The Jindabyne thread..

Telemark Phat

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Saw some commentary saying it sold 2 years back for 750k. Full rebuild apparently but that price. On just 5 acres……Less than 5 mins from our farm. I thought I had a base idea of property values locally (nearby) but nope. No idea.
How much is acres in a real unit of area? As opposed to a retarded English unit of area?
 
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Donza

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Nidecker

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I heard that they tested positive at a local
Medical centre, not the Covid testing centre at the hospital.
30 plus people quarantined and the medical centre closed.
Will see what happens from here.

Why why why after 18months of this do people still go to pharmacies Drs and hospitals with cold and flu symptoms.

Call ahead? Obey the signs on the doors of these establishments? You might just have Covid!

The mind boggles at the stupidity...............
 
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Marty McSly

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There was an article I read a few days ago that stated that Australians have saved about $36B in not travelling O/S and that many have turned that into property purchases.
It's incredibly hard to pick a likely sale price at present.

I'm talking with an agent about selling a house. She took one similar to auction about 10 days ago, with a price guide of 630-700K, which she thought was aggressive. Bidding ran to 808K. :eek:
 
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Billy_Buttons

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It's incredibly hard to pick a likely sale price at present.

I'm talking with an agent about selling a house. She took one similar to auction about 10 days ago, with a price guide of 630-700K, which she thought was aggressive. Bidding ran to 808K. :eek:
Yep, it's nuts out there.
 
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Snow Blowey

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I really recommend this 6min video on car parking economics. Note the strong parallels between car-dominated American cities and Jindabyne.



The solution generally involves building more walkable developments close to all the amenities in town, and to good public transport. Gotta get off the hamster wheel. Cars themselves are not bad, but not having any alternatives to car travel is unhealthy in lots of ways.

Living in units is not desirable until travel becomes a pain in the arse. Towns like Jindabyne are a long way from that. Even our capital cities are marginal.

The developers aren't doing anyone any favours. Just maximising profit of the development. The losses are born by the first owners who buy a shiny new house in what is a street of shiny new houses which quickly becomes alum like with vehicles and unkept gardens dominating the streetscape. In my area there is very little if any capital gain in the first 5 years.

Happy to not be have been in a high density environment during lockdown. Not happy to give up cars any time soon.
 

Dropbear

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Living in units is not desirable until travel becomes a pain in the arse. Towns like Jindabyne are a long way from that. Even our capital cities are marginal.

Apartments aren't everyone's cup of tea, but they don't have to be. Having genuine choices for different types of places to live in is the important thing.

Besides, it shouldn't be a binary choice between houses and apartments, but that's all we're offered at the moment. Plenty of country towns - like Goulburn or Dubbo - have terrace houses, for example.

And every person who lives in an apartment or terrace house close to the centre of town is someone who isn't living in another unsustainable cookie cutter house out on the fringes...

The developers aren't doing anyone any favours. Just maximising profit of the development. The losses are born by the first owners who buy a shiny new house in what is a street of shiny new houses which quickly becomes alum like with vehicles and unkept gardens dominating the streetscape.

Oh definitely! Couldn't agree more!

But there are also various kinds of development that are not developer-led. Baugruppen ('building groups') are a big thing in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria.

The Australian equivalent - Nightingale developments - are going off like the proverbial frogs in socks in Melbourne, but we don't yet have any of those in NSW yet.

These owner-led developments are far cheaper than developer-led models because they cut out the developers, the real estate agents, the display suites, and all the rest.

1631107021458.png


Happy to not be have been in a high density environment during lockdown. Not happy to give up cars any time soon.

Yep, some of those places haven't been as resilient in others, like the tower blocks with long lift rides. But some of the older walk-ups and the 50's modernist blocks with outdoor walkways have been alright.

Don't worry, you can keep your car. But everyone who walks, rides, or catches the bus is someone that isn't driving the car in front of you! ;)
 

climberman

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Apartments aren't everyone's cup of tea, but they don't have to be. Having genuine choices for different types of places to live in is the important thing.

