1. SPECIAL NOTE TO NEW REGISTRATIONS

    If you recently registered and have not received a confirmation email - please check your 'Spam or Junk' folders. Especially if your email is Hotmail. More help with confirmation issues

    NOTE: This notice may be closed.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. There's more to this forum than meets the eye!

    We have a vibrant community here conversing about all sorts of non-snow topics such as music, sport, politics and technology. Simply register to reveal all our Après topics or continue browsing and reading as a guest.

    NOTE: This notice may be closed.

    Dismiss Notice

Question Telemark NTN / 75mm critical performance factors?

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Idoitmyway, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    Tonight I've spent some time comparing the Scott Voodoo and the Voodoo NTN.
    These are boots that come from the same model range in both 75 and NTN, so make an interesting reference control.

    I've no idea how these boots are considered on the performance spectrum, I'd expect they are sort of middle of the road from the feel of them. That's comparing to other boots in their class, not against NNN-BC or something.

    Without putting calipers on them it looks like they come out of exactly the same moulds, simply with some inserts in the moulds to create the different toe and heel. The 75mm even appears to have the same moulding for the duckbill to screw onto, just no duckbill.

    Again without putting calipers on them, they appear to have the same thickness "mid-soles" - the plastic body without the rubber glued on, suggesting they are structurally very similar if not identical.

    Pretty much everyone says NTN performs better than 75. I've not seen anything saying that the Scott is an exception to this.
    Are Scott the exception to the rule?

    Therefore, assuming Scott aren't the exception, I'm left with the tentative conclusion that the only significant differences creating the extra performance can be one or more of the following:
    1. The shorter front bill
    2. There are closer tolerances in the mating of bill to binding
    3. The binding itself
    I'm inclined to rule out 2. because if that was the case there'd be plenty of reports of getting significantly better performance with certain combinations of boot and binding (these boots are mass produced in precision tooling, so variation between individual boots will be fairly small). It would be an easy matter to tweak a 75mm binding to get a snug fit and the performance difference would disappear. I personally think this is in the realms of navel gazing - I don't believe any of the NTN bindings (please correct me) have toe height adjustment, yet boots will have slight variation (even if this is within the spec of the standard) and certainly they wear. So no fixed toe height binding can possibly mate snugly with every boot any more than a 75mm binding can, yet this doesn't seem to appear as a big factor when people talk about NTN vs 75. Also slop around the ski axis generally only appears when the boot is somewhere in mid flex, when it's flat the rocker usually levers the bill hard onto the binding, and when the heel's up it does so also.

    I struggle with 3. for a few reasons.
    • There are many NTN bindings out there with quite different characteristics and mechanics, but it remains pretty consistent that people feel NTN outperforms 75mm in any of them.
    • In virtually all NTN bindings I've looked at, I can't see that the torque forces are being applied to the ski except via the toe piece. The duckbill retention is almost invariably via a flexible member that has insignificant torsional stiffness compared to the boot. I haven't held many in my hands, so this may be incorrect. However again, if there was significant torque going through the duckbill of some specific bindings then I'd expect to have seen that discussed and there be a reasonably clear "winner" in binding performance.
    • Finally, when a binding that accepts both NTN and 75mm is discussed (eg. the Spikes) then it seems consistent that the NTN is still considered to give more performance. Therefore the "study" is controlled for both boot and binding.
    So I'm left with 1. as the most likely variable.
    If this is the case, then it should be possible to simply regrind a 75mm bill into NTN profile (perhaps a bit of thickness tweaking), whack it in a Spike or some other NTN binding that doesn't use the duckbill and bingo, performance at NTN level.

    Of course regrinding a Gara isn't going to turn it into a TX Comp or something, but if NTN is truly inherently that much better than 75 then you should see a very noticeable improvement in performance.

    Conversely if you don't see a step improvement in performance then there's something else going on. Perhaps simply stiffer boots? Perhaps better plastic in more recent boots, although that raises the question why a manufacturer would use one plastic for their 75mm models and another for their NTN?

    Or perhaps I'm completely missing something?
    There are a few assumptions in here that I've had to make in the absence of hard facts, but even taking them into account as best I can it still seems to reason out OK to me.

    So what have I missed? I'm intrigued by this.

    I've been trying to hunt down a copy of the NTN standard, but no joy so far. Haven't delved into Rottefella's patents yet, usually patents don't cover detailed dimensions anyway.

    Then I just need a donor boot to regrind and try it! Perhaps the ideal test would be a reground boot on one foot and the original on the other.
     
