zapruda

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Management plans are fairly flexible compared to legislation and regulations, so I suspect that detail has been simply been removed from later updates to the plan. They usually update plans atleast every couple of years.

Perhaps check the legislation in relation to declared wilderness areas to see if it addresses this issue.

The 2006 version is the most current. And all updates to the plan are listed as amendments on the website. The is no mention of changed rules relating to commercial operations in wilderness zones.

 
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Xplora

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The 2006 version is the most current. And all updates to the plan are listed as amendments on the website. The is no mention of changed rules relating to commercial operations in wilderness zones.

A please explain from NPWS is easy enough. Provide details of the tour operator and the ad. The operator must have a permit and that will provide all the detail needed. You should be able to make the enquiry at the local office. Permits will not be issued there but they should have the information and it might be quicker than going through a web based enquiry form.

Perhaps you have to pay more to be listed on the NPWS website for guided tours. Wilderness Sports is the only one I found. https://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.a...nowy-mountains-main-range-guided-hiking-tours
 
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zapruda

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A please explain from NPWS is easy enough. Provide details of the tour operator and the ad. The operator must have a permit and that will provide all the detail needed. You should be able to make the enquiry at the local office. Permits will not be issued there but they should have the information and it might be quicker than going through a web based enquiry form.

Perhaps you have to pay more to be listed on the NPWS website for guided tours. Wilderness Sports is the only one I found. https://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.a...nowy-mountains-main-range-guided-hiking-tours

Thanks Xplora. I was just hoping for some quick insight here before I start bothering people I know at NPWS.

Bruce’s advertisement on the NPWS site doesn’t mention tours within the Jagungal Wilderness.

Ultimately I’m just curious if we are seeing further commercialisation within our national parks, or more precisely, the start of commercialisation within previously protected areas like Wilderness Zones.
 

Xplora

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Thanks Xplora. I was just hoping for some quick insight here before I start bothering people I know at NPWS.

Bruce’s advertisement on the NPWS site doesn’t mention tours within the Jagungal Wilderness.

Ultimately I’m just curious if we are seeing further commercialisation within our national parks, or more precisely, the start of commercialisation within previously protected areas like Wilderness Zones.
I am with you on this. Happy to do some digging for you also if you need. Add another perspective. I have done a lot of investigative research for various people and groups and may be able to turn something up. Just PM what you know if you think it will help. I am sure there are many people running illegal tours in Parks or stretching the bounds of a permit.
 

Xplora

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Found this that refers to Wilderness areas

Parks Eco Pass - Activity and location conditions
The Licensee must ensure that in the Main Range Management Unit and Wilderness Areas away from the walking track that a maximum of eight (8) clients per group with a guide to client ratio of 1:7 is adhered to. The exception being Hannel’s Spur Route which is limited to a maximum group size (including guide) is eight (8) with a guide to client ratio of 1:3.
 

Xplora

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Thanks Xplora. I was just hoping for some quick insight here before I start bothering people I know at NPWS.

Bruce’s advertisement on the NPWS site doesn’t mention tours within the Jagungal Wilderness.

Ultimately I’m just curious if we are seeing further commercialisation within our national parks, or more precisely, the start of commercialisation within previously protected areas like Wilderness Zones.
From what I have found this morning it seems there has been no change to the Plan of Management since 2006 that would allow commercial operators into Wilderness zones apart from horse riding on designated trails. That was an amendment to the plan. It is somewhat confusing that the conditions for commercial operators has mention of wilderness areas in the permit application (as I posted above) but the plan is specific about this throughout and it is mentioned a number of times that commercial operations are prohibited.

Section 9(c) of the Wilderness Act does allow for commercial operations in Wilderness areas but it is not specific as to the locations. Plans of Management are statutory instruments generally commissioned under legislation and must be adhered to.
 

zapruda

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From what I have found this morning it seems there has been no change to the Plan of Management since 2006 that would allow commercial operators into Wilderness zones apart from horse riding on designated trails. That was an amendment to the plan. It is somewhat confusing that the conditions for commercial operators has mention of wilderness areas in the permit application (as I posted above) but the plan is specific about this throughout and it is mentioned a number of times that commercial operations are prohibited.

Section 9(c) of the Wilderness Act does allow for commercial operations in Wilderness areas but it is not specific as to the locations. Plans of Management are statutory instruments generally commissioned under legislation and must be adhered to.

Thanks mate. Much appreciated. It’s typically confusing. Never as clear as it should be. Please let me know if you come across anything else.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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So basically Parks has some flexibility & wriggle room.

Something to raise and abolish next Man Plan review.
 

Xplora

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So basically Parks has some flexibility & wriggle room.

Something to raise and abolish next Man Plan review.
I would not say there is wiggle room for NPWS to allow commercial operators in Wilderness areas of KNP but there is an ambiguity in the permit area and perhaps that has been exploited. Just because the words 'commercial' and 'wilderness' have been used in one area does not mean it is allowed if the plan prohibits it specifically. The plan has obviously had some review since 2006 as amendments were made and there was no need to change the entire plan.
 
