretty skeptical of the need for release kits skifree.......at what point are they needed?

Thanks again, M
 

PK Sawd

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I skied RivaII bindings on some K2 Piste Off skis, 97 model with a bit of shape (for those days) and did so for 3/4 seasons. I'm not a heavyweight (66Kg) but I skied these hard and found the binding adequate. I know heavier skiers have broken the tabs but it was never an issue for me. I also have only used older generation plastic boots that are not as monstrously stiff as some of the newer ones and are generally less likely to chew bindings or be chewed by them.

You can do plenty on that binding as is. I had no riser on the K2's (I did occasionally wing out) but prefer the riser I now have on my Atomics. There is a vast difference in sidecut so it makes a lot more sense. Get out there and ski.
 

surveyorcam

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If you creep up on your limits slowly then it is unlikely you will have a stack where you will injure yourself.

If your are in the habit of skiing way too fast and too hard for your ability and conditions then releasable bindings are the go.

I'm probably at the conservative end of the scale and would have maybe 1 or 2 stacks a year where I actually get the bindings to release. On those occassions I've been happy to have the ski come off.

I'm a big wrap for doing more on less and focusing on personal ability rather than focusing on gear freakiness.
 

skifree

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I do not think release is required except perhaps in avy country. But that is outside my experience to comment on.

The injury issues with telemark gear are different to Apline. Alpine rigid except people parts. Therefore the people parts break. Telemark gear has flex in the boot, binding and combination. This provides some protection in a prang. This is well exampled on one of the pic of the day on telemarktips this week. And many people do actually ultimately pop out of their telemark rigs anyhow if they are adjusted correctly.

The Apline folks have done more than one study and come up with the finding that the biggest cause for injury was not knowing how to ski the conditions (in the broadest sense) as the biggest risk factor followed by release not working. Therefore learn to ski better and maintain a well serviced and fitted rig.

Yes I have done a knee, just short of requiring the knife. At the time if I had a physical job the docs would have recomended the cut and re-glue. So I do not hold with the "I have done a knee and want to protect it" arguments for release. But I digress into a contentious area.

Just read a good report about the Telebulldog. Might be an interesting choice to look at as a replacement binding.
 
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mr

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Thanks skifree, contention is ok. I am new enough to telemarking to have only skiied on one binding (one boot, one ski) and cant really work out where release kits are needed beyond the obvious avy angle. Obviously opinions differ. Spose when my knee goes i'll know where that point is.......
 

skifree

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Not that I can talk mr marx, the gf has big issues with the number of skis, bindings and stuff about the house.
 

art

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Not too many people have answered the releasable part of your question yet. My guess is that is because most people havent used them.

I had the volie release system on my last skis and opted to not have them this time around. Mostly because on average i release 2 times a year and 50% of the time the release system broke.

when do you need a release system: its personal preference, skiing style/ability and what you think your body can take.

Personally ive resisted going to boots any stiffer then t3s as i think that stiff boots without a release system is asking for trouble. I dont think binding choice is such a determining factor as they all will hold your foot in the same way through most stacks. no proof on these things just my personal view.
 

T7

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art said:
Not too many people have answered the releasable part of your question yet. My guess is that is because most people havent used them.

Personally ive resisted going to boots any stiffer then t3s as i think that stiff boots without a release system is asking for trouble. I dont think binding choice is such a determining factor as they all will hold your foot in the same way through most stacks. no proof on these things just my personal view.
Very few studies have been done on relesable tele bindings, and the ones that have prolly have too small a sample size and are probably easily discredited. But they do point to the relationship between telemark injuries and equipment in a counterintuitive way.

Those studies suggest that most telemark injuries occur in situations when the skier has lost control of the rear ski. These stidies also showed a reduction in knee injuries in skiers on burlier equipment. They concluded that bigger boots, and more active bindings gave skiers more control over the rear ski and thus reduced the rate of injury.