  2. skifree

    skifree Sort of old & definitely grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    20,599
    Likes Received:
    10,221
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Too much thinking not enough skiing.
     
    zac150 and dossa5 like this.
  3. buckwheat

    buckwheat One of Us

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2000
    Messages:
    947
    Likes Received:
    318
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW Australia
    Number 2. No lateral slop.

    Also no duckbill = better with crampons
     
    Untele-whippet likes this.
  4. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    25,135
    Likes Received:
    27,653
    Step in and out. I know its not a true one, but it is step in and out for me.

    I was starting to get a bit of lateral slop as my boots wore out, but to be honest, I rarely noticed it while skiing. Only in mank.

    NTN is decidedly easier on my legs, why?
     
    zac150 likes this.
  5. dossa5

    dossa5 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    306
    Location:
    Ovens Valley N.E Vico
    ntn creates a larger area to the ball of your foot hence less pressure is required throughout the turn. The resistance is determined by bellows and springs. First is technique.
     
    Untele-whippet likes this.
  6. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    16,490
    Likes Received:
    7,930
    Location:
    melbourne
    #4. sex appeal.
     
    skifree and telecrag like this.
  7. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    What?
    The ball of my foot doesn't get bigger in NTN. Maybe some other balls do, not sure yet.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say I'm afraid.
    Accurate nail strikes to my way of thinking.
    Step in/out is very nice and has been getting ever higher on my list of compromises as I age, but not really related to performance.
    I'm amazed how much lateral slop I can completely ignore - once the boot is engaged either up or down it functionally pretty much goes away in my view. In mank we use a lot more rotary forces so yes, then slop re-appears. Probably I'm just an insensitive old b*****d.
    'Cause it skis more like alpine. (says as he runs for cover).
    Another accurate analysis, and one that should not be ignored!

    And finally;
    It's dark, the Hotham road's closed (again), and as a newly minted fully recreational skier I get to choose when I go skiing for once in my life - it's very liberating. I chose to try on boots and cogitate yesterday (after enabling the Bright Brewery to take money from all the people stuck off the hill - very important public service I provided there.).
    I rest my defence.
     
    skifree and telecrag like this.
  8. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    25,135
    Likes Received:
    27,653
    I am one of the few I know, who came from an xc background, I have hardly done anytime at all on alpine, and its taken me a fair while to get my parallel to the point where it feels as easy as tele. My very first go on NTN was fun, but wrecked by boots that just didnt fit my foot. I got the setup dirt cheap, and had like 5 pairs of 75mm boots at the time, so I sold the lot cheap to Stuart Diver (who skied them for years before buying new gear), I still see the skis and binding being shared around the instructor group.

    The next season I bought again, and this time it took me about a week to feel great on it. Most people I knew at the time swapping over took a month, or gave up. The reason? Lack of rear ski feel. Why? Old school technique (long and low) while possible, is not rewarded. You can go as low as you like, but spread that stance too far, and its much harder (but very possible still) to pressure the rear ski properly. Or so I think. Rene was the first skier I saw skiing Euro(old school, just like alpine!), and making it not only work, but look right. But he is a very powerful skier. (shit, just realised Im triple booked to ski with people on Monday, first world problem).

    I think that the boot/binding interface is inherently different, and that the boot behaves differently (slightly) because of it.

    While I agree there is no lever as such, I get what I think @Telemark Phat means. In 75, the pressure to the binding from the boot is heel centric, while in the NTN binding its more cuff.

    I should point out that while I have been skiing for 45 years or so, I am just a punter.
     
  9. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    4,052
    I’d class you as more than a punter!

    But I’ll add “what he said times two”, pretty much my story except I switched over having spoken to the likes of TC and the now UN whippet.

    I think some of the elements being discussed are right at the edge and probably only picked up by the top five or ten percent as most have other areas they need to work on that effect performance more.
     
    Idoitmyway likes this.
  10. dossa5

    dossa5 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    306
    Location:
    Ovens Valley N.E Vico
    Side by side with engaged 75mm and NTN boots lifted you will see the area under the ball of the foot.
    NTN has a larger area.
    Can you create more pressure with a smaller/larger area.
     
    Untele-whippet likes this.
  11. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    I don't think I ski low, even by modern standards. My perception may be clouded though. I'd welcome others who know my skiing to pass comment. @dossa5 ? Even so I wasn't convinced I wanted to adapt to the feel of NTN.
    However I'm going to try to keep clear of the subjective in this thread - that's personal preference and independent of performance. Not because subjective doesn't matter, but just because it's not what I'm intrigued by here.