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GS

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After my last ski trip I came home and mentioned to my other half how canister stoves are great but I do miss the liquid fuel Whisperlight stove for cooking in the snow.

She arrived home today from a trip to Alaska and presented me with a sparkling new MSR Whisperlight.....

PXL_20220723_055447404.jpg
 

hongomania

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After my last ski trip I came home and mentioned to my other half how canister stoves are great but I do miss the liquid fuel Whisperlight stove for cooking in the snow.

She arrived home today from a trip to Alaska and presented me with a sparkling new MSR Whisperlight.....

PXL_20220723_055447404.jpg
They're great; but do require you to be "present" when operating. Don't wanna overprime

giphy.gif
 

GS

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They're great; but do require you to be "present" when operating. Don't wanna overprime

giphy.gif
Yeah I have a good technique after many decades of experience lighting Whisperlights.

I was in a hut one time when a young couple came in and the guy must have pumped 70+ strokes before I suggested he stop there before the thing explodes
 

Xplora

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They're great; but do require you to be "present" when operating. Don't wanna overprime

giphy.gif
Hard to know where else you would be when operating but I have seen some massive flares with the Whisperlight when used by people for the first time. We have been running the Dragonfly in the snow for 20 plus years. Have two and both are showing some age but still going strong. Had to do some repairs on the plunger after the last trip but it was only an 'O' ring. The Dragonfly has better flame control (bottle and stove control) than the whisperlight. I just couldn't go back to a cannister. Fine enough for one person but you end up with a lot of cannisters that are just not full enough for a big trip so you put them aside for a day trip. And then you have the waste of throwing out cannisters. Cannister fuel is not as good at Aus altitude and in the cold.

Many years ago, when working in the outdoor industry, I suggested to some big suppliers they supply a used cannister collection point at the retail store. Not worth their while and I guess they all end up in landfill.
 

GS

Part of the Furniture
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Hard to know where else you would be when operating but I have seen some massive flares with the Whisperlight when used by people for the first time. We have been running the Dragonfly in the snow for 20 plus years. Have two and both are showing some age but still going strong. Had to do some repairs on the plunger after the last trip but it was only an 'O' ring. The Dragonfly has better flame control (bottle and stove control) than the whisperlight. I just couldn't go back to a cannister. Fine enough for one person but you end up with a lot of cannisters that are just not full enough for a big trip so you put them aside for a day trip. And then you have the waste of throwing out cannisters. Cannister fuel is not as good at Aus altitude and in the cold.

Many years ago, when working in the outdoor industry, I suggested to some big suppliers they supply a used cannister collection point at the retail store. Not worth their while and I guess they all end up in landfill.

It's easy to feel guilty when you have half a cupboard of almost empty canisters. I usually use them for car camping
 

AndrewA

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What about one of one of those little gizmos like these?

45B4064C-5097-492A-8C72-C6CD3E874BDE.jpeg


Not sure whether this is exactly the one , but I bought one years ago, and it allows a mostly empty gas canister to drain into a less empty one to combine the contents. I found them very successful, but I recall that they had to be pretty cold to work, to liquify the gas.

My Wisperlite died suddenly on Bogong one year, which made for a far less enjoyable weekend than I had aimed for, so it was replaced with a fire maple inverting canister stove, and I haven’t missed the bastard since!

A
 
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Xplora

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What about one of one of those little gizmos like these?

45B4064C-5097-492A-8C72-C6CD3E874BDE.jpeg


Not sure whether this is exactly the one , but I bought one years ago, and it allows a mostly empty gas canister to drain into a less empty one to combine the contents. I found them very successful, but I recall that they had to be pretty cold to work, to liquify the gas.

My Wisperlite died suddenly on Bogong one year, which made for a far less enjoyable weekend than I had aimed for, so it was replaced with a fire maple inverting canister stove, and I haven’t missed the bastard since!

A
I am just wondering how the pressure in one cannister would affect the transfer to another. When pressure equalises no gas would transfer but the one with the higher pressure would transfer to the lower. That is the nature of physics (and weather).
 

art

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I think the concept is the pressure in the canisters is constant, more or less. As gas is used more boils off from the liquid phase.
The transfer is via gravity of the liquid phase. The top canister is left with a bit of gas remaining but the liquid drains to the bottom canister.

I could be very wrong.

I suspect you need to be careful to not over fill the bottom canister with liquid. Very much a use at your own risk device I suspect
 
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GS

Part of the Furniture
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What about one of one of those little gizmos like these?

45B4064C-5097-492A-8C72-C6CD3E874BDE.jpeg


Not sure whether this is exactly the one , but I bought one years ago, and it allows a mostly empty gas canister to drain into a less empty one to combine the contents. I found them very successful, but I recall that they had to be pretty cold to work, to liquify the gas.