There has still been no study to my knowledege that releasable tele bindings reduce the injury rate. But if the studies are correct and releasable bindings give you more confidence to control your rear ski more, then they may well save your knee.

I believe that if you feel you need releasable bindings you need them, as skiing is as much a confidence and a mental sport as it is a physical one. If you don't feel you need them then the current studies don't suggest that they will help reduce your risks of an injury.

But as Skifree said, avy terrain is a whole different kettle of fish, a situation I have very limited experience in.
 
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surveyorcam

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In avy terrain I I don't know whether I would wait until the avy removes my skis or try to undo the bindings myself in a kind of frantic frenzy type arrangement. Leashes in avy terrain bad idea.
 

PK Sawd

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Chances are you will never have time.

Yeah, I've skied with releasables, Skyhoys and Voile's and the Rottefellas too. Pre-realeases annoyed the heck out of me, as did trying to relocate the release plate varieties with snow stuck underneath the plate. Jump turns landing with neither ski remaining attached to the boot was just plain disastrous! But I suspect one of the reasons people are hesitant to comment is we would not like to be the one to say "Yeah, go without them" and then read the story about the person's blown ACL a few months later! It has to be a personal decision, made with full knowledge of available information and possible consequences.

As interesting as the above mentioned studies are, the discussion should probably not go beyond the first sentence.
 

surveyorcam

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Fair enough.

I agree:

-pre-releases annoying.

-putting ski back on annoying. Especially in steep unstable snow with a heavy pack on.

-no one wants to commit to advice that may lead to injury.

-Yup, it's a personal choice that no one else can make for you.
 

mr

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What does pre-releasable mean - the bindings drop out somehow preempting the stack?
 

John Deere

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Why do releasable tele bindings with brakes still have dog leashes??

Or was the guy I was skiing with just paranoid about losing his skis?
 

mr

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Riser plates, release kits with brakes, release kit adaptor kits, pre-release...yeh its all too much. Think i'll stick to my squeaky rivas and rope leash.....sorry telemarx, you'll have to support the small companies building krytonite and titanium tele bindings on yer own! Thanks for the advice.
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mr

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I think maybe i have now transcended the desire to buy any more hiking and skiing gear, i am totally satisfied with every bit of gear i have......now, maybe if i could only afford that new sail
 

skifree

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mr, bear in mind my comments about wear and the Riva 3. I would suggest you consider and budget for a repalcement and a new ski. Cos they will break/wear out and parts are becoming scarce.
 

mr

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mr, bear in mind my comments about wear and the Riva 3. I would suggest you consider and budget for a repalcement and a new ski. Cos they will break/wear out and parts are becoming scarce
Thanks, will do! (Maybe that's the point i go titanium (still hope yet telemarx)) Skifree, do the tangs bust off, or do they bend first?
 
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skifree

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I have seen bent and broken tangs (the bit that goes over the top of the duck bill. Most issues are with the cables.
 

mr

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Ah, the cables. Got a couple of spares. Reckon i'll put them on before the season starts, and keep them as the spares. Thanks
 

garry gow

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mr I'm with you on the Riva 3s which I have on some old BD Synchros for touring. Great binding, simple and light. Have you considered Voile 3 pin Hardwires? 3 pin for the uphill and then pop on the rods for downhill.
 

mr

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I hadnt really considered 3-pins due to the snow-in-the-holes problems alluded to above, which has sh@t me off on hire gear. There's a pair of the dad-in-laws skis in the shed with old 3-pin voiles but they dont fit the newer style fat toe piece.
 

garry gow

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I think you'll find that this won't be a problem with the newer 3 pin Hardwires. I must say I've never found getting snow in the holes much of a problem at all. Another interesting/suitable binding would be the Telebulldogs but I don't know if anyone distributes them in Australia.
 

skifree

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The rumour is there maybe a local dealer shortly for the telebulldogs.

And after 10 years BC touring I never want to see another pin and hole ever again.
 
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