    The thing with the boot/binding interface is that it appears much of the perceived performance benefit of NTN remains even when skied in a traditional heel style connection.

    I suspect you're probably on the right line with @Telemark Phat and the lever thing, it's also what I'm tending to think he's on about. The lever is: fulcrum = toe piece, force = shin, load = hold down force from binding "activity". The lever is external to the binding, not a part of it. The location of the resistance (heel or duckbutt) must have some influence on how it all works, but again, why is it that NTN gets the performance nod irrespective of that location?
    I'm not sure I've ever been really aware of the difference between driving the back foot from the cuff vs the ball - it's something I'm really looking forward to playing with.

    It's Saturday - I avoid going up the mountains on Saturdays, and these days I have the choice, Hooray. I plead innocence of the crime of not skiing enough. Even if it's true.
     
  12. dossa5

    dossa5 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    306
    Location:
    Ovens Valley N.E Vico
    Last week I was in Jindy and skiied with ol mate Bruce from Wilderness Sports.
    Demoed the Lynx, OutlawX and Meijdo. All great bindings and would be happy with any those on my boards.
    He has such an array of tele gear to demo so get out there and make an informed opinion for yourselves.
     
    telecrag likes this.
  13. dossa5

    dossa5 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    306
    Location:
    Ovens Valley N.E Vico
    We both know how each other ski and mate you could race on a fence paling.
    Just dont know why not embrace new gear Im sure the patrol boys would agree.
    Not much technique changes and it still feels way good.
     
  14. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    Nup, faulty reasoning I reckon, based on what I can figure out.
    The Voodoo shells are all but identical bar the little bit that creates the duckbutt lip. It appears you can put the NTN version in a duckbutt or a heel type binding of the same fundamental design and get similar performance (ignore feel for the moment). It also appears the performance benefit is consistent across a range of NTN bindings with different under-foot arrangements. So it's got nothing to do with area under foot.

    On a physics side of it, you don't make any difference to the pressure with big or small area. You make a difference to the pressure per unit area, but that makes zip-diddly difference to the pressure on say, the edge of the ski. The area along the edge of the ski hasn't changed, therefore the pressure per unit area hasn't changed. If I weigh 70kg, I put 70kg force on the ground regardless if I stand on a pin or a pair of size 10 boots.

    A broader base under foot can certainly help transfer edging forces to the ski, as long as the platform is rigid with the ski. That's an old-school minor performance upgrade - wide pressure plate under the ball and heel, but it's got to be setup so it actually transfers the forces without moving itself.
    Thanks for the vote of confidence. Probably racing fence palings is an appropriate challenge for me!

    I wasn't being facetious though, I really was wondering where my stance sits in the scheme of things these days. It's not often (ever?) I ski with anyone who's close to the bleeding edge of technique these days, and I never get to watch myself, so I've got very little reference.

    My problem is I've got what - close to 3,000 days on skis I guess?, much if not most of it on teles. I know what I can do, I've got an ever increasing knowledge of what I can't do as I inch toward 6 decades, and I know what I like.
    I choose not to ski a lot these days, but when I do, I don't want to be frustrated by equipment. I don't get frustrated (much) with old school gear 'cause we've come to terms with each other and there's not much I want to do that I can't do on it.
    I'm extremely reluctant to shell out a heap of cash on something I've yet to discover I won't be frustrated by, particularly as I aim to gradually edge completely out of the workforce. I am looking at it - but I'm vastly quicker skiing than I am at making decisions!

    This thread though is more to do with understanding the mechanics of it all - I'm an industrial designer deep down still, I get a kick out of that stuff. I understand others might not, and prefer to just go skiing without all this techno babble.
    Whether I personally move to NTN or not (well actually that's probably inevitable as the supply of 75 dries up completely) has little to do with this discussion, that's an almost entirely different analysis around what my personal set of compromises are.

    Anyway, now it's my turn to say, "Too much thinking not enough skiing", or are you worn out from all those freshies?
     
    telecrag likes this.
  15. dossa5

    dossa5 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    306
    Location:
    Ovens Valley N.E Vico
    Perhaps I should have said 'Can you sustain pressure longer with a smaller or larger area'
     
  16. Ziggy

    Ziggy Repreived Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,097
    Likes Received:
    3,808
    Location:
    Melbourne base camp
    I've skied the Outlaw X and TX Pro for 6 weeks now. Cp T2X and Axls.