My Wisperlite died suddenly on Bogong one year, which made for a far less enjoyable weekend than I had aimed for, so it was replaced with a fire maple inverting canister stove, and I haven’t missed the bastard since!

A

i also have one and it works ok
 
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AndrewA

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If I recall correctly…..pre CV times…..you weigh the canisters to work out how much gas is in them, so you don’t overfill one, and then chuck them in the freezer to liquify it, and then the top drains down to the bottom one…or you warm up the bottom one to get all that gas to go to the top? There was plenty of stuff on the net about it, and it worked well.
 
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ecowain

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What about one of one of those little gizmos like these?

45B4064C-5097-492A-8C72-C6CD3E874BDE.jpeg


Not sure whether this is exactly the one , but I bought one years ago, and it allows a mostly empty gas canister to drain into a less empty one to combine the contents. I found them very successful, but I recall that they had to be pretty cold to work, to liquify the gas.

My Wisperlite died suddenly on Bogong one year, which made for a far less enjoyable weekend than I had aimed for, so it was replaced with a fire maple inverting canister stove, and I haven’t missed the bastard since!

A
I use one regularly. Water from the hot tap in the concave bottom of the inverted source canister. Gravity as well, filling the bottom canister.

Don’t overfill. Weigh a full store bought canister. Then check the weight of the one you are filling frequently so as not to overfill.

Purely theoretical…
 

AndrewA

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I use one regularly. Water from the hot tap in the concave bottom of the inverted source canister. Gravity as well, filling the bottom canister.

Don’t overfill. Weigh a full store bought canister. Then check the weight of the one you are filling frequently so as not to overfill.

Purely theoretical…
Ah, so the gas goes up, not the other way around…
 

Xplora

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What a lot of dicking about.

Just step up to a MSR.
That is how I read it. It is nice to know how much fuel you have on a trip. Maybe some weight advantage but I don't go solo now so can share. Keeping stoves and fuel bottles in working order is still important. Not bagging the cannister, just not my thing and have given it a fair crack.
 

Chaeron

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I use one regularly. Water from the hot tap in the concave bottom of the inverted source canister. Gravity as well, filling the bottom canister.

Don’t overfill. Weigh a full store bought canister. Then check the weight of the one you are filling frequently so as not to overfill.

Purely theoretical…
I do the same. Buy larger canisters, transfer to smaller - and verify via weight.

But for most snow trips - Whisperlite if not solo, Primus Optimus Svea if solo.
 

sidetrack

I ride things
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After my last ski trip I came home and mentioned to my other half how canister stoves are great but I do miss the liquid fuel Whisperlight stove for cooking in the snow.

She arrived home today from a trip to Alaska and presented me with a sparkling new MSR Whisperlight.....

PXL_20220723_055447404.jpg
I’m more concerned that she went to Alaska without you
 

GS

Part of the Furniture
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Which failed me when I was all alone and just wanted some hot water….

What failed on your Whisperlight?
My original of late 80s vintage still operates fine, I only stopped using it as it's the version with the original rubber hose that will eventually perish and fail... potentially catastrophically.

30 years & only one real failure. Flew out from Melaleuca at Easter, bought nu wun, flew back.



Problem was crack in old bottle O ring.

Ah the cracked Oring, I had the small one fail that seals the burner fitting into pump. Continued using it very carefully for the remainder of that trip with low pressure and raw fuel weeping out.
 

seak

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Me, on Crosscut Saw on Tuesday 19th, after leaving Vallejo Gantner hut.
It never got warmer than apparent -8C at Mt Buller that day - and we camped out that night.
I am still not right, even after the comfy 9hr XPT from Wangaratta to Sydney on Thursday.
Photo credit to Grant E.

1658629437605.png
 

seak

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An Impressive effort .
:cool:
How was the snow surface?
You are living the dream !
The snow surface was excellent - but do you really want to carry skis and a 2nd pair of boots over vegetated Mt Buggery and other peaks?
The only skiier in this group did ski 6km+ along the Speculation Rd back towards Cobbler Lake - the service road / fire trail was full-width, deep coverage to 1350m ASL.
1658638538744.png
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

Not your average unconventional eccentric.
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The snow surface was excellent - but do you really want to carry skis and a 2nd pair of boots over vegetated Mt Buggery and other peaks?
The only skiier in this group did ski 6km+ along the Speculation Rd back towards Cobbler Lake - the service road / fire trail was full-width, deep coverage to 1350m ASL.
1658638538744.png
I have walked all of the Terrain from Lake Cobbler to Mt McDonald.The Speculation Jeep track from Mt .Spec. To Lake Cobbler does not always get enough snow to be skiable.So in that sense you were fortunate.
The horrible gap and the scramble up or down mount Speculation in full snow would have been quite an adventure.
Well done.
I Have wondered what the area above the tree line on mount Cobbler would be like to ski on.
 
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