Besides, it shouldn't be a binary choice between houses and apartments, but that's all we're offered at the moment. Plenty of country towns - like Goulburn or Dubbo - have terrace houses, for example.

And every person who lives in an apartment or terrace house close to the centre of town is someone who isn't living in another unsustainable cookie cutter house out on the fringes...



Oh definitely! Couldn't agree more!

But there are also various kinds of development that are not developer-led. Baugruppen ('building groups') are a big thing in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria.

The Australian equivalent - Nightingale developments - are going off like the proverbial frogs in socks in Melbourne, but we don't yet have any of those in NSW yet.

These owner-led developments are far cheaper than developer-led models because they cut out the developers, the real estate agents, the display suites, and all the rest.

1631107021458.png




Yep, some of those places haven't been as resilient in others, like the tower blocks with long lift rides. But some of the older walk-ups and the 50's modernist blocks with outdoor walkways have been alright.

Don't worry, you can keep your car. But everyone who walks, rides, or catches the bus is someone that isn't driving the car in front of you! ;)
The ‘missing middle’. A constant challenge for Sydney (and many other similar places).

If an LGA has no parking minimum for such developments, the developers can make a decision about how saleable they think car spaces are. They add a huge amount to construction time and costs. It also helps the developers’ traffic planning in a DA and their s94 contributions. A typical residence generates 5 or so vehicle movements a day, not having to add that saves a shit tonne on contributions because less road upgrades are required to be paid for.

Part of the approach is just about making it ‘less easy’ to drive. If you have to walk 150m to a carpark to get your car, other forms of travel become more likely.

If the developers didn’t think they would sell, they wouldn’t do it.

For residential housing development (housing estates etc), developers build road networks to the minimum required. Why wouldn’t they? If the minimum isn’t enough, planning authorities should change the minimum.
 

VSG

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Apartments aren't everyone's cup of tea, but they don't have to be. Having genuine choices for different types of places to live in is the important thing.

Besides, it shouldn't be a binary choice between houses and apartments, but that's all we're offered at the moment. Plenty of country towns - like Goulburn or Dubbo - have terrace houses, for example.

And every person who lives in an apartment or terrace house close to the centre of town is someone who isn't living in another unsustainable cookie cutter house out on the fringes...



Oh definitely! Couldn't agree more!

But there are also various kinds of development that are not developer-led. Baugruppen ('building groups') are a big thing in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria.

The Australian equivalent - Nightingale developments - are going off like the proverbial frogs in socks in Melbourne, but we don't yet have any of those in NSW yet.

These owner-led developments are far cheaper than developer-led models because they cut out the developers, the real estate agents, the display suites, and all the rest.

1631107021458.png




Yep, some of those places haven't been as resilient in others, like the tower blocks with long lift rides. But some of the older walk-ups and the 50's modernist blocks with outdoor walkways have been alright.

Don't worry, you can keep your car. But everyone who walks, rides, or catches the bus is someone that isn't driving the car in front of you! ;)
WTF is that? where?
 
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Telezacski

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One of the arguments against car parks is that they have been used in certain planning scenarios to separate the haves from the have not’s.

A large parking allocation increases the cost of the property and rules many people out of buying. Take a new estate in say east Jindy and add a two car garage minimum, add set backs and then the “planning” cost, the component of the cost of the property is huge.
 
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skifree

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One of the arguments against car parks is that they have been used in certain planning scenarios to separate the haves from the have not’s.

A large parking allocation increases the cost of the property and rules many people out of buying. Take a new estate in say east Jindy and add a two car garage minimum, add set backs and then the “planning” cost, the component of the cost of the property is huge.
And the community cost of cars on narrow streets?
 

Telezacski

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And the community cost of cars on narrow streets?
So earlier in the discussion I offered you a solution of a house at a quarter of the cost and you said I’m happy; but what if that cost came at the cost of a car space?
 

skifree

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And the community costs of roads?
But they get turned from roads to car parks.