    There's more feel, stability and control.

    It's easier to get weight on the ball of the rear foot. It's much easier to steer the rear ski. It's easier to control edging.

    You explain it.
     
  17. Dropknee diehard

    Dropknee diehard First Runs

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    18
    @Idoitmyway I will be up your way for a week as of next Sat....I have a pair of T1 Bumblebee shells I can donate to the cause...probably a more fitting finish for them than using them for plant pots.
    The duckbills are cracked from using them with telebulldogss for two seasons but they still ski ok. From memory I think our foot size was pretty close they are a 28.0 mondo.
    I also have a pair of the original prototype Scarpa TX not the ones that broke or the ones that had the insert but the buttery soft prototypes your welcome to borrow (But not frankenstein them) and I have a spare set of freerides you can mount to your fence palings PM me and we can swap numbers and arrange for the project to begin.
     
    Idoitmyway likes this.
  18. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,617
    Likes Received:
    11,884
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    My thoughts:
    1. Its not so much the regular toe lug, than it is, depending on the binding, the duck but and or the tech fittings.

    When its the duckbutt I wish telemark tips still existed and I could point you to the article where Mitch (RIP) and Big Tim found the NTN patent online and made their own version. They got a hammer head and bolted the blue spreader to a Scarpa T1 shell. They couldn't believe the performance increase over a regular Hammerhead.

    When its the tech fittings they just provide so much response. In the alpine world you need to get into an alpine race binding before you get better lateral response than a tech binding.

    You can really feel the difference when you compare a TTS system (tech toe and some kind of heel throw) with the Meijdo or Lynx. Both the Meijdo and the Lynx ski soooo much better because of the duckbutt attachment than a heel throw. This is what I'm talking about when I talk about a shorter lever.

    2. There are much closer tolerances in NTN than 75mm. 75mm wasn't a true standard there was significant variation between sizes and manufacturers. NTN is a true standard. Sure you'll get wear over time, but the boots fit spot on when they are new.

    3. The binding itself is discussed in my response to point 1. The duckbutt attachment just works better than a heel throw.

    The boots will feel stiffer than 75mm unless you're in a binding because you don't have the lever of the duckbill to help you flex the boot.
     
  19. skifree

    skifree Sort of old & definitely grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    20,599
    Likes Received:
    10,221
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Do you know how unpossible it is to get any bondage skier to understand or believe this???
     
  20. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    Still can't see it.
    The bottom of my foot's the same size, the bottom of the ski's the same size, so the pressures that count haven't changed. And both my foot and the ski are capable of sustaining way more pressure than certainly I can generate.
    If the width of the contact area between boot & binding/ski is more then I reckon it helps, and a bigger support under the ball can give a subtly different feel, but it doesn't look like all NTN bindings do that so the argument falls down.

    Maybe we'll look at it on the hill one day.

    Started CAD modelling a TTT Binding today (I'm not divulging what the tla stands for!). Might 3D print a "proof of concept" next week. If that looks OK I'll try to find some time to start machining aluminium.
    Into the unknown of R&D.
     
  21. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    Your Point 1 discussion is interesting.
    I understand a bit better now what you're talking about with the "lever" (I'm still adamant it's not a lever), the hold down point is closer to the ball, rather than the heel. I can see how that changes the characteristics of the boot flex and feel.

    The tech fitting thing - happy to take your word that they ski better than std. NTN, one day I might get to compare them myself.
    I'm a bit dubious that they ski as well as alpine bindings - if that was the case I'd probably expect to see a lot more people on performance alpine gear moving to them. But there's other factors involved in that equation too so I'll just accept that tech is the current gold standard. Which does raise the question - what are the top handful of WC racers using? Tech or std? It looked to me like std was a lot more common? Could be something to do with rules though?

    The Hammerhead story is interesting, I'm intrigued to replicate that experiment for my own education. But I also know that some of the things people have claimed to be performance increases were nothing of the sort in my opinion when I tried it. I've skied on setups people said were way better performing, and as far as I was concerned I couldn't get one iota better edging or pressure control out of it, it just held the heel tighter to the ski. I believe the difference made them feel more secure, and that made them feel like they skied stronger. The real difference in edge/power/whatever to the ski was zero as far as I could tell. Perception is a powerful thing. I don't deny that my perception could be as clouded as I think there's was.

    Point 2. - I remain unconvinced that it's more than a minor factor in the big picture. Don't get me wrong, closer tolerances are a good thing in almost every way, it just doesn't seem to explain what's going on. I reckon it's a small factor, and every bit helps, but that's about it.

    Point 3. and the first sentence in 1. are opinion, which is fine, but it doesn't shed any light onto the why.
    Why does a duckbutt attached to the ski via a flexible member make the ski edge better?
    Beats me - and that's part of what I'm trying to figure out.

    I haven't made this explicitly clear perhaps, I'm restricting myself just to when the boot is flat on the ski, if we started looking at all the variations as the heel / ball rises it would just get way to complex for my brain to tackle. All sorts of stuff would be changing as the angles and forces change - way too hard.
     
  22. rols

    rols Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    103
    Location:
    tas
    This (obviously) is the key, the closer you can move the rear attachment (duckbutt) to the bellows the less influence the forefoot retaining force has on the heel retaining force. Meaning the forefoot retention can be much higher without making it way too hard to raise the heel. To visualise, if you take it to the extreme and could move the duckbutt to be underneath the bellows line, the spring would have near zero influence on heel retention.
     
  23. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    It's still not obvious to me how that transfers edging forces to the ski. Probably just too stuck in my box or something.

    I'm talking about when the boot's flat on the ski (front foot), so lift is pretty irrelevant (I think, maybe that's my faulty assumption?).
    In this situation the force from the retention (duckbutt or heel) is pretty close to parallel to the ski so should have little impact on torque transfer, or even forefoot hold down. Note to self: I need to take a closer look at the angles between ski attachment point and boot attachment point for NTN vs Heel.
    I think it's only the Bishop BMF that has a setup specifically to apply downward force on the boot even when it's flat on the ski, the others just ramp up rapidly as soon as the boot lifts a little bit. Certainly not zero downward force, but it's at the very bottom of the curve.

    The only link I can clearly see is that at higher retention forces the toe of the boot is jammed into it's toe box more tightly, so there's less opportunity for movement in there, but that becomes irrelevant with tech toes so I don't think it's the answer.

    So it's not obvious to me that that's the key. It might well be, but I still don't understand why.
    Which keeps bringing me back to thinking the shorter duckbill is the significant variable. I've got a donor pair of boots coming so I'll hopefully soon run the experiment.

    The heel lift / forefoot-retention balance is linked, but I look at that as an issue for another discussion (no I'm not going to bore you with that).
     
  24. skifree

    skifree Sort of old & definitely grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    20,599
    Likes Received:
    10,221
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    The binding fixes the boot to the ski, move boot, ski moves, preferably both to same edge and round you go.

    Simples.
     
    Telemark Phat and dossa5 like this.
  25. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    Easy then. Back to screws through the boot into the ski - job done.
    I thought there was more to it.

    You should have kept that quiet, shops wont sell any more tele bindings now!
    :):)
     
    skifree likes this.
  26. skifree

    skifree Sort of old & definitely grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    20,599
    Likes Received:
    10,221
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    I have promoted this prior, maybe search for gum boots or Wellington boots

    But it didn’t catch on. The lack of release was a negative.
     
  27. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    14,892
    Likes Received:
    22,652
    Location:
    Blue Mtns, 1100M.
    But don’t your feet just eject from the Gum Boots?
     
    buckwheat likes this.
  28. skifree

    skifree Sort of old & definitely grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    20,599
    Likes Received:
    10,221
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Possible, testing required.

    We need a fettler to build a prototype, someone who enjoys fooling around with telemark bindings....
     
  29. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    Nah, done already.
    In Japan they had (still have perhaps?) nice yellow gumboots with 75mm toes. I remember ski patrol were pretty fond of them as they worked nicely with the mandatory shoe removal at the door.
    Pretty scary to watch a couple of blokes in gumboots and skinny skis heading down the hill with a loaded sled controlled by ropes at each corner.
     
    skifree likes this.
  30. skifree

    skifree Sort of old & definitely grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    20,599
    Likes Received:
    10,221
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Not the same as hardware store gum boots & screws, but so close it tells us it’s possible.
     
  31. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,617
    Likes Received:
    11,884
    Location:
    Jindabyne
     
    skifree and Dropknee diehard like this.
  32. Dropknee diehard

    Dropknee diehard First Runs

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    18
  33. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    Wandi
    I bet they'd absolutely rip if they were NTN! LOL
    Looking a lot more controlled than some of the patrollers we saw!
     
    skifree likes this.