The BBB thread

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by dossa5, May 27, 2016.

  1. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    He developed that anticipated style IN SPITE OF his father's attempts to straighten him out.
    Frustrated Dad was baffled by the fact that he was still winning races by 10 seconds.
    When shoulder windup is transferred, ski tips are driven down, which recenters balance from that backseat end of the turn.
     
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  2. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    In the meantime, the Epicskiers pontificate wisely about "long leg, short leg".
    But as every Kitten knows, the upper body needs to be examined in detail for proper appreciation.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    But make the slope a bit steeper and you will see those lovely Riellyturns start to change to J turns due to late edging.
    H Harb posted this clip and stated that his inside arm comes further forward (calls it active counter or some such). As a perfect gentleman he later deleted that comment, but it is more important than a whole book about toe tipping.
    Could it be that he seems more fluid as he leads the way with his new artificial knee? Surely not!

     
  4. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    A better way to improve your skiing
     
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  5. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    We witness the demise of riser technique. We can blame racing regs, so nobody these days enjoys the extended carves which result.
    Bel rotation is an integral part of the riser surpriser, so it will return as our method goes rabid.
    Probably only KL and DaWoody appreciated the upper body move to initiate the top turn above.
    Here is how the inside arm sets up rotation from a great height:
     
  6. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    [​IMG] G3 risers. Where to get them?
     
  8. jean clod

    jean clod Just Registered

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    My first post and I've been following this thread for a while and am still :confused: confused as to its purpose . I'm an older aspiring upper level intermediate whose stuck in the proverbial rut and wanted to pose a question to the experts .
    How does the technical skiing of a French Canadian guy rate , JF Beauleiu .To my eye he looks fantastic , but interested in other opinions .
     
  9. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    He's one of the best technical skiers in the world and a brilliant instructor too.

    It costs a little but he shares his wisdom in Project Kitz and Project Hintertux
     
  10. jean clod

    jean clod Just Registered

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    Thanks TP , he sure looks like a fantastic technical skier and one for the weekend warrior to aspire to . I hadn't seen those instructional videos before and are probably worth a look .
     
  11. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Imagine that you are JF himself. I see in one clip you demonstrating an advanced Ligeti anticipation exercise without poles, but there is not a trace of it when you are using them, except when the snow gets near six inches deep.
    You are obviously constrained to teach a style that LOOKS great, rather than IS great.
     
  12. jean clod

    jean clod Just Registered

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    To the ametuer eye JFBeaulieu's style looks flawless and I don't know what a Ligeti anticipation exercise is . I would love to ski like JF Beaulieu but that will have to wait for another lifetime .
    Is the key to what you have been talking about in this thread all about Ted Ligeti's racing style and his arm and upper body movement ?
     
  13. jean clod

    jean clod Just Registered

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    I should add this is a genuine enquiry , as I said I'm upper level intermediate type skier who wants to improve . I've got some extra time this coming season and intend to do a couple of 1 week camps or 1 week block lessons in Canada somewhere .
    I started looking on the net and found this thread plus other sources as I,m trying to analyse my faults to help lift my skiing to a more enjoyable level . I saw a great quote on an earlier thread on here " if someone says they can't ski bumps properly ,it's not true . It's not so much that they can't ski bumps it's more that they can't ski "
    That's my aim this year to conquer the dreaded moguls .
     
  14. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    TP is very positive about their instruction and you surely would benefit hugely from it.
    There is probably one on one tips which go much further than the rather stylized DVD demos.

    Rather than "ski like them", your approach should be "fix my faults".
    Questions that I would ask include-
    "Your clips show hybrid turn entry over four ski lengths, how can that be reduced ?"
    It is important that even edge pressure is generated right from the start of the turn, not just for racing,
    but for an easier approach to smoother and effortless skiing and enjoying early morning boiler plate while the brave boarders are straightlining or destroying their edges from sliding out.
     
  15. jean clod

    jean clod Just Registered

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    Thanks , the difficulty is always understanding and identifying your weaknesses before you can attempt to correct .
    An image of what is a correct technical style is what I was after and this seems to be a controversial issue .
     