I live in a suburb with historically narrow streets and a lot of housing stock built pre car. So most of the cars parked on the street are locals who live in the street. The side effect is it is bloody hard to get in or out of the driveway due to parked cars, there is no where for guests or delivery or maintenance tradesmen to park. And when there is an overflow of parking from nearby shops (that walking distance thing) the situation is worse. The rubbish, recycling and green waste pickup trucks sometimes are able to do their jobs.

A few years ago we built a development that had one lane (not one way) street and 14 apartments without car parks. The same issues above are occurring.

It's not helpful to turn roads into full time car parks for residents.
 

skifree

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So earlier in the discussion I offered you a solution of a house at a quarter of the cost and you said I’m happy; but what if that cost came at the cost of a car space?

For me it would depend on if I needed a car. But I'm an exception to be able to think this way. For the most of Australia life without a car is unthinkable. And for not that many less life without 2 cars is unthinkable.

There is a growing number of young people who are living without cars but there is a solid shift of them to be car owners once they start a family.
 

Telezacski

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But they get turned from roads to car parks.

I live in a suburb with historically narrow streets and a lot of housing stock built pre car. So most of the cars parked on the street are locals who live in the street. The side effect is it is bloody hard to get in or out of the driveway dues to parked cars, there is no where for guests or delivery or maintenance tradesmen to park. And when there is an overflow of parking from nearby shops (that walking distance thing) the situation is worse. The rubbish, recycling and green waste pickup trucks sometimes are able to do their jobs.

A few years ago we built a development that had one lane (not one way) street and 14 apartments without car parks. The same issues above are occurring.

It's not helpful to turn roads into full time car parks for residents.
Which goes back to removing the need for cars (says the bloke with two cars).

I understand your argument and I’ve seen it in Canberra in the northern suburbs where my driveway is wider than most streets. But interestingly Canberra choose to provide a tram rather than spend the money on upgrading the roads to these suburbs as upgrading the roads was only going to make the situation worse.

Mountain towns provide a unique scenario, we often need to take a road to get to the town but often then park our cars up.
 

Telezacski

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For me it would depend on if I needed a car. But I'm an exception to be able to think this way. For the most of Australia life without a car is unthinkable. And for not that many less life without 2 cars is unthinkable.

There is a growing number of young people who are living without cars but there is a solid shift of them to be car owners once they start a family.
I get the life without a car thing, for many it really helps them get ahead financially as they don’t get stuck in the new car round about paying hundreds a month for a car. Many of this generation are then happy to buy an older car as they value it less and just use it weekends and for longer journeys.


back to mtn towns

If we offered accommodation at thousands of dollars off mid season but you had no car space or had to park at East Jindy and get a bus into town and then used the new bus service to the snow, plenty of people would jump at this.
 

skull

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Which goes back to removing the need for cars (says the bloke with two cars).
I spent years with no car and then when my wife moved in we were still mostly only a single car between us. However it was a fair bit easier riding my push bike 20km or getting the bus to work then it would be lugging a family with skiing gear and other items onto a bus from a central town parking area.

Even now as a two car house, my vehicle (the van) would only be used on weekends as I prefer to walk to work. Even when I was out at Woden and Tuggers I had a preference to ride but that is more I don't enjoy driving to work. I even walked to work a few times from the inner south to Woden up and over red hill.
 

BlueHue

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I spent years with no car and then when my wife moved in we were still mostly only a single car between us. However it was a fair bit easier riding my push bike 20km or getting the bus to work then it would be lugging a family with skiing gear and other items onto a bus from a central town parking area.

Even now as a two car house, my vehicle (the van) would only be used on weekends as I prefer to walk to work. Even when I was out at Woden and Tuggers I had a preference to ride but that is more I don't enjoy driving to work. I even walked to work a few times from the inner south to Woden up and over red hill.
In Sydney we had one car largely used on weekends. I walked to the station via school and day care. Two cars living on outskirts of Jindabyne, no choice really but get the layout, planning controls etc right and town folk could get away with one.

With SAP and Cooma airport I wonder about idea above of overnight parking out of town near East Jindabyne coupled with bus route from Cooma via airport, berridale, east Jindy, tyrolean, a few stops in town and out along Barry Way to station and surrounds. Really needs the Cooma link though for town folk to ever become careless, but sucj a bus route would have enough lines of use to potentially pick up reasonable patronage with the right set up. East Jindy stop could also link into pathway link to shared foreshore trail to allow tourists to ride out and bus back.
 
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skifree

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If we offered accommodation at thousands of dollars off mid season but you had no car space or had to park at East Jindy and get a bus into town and then used the new bus service to the snow, plenty of people would jump at this.

Some as opposed to plenty. Just as some people do the camp at Island Bend thing.

Check the price of the cars in the car park, these people don't know what a bus is never mind catch one.

Skiing is a predominantly a wealthy persons recreation, this is changing with a rise in the Australian Standard of Living, but that also comes with ownership of more stuff like cars, 2nd cars, boats, and so on.

I can see the new bus service trialled this year will go to work well for a small number of skiers when we have a slightly more normal season, very likely next year.

It would take a dramatic change in road and car park management (basically closing both) to get the bus service to be really really cranking.
 

gareth_oau

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Some ski towns are charging rates based on usage of the property so owner occ, then what they call a dark tax (properties owned but not permanently used or rented), then tax on rentals, basically a gst levy.

the idea is any tax levied funds social housing for staff.

the interesting point was that their is no golden solution as every scenario has major issues. For instance one town (maybe Aspen) has laws on the usage of properties so some homes can’t be let out, the issue with these is that they are a quarter of the value of equivalent homes so people aren’t seeing the gains or nest egg equity others get.
that also exists in Sun Peaks, where only some of the homes can be made available for short term rentals. As there is strong demand for property in SP and very limited supply, this hasnt caused any disparity in values.
 
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Jacko4650

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Why why why after 18months of this do people still go to pharmacies Drs and hospitals with cold and flu symptoms.

Call ahead? Obey the signs on the doors of these establishments? You might just have Covid!

The mind boggles at the stupidity...............
Worse, we send all the healthy people to the same places for preventative vax shots! I picked up a very annoying cold that lasted about 2 weeks at the Jindy Medical centre getting my second jab.
 
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telecrag

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Apartments aren't everyone's cup of tea, but they don't have to be. Having genuine choices for different types of places to live in is the important thing.
In Canberra right now, it will cost you maybe $700K for the worst house, in the worst suburb. But you can buy a brand new apartment in a city centre starting from $350K.

The "choice" is happening.
 

skichanger

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The ‘missing middle’. A constant challenge for Sydney (and many other similar places).

If an LGA has no parking minimum for such developments, the developers can make a decision about how saleable they think car spaces are. They add a huge amount to construction time and costs. It also helps the developers’ traffic planning in a DA and their s94 contributions. A typical residence generates 5 or so vehicle movements a day, not having to add that saves a shit tonne on contributions because less road upgrades are required to be paid for.

Part of the approach is just about making it ‘less easy’ to drive. If you have to walk 150m to a carpark to get your car, other forms of travel become more likely.

If the developers didn’t think they would sell, they wouldn’t do it.

For residential housing development (housing estates etc), developers build road networks to the minimum required. Why wouldn’t they? If the minimum isn’t enough, planning authorities should change the minimum.
The fundamental problem with this is having other transport options. So where we are in Sydney, 2 buses a day. Where we are in rural NSW, no public transport at all.

The whole public transport situation is another situation where the have nots subsidise the haves. And now you want to make it 'less easy' to drive.

And I thought the state govt decided on planning rules and the LGAs just enforced them.
 
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BlueHue

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How does Zermatt get its wealthy in in manner to their liking, or do they train it like everybody else.

For me if you are going to do the pedestrian friendly minimum car thing in town centre for Jindy, they've got to go all in. Half assed is half assed. Buses, paths and bike tracks is the culture.
 
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