  16. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I would like to think that you will absorb the current instruction fads like a sponge, but your personal goals will allow you to happily add forbidden moves when they "work". That way those sought after perfect turns will not become the most boring. :) . Jean Claude hated to have his style examined , he worried that it would stiffen him up (but not like a Kitten)
     
  17. jean clod

    jean clod Just Registered

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    When I was I young and impressionable I used to dream of being the real JC on my 210 Fischer RC4's and when I came back to skiing many many years later they shortened up the paddle pop sticks and narrowed up the waist .
    I see the real Jean Claude doesn't even ski any more .
     
  18. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    He spent 3 years skiing with Putin before the Winter Olympics in Russia. You saw my clip of Putin skiing Anticipation Style, no doubt. He had a limp ("sports injury") but carried it off (the clip of him being carried off no longer exists)'

    Pfft! The RC4's were just a detuned version of the C4's, says my uncle. He sent his back to Austria for new bases after he skied them to destruction.
     
  19. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Rather than controversy, there is a denial that anything has been lost in espousing the twisting of knees as the basis of all modern downhill skiing. You probably read Barnes five essential rotation mechanisms in this thread and said "Um, I know all that" based on your early ski experience.
    But when it has been mentioned by me or Epicski there is a profound silence. (Even the foot tipping style of Harald Harb is banned from that self censoring forum)
    When answering a completely self satisfied "expert" skier who starts by dismissing a top rotation out of hand I feel like answering like the farmer who was asked directions on the road:
    "You know, I don't think that you can get there from here!"
     
  20. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    In your prime, JC, when you were bouncing those stiff skis from powerful checks, you possibly read Lito's "Breakthrough on Skis" without taking much notice of it. Then came "Breakthrough on the New Skis", and 7 years ago "Soft Skiing: The Secrets of Effortless, Low-Impact Skiing for Older Skiers"
    In a perfect world you could just look up an instructor who teaches that upper body anticipation, but you might have to get the book and go from there. Do you want to ski gentle slopes for the gallery or challenging slopes for yourself? Loading the TOP of the TURN is the way to ski satisfaction , n'est ce pas?
    [​IMG]
     
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  21. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I have noted an incestuous following of the isolated turn from a whole generation of demonstration instructors.
    . This is OK providing skiers can adapt their style so they don't start jumping around when the piste goes steeper than 20 degrees.
    Where did it all go wrong to the point where nobody can explain how Ligeti does a transition?
    Harald Harb used Lito's turns in his earliest videos because they were so smooth and effective.
    But when students pointed out the shoulder anticipation he disowned it in favour of stressing foot initiation, even though it has remained as a undocumented part of his technique.. .
    So instead of diving into the initiation we are supposed to "let the pressure build up"
    JC's check turns were better
     
  22. jean clod

    jean clod Just Registered

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    :)Thanks BBB ,I will now retire to my study to study my videos and learn how to ski . I am not really a student of technique or terms but just want to ski the whole mountain with more confidence and flair ( but leave the out of bounds to the kids ) .
    I understand your point about early initiation and I'll ponder that as well .
     
  23. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I must confess that I have only watched 5 minutes of the above clip. In that group I might say "Let's go and ski, now, hey?"
    I have noted complete "failures" to adapt to the new skis. Old habits die hard.
    Rather than try all sorts of fat "high end" equipment with adjustable rocker etc, just hire some soft ladies' skis and experiment for a week or so, maybe. ..
    All the best :)
     
  24. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    PS. Lito and Harb come together again. All you need to get up to speed! Dunno why Lito has not had this taken down. True Gentleman!
    https://www.you tube.com/watch?v=D30kkyhnwBU
     
  25. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I recommend Lito's Soft Skiing book, because it also covers the hardest skiing turns you might ever contemplate.
    25 dollars for this month delivery from Fishpond. :)
     
  26. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    How is it that Ito came to use and teach anticipation turning? He has suffered a broken back (not a skiing accident) and an ACL rupture. During recovery he would search for the lowest impact style.
    Interesting that his partner of 20 years DOES NOT make Bel turns.
    I came to Bel ski technique via Skoarding (Google it) after 10 years of alpine snowboarding.
    Even then it took me a whole season of top turning before it's superiority was evident.
     
  27. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    :blb: Why are we instructed to replace a pole plant with a pole tap?
    A pole plant was good because it provided a trigger for the edge change.
    A pole plant was bad because it made an early edge change impossible.
    A dedicated pole planter will never know the flow of a Lito/Harb/Bel or KL.
     
  28. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    BUT, to plant a pole is better than the present fad of DOING NOTHING to initiate a turn.
    Let me recall the different types of rotation from the Bob Barnes description that I pointed to, ALL of which should be understood and practiced by the Compleat Skier.
    1. Counter Rotation. Shoulders clockwise makes feet anticlockwise.
    (Twisters in the air. Slow and continuous movement on the snow not possible)
    2. Rotation. "Arlburg". Turn shoulders in the direction of the turn during the turn.
    ( A no-no. Uncontrollable . Maybe in horrible snow.)
    3. Blocking. Pole plant converts twisted upper body to foot rotation.
    ( Only available for the duration of the plant.)
    4.Fulcrum Turning. Independent Leg Rotation. Likes wide stance. Subtle ski guidance in a pure carved turn
    (Present instruction and pretty demos involve NOTHING ELSE.)
    5.Anticipation-Release. Windup during previous turn and Stopping at any point will torque the skis. The Beautiful Bel.
    (Supercharges all of the above mechanisms :) )
     
  29. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Barnes calls the bounce from the loaded ski a special case of Rotation. Without the pole blocking which releases a rotary body tension a skier must shift his CG back and forward again to make it work. The "acceleration" which is often claimed is just the result of slowing to load the ski before the release brings it back to speed.
    Self taught Anticipaters (No paid instructor is willing to risk fines by skiing in my style) can be recognised by bringing the "wrong" (inside) pole forward . Top instructors are halfway there by forgetting pole action entirely, which allows SOME anticipation.. Demonstration skiers are usually a long way into the wilderness of corduroy capers.
     
  30. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Addicted Member
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    Bears can demonstrate the development of the face plant..for those pushing their boundaries..
     
  31. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Like the Bears probably are right on top of , the most radical diversion from the interim JF style is the actual use of an INSIDE pole plant to set up the necessary strong anticipation to avoid wasting the top of the next turn in "relaxed and patient transitions".
    For this the Bel Bequest must go to the Argentinians and Equadorians.
     
  32. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    The rest of the world is being dragged kicking and screaming into the style used for a year now by the most progressive instructors.
    Typical of these is Parallel Dreams Coaching of
    Association of Independent Snowsport Instructors Valais

    The dam is broken. No longer will the JF crew have to cripple their style with an inactive upper body.


    And they are already demonstrating a new freedom.
    A week ago Harold Harb commented on the above Interski clip:
    "The Ozzies, they have 2 of the best in the world and use the most efficient technique, at least their 2 best skiers do."
     
  33. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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  34. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    David cant see the wood for the trees? I am in a bad mood tonight because the ridermower most inaccessible belt got jambed again.. David analyses feet to such an extent that he can patent his observations. Can YOU detect a change in ramp angle of point one degrees? Note his response to my comment on that clip:

    bawbawbel @skimoves
    Maybe you should stress that this pelvic rotation comes from upper body rotation. (bringing the inside arm and shoulder forward) (31 Oct 2015)

    David:
    because it shouldn't. I think you are referring to inside arm/hip lead. (22 Nov )

    internal-external rotation of legs produces arm position.
    comes from global pelvic rotation. (29 Nov).

    Oh Boy! Inside arm/hip STOPPING, please!
    Cart before the horse, Skis before the arm. Whatever floats your boat. The next ski generation will wonder about our brainwash by this tosh.
     
  35. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    From Green to Black in 3 days! Saved by the Bel!
    The very simple guide to anticipated turns.
    Day 1 (Green)
    Standing on the patented rusty bar stool, the student is invited to try by any means to find an easy method to avoid pointing skis straight down the fall line. After futile attempts, windup/release is demonstrated and practiced.
    Snowplough turns without weight change are then demonstrated and mastered.
    Day 2 (Blue)
    Practice until turns become parallel and can be completed with NO knee swivel or unweighting.
    Day 3 (Black)
    Ski everywhere with extreme confidence.
     
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  36. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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  37. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    OMG! I compare him to my typical first timer, refusing to get up because the snow is "slippery".
    Got to experiment with the rusty bar stool idea. Initially I will try on an existing windsurfer gybe demonstrator. It is like a 2 meter diameter lazy susan, rotating on a hundred golf balls.
    Tilt to 5 degrees, ski bindings wide stance mounted 20 cm downslope to provide that dreaded effect of gravity pulling the students into acceleration down the slope.
    The game would be to dynamically remain across the fall line.
     
  38. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    What's wrong with existing ski trainers? Well, the best you can get , at any price, only provide upper body rotary exercises as a separate attachment without integration of lower body movements.
    Useless!

    Looking at a Harb turn, now.
    He forbids extension or hip dumping at transition. And no upper rotary at transition. (no mention of BEFORE transition, note ).

    This is because it would upset the subtle anticipation generated by his signature "phantom move" or "ski tipping" . (The give away is the usual forward inner arm position.)
    Even that small effect is well worth the effort. :)
    Imagine what could be unlocked by the proposed crash course. Straight to the nitty gritty !
    Way to go, Alphonso!
     
  39. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Ok, KL, I won't call it Bel.
    This powerful ski style is to be simply called SURF style.
    STOPPED UPPERBODY RESPONSE by the FEET.

    Existing trainers? 10 years ago was the VIBE. (looks like it died...)
    Vestibular Inertial Balance Energiser.
    Here it is shown responding to weight shift turning input. (not significant)

    But a significant aspect of SURF windup and release is demonstrated here

    An important SURF principle is demonstrated.
    A slow windup followed by a FAST block (in this case a fast reversal) produces the torque in the direction of the new turn.
    Note the lady not turning by not yet comprehending the principle.
     
  40. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    Its amasing what mastering the bel technique will let you accomplish

     
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  41. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Thanks for the video for analysis. While your friend Piega must have thought that SURF technique was present, I feel that you must have skipped the most important exercises that I have posted.
    Please do not try turning on one ski just yet.
     
  42. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    More Bel techinque goodness

     
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  43. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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  44. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    CanOstrich ....

     
  45. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    OK. It was an "Austrian instructor" and not H Harb who showed him the phantom move. So, what allows his inside ski tip to engage? Not pulling his inside leg back, or we would see it. He makes only a token upper anticipatory move, forever mindful of the biblical edict that it should "allow his lower body to initiate the turn".
    (The equivalent law in SURF skiing is "upper body stopping must be timed so that the shoulders never go past square to the direction of motion")
    What he achieves is a SIMULTANEOUS rather than leading movement of the inner arm, much less than Harald.
    But definitely a step in the right direction. :cool::cool::cool::cool:
     
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  46. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Can't find one.
    I am modifying an Abcircle Pro wit support handles ( used just for getting on and off )
    Available for a few dollars, but also no longer manufactured.
    Looking for other solutions, as this is the key to a 3 day rather than 3 week course of green to black instruction.
    On the second day, students will be linking snowplough turns, even with their eyes shut. :)
     
  47. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Of importance is the provision of rotary resistance equivalent to that of a partly edged ski, the "rusty bar stool" to which Bob Barnes alluded. This solution is critical to the progress of the SURF Project, which calls for more than a hundred trainer units. An adjustable pressure wheel seems a bit primitive.
    Most solutions need stepup gearing, such as magnetic or fan resistance.
    Does anybody know the secret of toilet seats that close slowly?
     
  48. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Was it a dance from the seventies that started the decline of recreational ski technique to the present dominance of fulcrum turning with the knees at the expense of whole body turning? I must admit that I went a long way down that road, just like everyone.
    Regarding turntable twist exercise machines, the lack of development is probably due to fear of public liability.
    They were universally used with a simple reverse shoulder action, of course (shoulders clockwise make feet turn anticlockwise, the opposite action to a SURF move)
    [​IMG]
     
  49. Telemark Phat

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  50. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Development of the SURF trainer is taking longer than I would like.
    Because there is nothing like it in the world, and we must have a design which any level skier will like..
    So I am providing on the same machine both a wide stance beginner position which is easily deflected, and a narrow Harb stance which needs both exact timing and core strength.
    Instead of an adjustable friction wheel, resistance is provided by gravity and foot position below the pivot center of an inclined disk. A chime sounds as the feet are deflected more than 70 degrees in either direction.
    Or sounding a Bel might be more in keeping with it's history :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo: