The Jindabyne thread..

Billy_Buttons

Part of the Furniture
Ski Pass
Mar 25, 2011
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So, studio apartments are now half a mil? Well, there you go eh....

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dawooduck

relaxed and comfortable
Ski Pass
Oct 26, 2002
72,635
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I need to stop pining for the Jindabyne I used to know. It's dead and buried. Glad I moved when I did
Real Estate prices are nuts in many places not just Jindy, rural land is at a premium everywhere. USA, Canada included.

Jindy "came of age" around 2015, finally found some vibrancy and inclusion.

A recent comment from new arrivals

so happy we are here, living in last rural place all the locals had been there 100yrs and it was difficult to get stuff done or meet people, people here are much more inclusive and interesting.
 
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catzizme

Hard Yards
Apr 5, 2020
26
42
68
So, studio apartments are now half a mil? Well, there you go eh....

Actually nuts! We stayed in one of those apartments this year because it was $150 not $1500 a night and couldn't believe people usually pay what they do because they're so run down and dated. Although we could say the same for a couple of other places we stayed too.

I hope the owner knows that there (assumed) 4x4 wont fit in the purchased carspot, because the hatchback only just squeezes in.
 

Undies

Superspreadin the lurve
Ski Pass
May 15, 2002
21,963
17,666
1,063
Top drawer
Yeah, it's a pretty strange old world.

When the place in Bogong went for $1.68 in July (3br upstairs, 3br downstairs) I was bummed we missed out on it, but figured there would be better pickings in the off season. But now that place looks like an absolute bargain. Kudos to those who snapped it up.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
68,402
43,775
1,563
Coastal suburban boonies.
Real Estate prices are nuts in many places not just Jindy, rural land is at a premium everywhere. USA, Canada included.
The local rag reckons that Port Stephens prices have risen 20% in the last year. That's the whole LGA which includes inland places like Raymond Terrace. Looking at the speed with which "Sold" stickers appear, I reckon that the actual bayside suburbs have probably risen more.
 
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Principal Douglas

Big Fan
Ski Pass
Mar 21, 2002
5,425
1,043
563
Orange, NSW
A recent comment from new arrivals

so happy we are here, living in last rural place all the locals had been there 100yrs and it was difficult to get stuff done or meet people, people here are much more inclusive and interesting.

This was true 20 years ago. The annual winter influx brought with it people of all different walks of life. Their attitude? Presence? whatever, even though most left by October, made Jindy a much more interesting, inclusive country town than most.

When I first stayed there for the summer I had new friends within days, everyone knew everyone. If you couldn't find full time work over the summer it didn't matter because rent was cheap AF. Buying was cheap (although I regrettably never did that). It was a nice, friendly little town. I don't think that's the case now IMO.
 

snowgum

A Local
Ski Pass
May 4, 1999
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Where does this money come from! We finished building our house less than a year ago. If someone else had built it and we went to the bank today for a loan to buy it at the current market value we'd get laughed out of the bank.

Well according to the Panorama Papers (aired a couple of weeks ago on ABC) - various shell companies are scoping up property and assets, all around the world to hide the wealth of national leaders and wealthy folk (as if?).

Australia is part of this - 400 made the list. The program claimed that these tax minimisation / shell company schemes are an important contributor to the Aussie and world property bubble. Fwiw: An entertaining 45 minutes - for the ordinary average income PAYE types - it’s gobsmacking as to what the top 1%+ do to hide their wealth. (Let’s hope Josh was watching?) ;)
 
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Telezacski

A Local
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Mar 19, 2010
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Well according to the Panorama Papers (aired a couple of weeks ago on ABC) - various shell companies are scoping up property and assets, all around the world to hide the wealth of national leaders and wealthy folk (as if?).

Australia is part of this - 400 made the list. The program claimed that these tax minimisation / shell company schemes are an important contributor to the Aussie and world property bubble. Fwiw: An entertaining 45 minutes - for the ordinary average income PAYE types - it’s gobsmacking as to what the top 1%+ do to hide their wealth. (Let’s hope Josh was watching?) ;)

My understanding of the papers is that yes 400 Aussies are listed, but this relates to their involvement in overseas companies in overseas tax havens. I am yet to read a single report which suggests any of these entities have purchased property in Australia.

In fact I would suggest we are the least likely of any jurisdiction such companies would invest. Aside from requiring FIRB approval which is both costly and results in additional scrutiny we also require a tax certificate on sale with the resulting capital gains held back by the lawyer.

The money is coming from cheap debt, a Sydney sider 12 months ago with a $2m debt, refinances from 4 to 2 percent. Then borrows an extra $800k and buys in Jindabyne. Overall their repayments have not changed, their debt is up but so are their assets, so their overall financial position hasn’t changed.

So the issue with Jindy is dark homes or second properties which sit vacant for large amounts of the year.
 

BlueHue

One of Us
Ski Pass
Apr 17, 2003
3,235
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South of Cooma
The money is coming from cheap debt, a Sydney sider 12 months ago with a $2m debt, refinances from 4 to 2 percent. Then borrows an extra $800k and buys in Jindabyne. Overall their repayments have not changed, their debt is up but so are their assets, so their overall financial position hasn’t changed.

So the issue with Jindy is dark homes or second properties which sit vacant for large amounts of the year.
I contemplated doing this at one point with fairly modest resources simply to buy the neighbours vacant block of land after refinancing. Numbers stacked up.

Would make for some interesting developments in real estate if there was to be a significant rise in interest rates.

For something like Jindabynes dark homes, would they sell or simply flip to holiday letting their house and renting to make up the shortfall?
 

robbo mcs

A Local
Ski Pass
Sep 1, 2008
5,093
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Kenthurst / Jindabyne
The money is coming from cheap debt, a Sydney sider 12 months ago with a $2m debt, refinances from 4 to 2 percent. Then borrows an extra $800k and buys in Jindabyne. Overall their repayments have not changed, their debt is up but so are their assets, so their overall financial position hasn’t changed.

So the issue with Jindy is dark homes or second properties which sit vacant for large amounts of the year.

Interesting you should mention debt. Out of interest, the Cascades buildings are almost identical to the Horizons/Rydges buildings, basically same design. However, the studios at Cascades have a slightly bigger hallway, and that pushes it just over 50sq/m, whereas the Rydges ones are just under 50.

The agent for Henleys rang me a month ago, just after a Horizons studio sold for $370k, which was a record price. She told me about this Cascades one coming up. I asked her how much she thought, given it was not as good location, less facilities, older building, but lower strata etc. She told me basically none of that mattered too much, the big deal was it was over 50sq/m. She said that makes financing and borrowing much easier, less hassle. The banks use 50sq/m as the lower threshold for lending, so they expected a very good price. Looks lime they got it :rolleyes:
 

dawooduck

relaxed and comfortable
Ski Pass
Oct 26, 2002
72,635
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So the issue with Jindy is dark homes or second properties which sit vacant for large amounts of the year.

A fair amount of truth in Jindy town in that regard but also now much more utilised into "grey homes" than they once where.

Our former central coast beach town went from 80% "dark homes" to 80% "bright homes" in 12yrs.

IMHO as every town evolves there is a sweet spot between nothing happening and time to move and I think Jindy is right in the middle of that as sweet spot.
 
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Jonathan_P

One of Us
Ski Pass
Dec 22, 2018
1,710
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So, studio apartments are now half a mil? Well, there you go eh....

I rented a place for a week in that building on the ground floor.

+ Clean, tidy, large enough space, undercover parking (albeit a bit tight)
- Noisy often till 3 or 4am in the morning and hallway smelled like weed (apparently that’s normal in Jindy) :oops::)
 

Telezacski

A Local
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Mar 19, 2010
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. She told me basically none of that mattered too much, the big deal was it was over 50sq/m. She said that makes financing and borrowing much easier, less hassle. The banks use 50sq/m as the lower threshold for lending, so they expected a very good price. Looks lime they got it :rolleyes:

This part is incorrect and she should stick to real estate not lending. The transition point is 40sqm not including balcony or car space.

But she is probably right in that you know the difference in the units, the average punter won’t, so when she advertises 50sqm people will assume it is bigger even though the usable space is smaller.

For which the solution is more supply.

Agree supply is the issue everywhere.

If you look at Canberra we have fewer than 1000 properties listed for sale, that’s a massive supply side issue.

For something like Jindabynes dark homes, would they sell or simply flip to holiday letting their house and renting to make up the shortfall?

I’ve wondered this as well, the issue with dark homes is that those currently being let, who need to let to afford the repayments could get caught out if all of a sudden extra properties hit the market for peak periods to help with the mortgage.

A fair amount of truth in Jindy town in that regard but also now much more utilised into "grey homes" than they once where.

Our former central coast beach town went from 80% "dark homes" to 80% "bright homes" in 12yrs.

IMHO as every town evolves there is a sweet spot between nothing happening and time to move and I think Jindy is right in the middle of that as sweet spot.

The issue with Jindy as a retirement zone is that it’s pricing itself out, Tassie used to be the place people retired to, selling out of their house on the mainland then buying a new home with $$$ to spare.

Now a 2 bed in Jindy is matching Canberra and this isn’t sustainable. Central coast had Sydney siders shift there and travel for work, I can’t see Jindy holding on.
 

dawooduck

relaxed and comfortable
Ski Pass
Oct 26, 2002
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We are only talking very low numbers of semi retirees moving to Jindabyne. Not even a central coast suburb amount.

Prices are nuts everywhere desirable.
 
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Jellybeans

Part of the Furniture
Ski Pass
Aug 24, 2015
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Box Hill, VIC
Agree supply is the issue everywhere.

If you look at Canberra we have fewer than 1000 properties listed for sale, that’s a massive supply side issue.


I’ve wondered this as well, the issue with dark homes is that those currently being let, who need to let to afford the repayments could get caught out if all of a sudden extra properties hit the market for peak periods to help with the mortgage.


The issue with Jindy as a retirement zone is that it’s pricing itself out, Tassie used to be the place people retired to, selling out of their house on the mainland then buying a new home with $$$ to spare.

Now a 2 bed in Jindy is matching Canberra and this isn’t sustainable. Central coast had Sydney siders shift there and travel for work, I can’t see Jindy holding on.
To be fair, Tassie is pricing itself out as well. Of course there are Australia-wide issues with property prices. Councils could of course do something, but it runs against the interest of their local ratepayer base. So we go in this endless circle of “there is no solution”, when there is, it just means loosening planning regulations.
 

Telezacski

A Local
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Mar 19, 2010
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To be fair, Tassie is pricing itself out as well. Of course there are Australia-wide issues with property prices. Councils could of course do something, but it runs against the interest of their local ratepayer base. So we go in this endless circle of “there is no solution”, when there is, it just means loosening planning regulations.

I don’t disagree on Tassie,

I think the issue with councils is they make so much from stamp duty it’s hard to break the cycle
 

Telezacski

A Local
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Mar 19, 2010
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Don't State Gov rather than council make money from stamp duty?
Sorry ACT comment our council is our state govt

Edit - but still most NSW councils would struggle to take action to reduce house prices (dark taxes etc) thus reducing state revenue and then put their hand out for more money.

I am not suggesting they shouldn’t I just feel the state politicians would tell them to bugger off
 

Jacko4650

One of Us
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May 15, 2014
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not happening now apparently, they are going to sell them individually.
Heard today that the 38 blocks available in the new estate in Berridale sold out in a few days at $245K ea, with another 30 people on a waiting list!
Heard this from chap who is developing 5 blocks on the other side of the road. He is obviously quite happy about the saleability of his bigger blocks once all of the Council and State approval processes are overcome. Talk about a hot property market!!!
 
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Billy_Buttons

Part of the Furniture
Ski Pass
Mar 25, 2011
12,003
12,200
813
Heard today that the 38 blocks available in the new estate in Berridale sold out in a few days at $245K ea, with another 30 people on a waiting list!
Heard this from chap who is developing 5 blocks on the other side of the road. He is obviously quite happy about the saleability of his bigger blocks once all of the Council and State approval processes are overcome. Talk about a hot property market!!!
Goodbye to the country change everybody is looking for and welcome to ex-city pats en masse.
As the cities fill with new off-shore immigration, the city born are fleeing.
The new NSW Premier just announced that he wants 2 million foreigners to move to NSW within the next 5 years, to be on par with the post world war 2 immigration levels.
Regional BOOM coming at you.
 

skichanger

A Local
Jan 1, 2012
9,201
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chaletmyoko.com
Heard today that the 38 blocks available in the new estate in Berridale sold out in a few days at $245K ea, with another 30 people on a waiting list!
Heard this from chap who is developing 5 blocks on the other side of the road. He is obviously quite happy about the saleability of his bigger blocks once all of the Council and State approval processes are overcome. Talk about a hot property market!!!
Yep commented earlier that there were only 2 maybes left by the time they publicly announced it.
 
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snowgum

A Local
Ski Pass
May 4, 1999
6,410
5,014
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vic
Goodbye to the country change everybody is looking for and welcome to ex-city pats en masse.
As the cities fill with new off-shore immigration, the city born are fleeing.
The new NSW Premier just announced that he wants 2 million foreigners to move to NSW within the next 5 years, to be on par with the post world war 2 immigration levels.
Regional BOOM coming at you.

I thought I heard something similar (2m over 5 years) but it was a comment made one of the business lobbies (BCA or similar?) and appiled to all of Australian (I believe) not just NSW.

As for the new Prem taking up this challenge - I’d imagine building around 7-800 thousand new dwellings in 5 years would be nigh impossible. The new builders would need to be living in the unfinished housing - or a tent out the back?

I don’t doubt certain trades are needed urgently but I can’t help wondering if they’re trying to reinvigorate the property ponzi.

Maybe the idea is to centralise, but you need the dwellings before the immigrants. Something we rarely do here. Crazy!
 

Dropbear

One of Us
Aug 4, 2010
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[...dark homes...] For which the solution is more supply.

Sorry, trying to inflate supply won't work to reduce the number of dark homes. This is why:
  1. Governments* don't have a strong influence on supply... unless the government invests in public housing, which this one doesn't. However, but property developers do have a strong influence on it - because once they've bought, they can sit and wait for the most opportune conditions to develop and sell.

  2. Property developers won't ever increase supply to the point that property values stop rising. That would ruin their business.

  3. So when property values rise, then demand rises to invest in property, because it is valued as an investment product that is accumulating value (more than the its value as a dwelling).

  4. More investment in property means more investor-based property management decisions, such as short term letting, or not bothering to let it out at all since the rent pales in comparison to the capital appreciation.

The main solution that will actually work is to replace stamp duty with a land tax. That would put the incentive on the owner to use the property to its fullest extent... or sell it. That would directly lead to fewer dark homes.
 

Telezacski

A Local
Ski Pass
Mar 19, 2010
6,966
13,711
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Sorry, trying to inflate supply won't work to reduce the number of dark homes. This is why:
  1. Governments* don't have a strong influence on supply... unless the government invests in public housing, which this one doesn't. However, but property developers do have a strong influence on it - because once they've bought, they can sit and wait for the most opportune conditions to develop and sell.

  2. Property developers won't ever increase supply to the point that property values stop rising. That would ruin their business.

  3. So when property values rise, then demand rises to invest in property, because it is valued as an investment product that is accumulating value (more than the its value as a dwelling).

  4. More investment in property means more investor-based property management decisions, such as short term letting, or not bothering to let it out at all since the rent pales in comparison to the capital appreciation.

The main solution that will actually work is to replace stamp duty with a land tax. That would put the incentive on the owner to use the property to its fullest extent... or sell it. That would directly lead to fewer dark homes.

So the answer is supply but supply will never work, I agree with your points.

In particular dark tax. Jindabyne property is booming because the shortage of rental properties pushes rental costs up. Return on investment increases making property attractive for investors. Low interest rates have facilitated the buy up of property as second residence as people realise they can have the second home with no extra repayments. This pull more property from the rental market placing more pressure on it and the upward spiral commences.
 
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Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
68,402
43,775
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Coastal suburban boonies.
Sorry, trying to inflate supply won't work to reduce the number of dark homes. This is why:
  1. Governments* don't have a strong influence on supply... unless the government invests in public housing, which this one doesn't. However, but property developers do have a strong influence on it - because once they've bought, they can sit and wait for the most opportune conditions to develop and sell.

  2. Property developers won't ever increase supply to the point that property values stop rising. That would ruin their business.

  3. So when property values rise, then demand rises to invest in property, because it is valued as an investment product that is accumulating value (more than the its value as a dwelling).

  4. More investment in property means more investor-based property management decisions, such as short term letting, or not bothering to let it out at all since the rent pales in comparison to the capital appreciation.

The main solution that will actually work is to replace stamp duty with a land tax. That would put the incentive on the owner to use the property to its fullest extent... or sell it. That would directly lead to fewer dark homes.
Second homes are already subject to land tax. The ACT has already moved away from an upfront stamp duty to an annual charge. NSW is seriously discussing it and may already have done it.
 

skull

One of Us
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Jun 4, 2017
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ACT has already moved away from an upfront stamp duty to an annual charge.

With where the market is atm there is basically no difference in stamp duty between NSW and ACT. At 1.2m you pay less than $1000 in the ACT however one rates payment will negate that difference and once you’re over 1.3m stamp duty in the ACT is more expensive.
 
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Telezacski

A Local
Ski Pass
Mar 19, 2010
6,966
13,711
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Second homes are already subject to land tax. The ACT has already moved away from an upfront stamp duty to an annual charge. NSW is seriously discussing it and may already have done it.

Not strictly true, we are moving away but it won’t be until 2032 that the ACT achieves the final stage of no stamp duty.
 
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telecrag

Old n' Crusty
Ski Pass
Oct 12, 2007
33,619
52,080
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Heard today that the 38 blocks available in the new estate in Berridale sold out in a few days at $245K ea, with another 30 people on a waiting list!
Heard this from chap who is developing 5 blocks on the other side of the road. He is obviously quite happy about the saleability of his bigger blocks once all of the Council and State approval processes are overcome. Talk about a hot property market!!!
Which one is Wayne?
 

DPS Driver

A Local
Jul 18, 2014
5,730
6,840
563
Jindy is still affordable. While property prices have increased there are still some rentals around at affordable prices.

We live on the south end of the Gold Coast and many of our friends kids are struggling to keep living in our area because rental prices have increased so much. They've been priced out of buying in the area, so they're now looking at buying in more affordable locations where they don't want to live, just to get into the market.

Unless they stay home with mum and dad, trying to get a rental on the south end of the gold coast in extremely difficult. Buying in the area, well that is another level altogether. Good for those of us who own property but it no longer offers any entry level properties.
 
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BlueHue

One of Us
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Apr 17, 2003
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46
South of Cooma
Jindy is still affordable. While property prices have increased there are still some rentals around at affordable prices.

We live on the south end of the Gold Coast and many of our friends kids are struggling to keep living in our area because rental prices have increased so much. They've been priced out of buying in the area, so they're now looking at buying in more affordable locations where they don't want to live, just to get into the market.

Unless they stay home with mum and dad, trying to get a rental on the south end of the gold coast in extremely difficult. Buying in the area, well that is another level altogether. Good for those of us who own property but it no longer offers any entry level properties.
Afforable is relative to one's means. The incomes for 'locals' in the area (and most other rural areas) are significantly less than the bigger regional cities and metro's, not to mention the bigger regional cities that have reasonable access to the jobs market in a nearby metro like Gold Coast does. I don't have the numbers of income vs cost of housing but I'd hypothesise that rental cost vs potential income is as tough a gig in Jindabyne and some other rural areas as it is in the metros.

As for buying in more afforable locations one does not want to live, that's just part of the game and has been for many years for entry level. I don't get this expectation that one will simply get to buy where they want off the bat first time around. We spent 10 years living in Western Sydney's Bongsville to accumulate the necessary equity to make the move to the Jindabyne area and even then we only just squeaked in in time. If someone was trying to go from Western Sydney to a more desirable area of Sydney that'd be a much tougher gig again.

Not trying to say Jindabyne's got it worse, it's the same as many regional/rural areas particularly along the coast but afforable relative to the means for most locals it no longer is. Berridale's nice though.
 

Dropbear

One of Us
Aug 4, 2010
669
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Northern Beaches
Second homes are already subject to land tax. The ACT has already moved away from an upfront stamp duty to an annual charge. NSW is seriously discussing it and may already have done it.

Although we don't have a land tax (yet) in NSW, the Treasurer new Premier has talked about creating one in the past.

IIRC, his proposed model for it is stupid though. It involves the next buyer of any property opting to pay either stamp duty or land tax depending on their preferences. Any properties with stamp duty paid upfront remain exempt from the land tax indefinitely. But once any property opts into land tax, it then stays that system even if it is sold again.

So for example, a person who buys a property with the intention to hold it long term can choose to pay stamp duty once upfront, and save a lifetime's worth of property tax on it.

It basically disincentivises the transfer of property ownership if it can be avoided, encourages some houses to become and to stay 'dark' long term rather than be sold, and reinforces systemic economic inequities - all of which is the opposite of what a land tax is supposed to do.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
68,402
43,775
1,563
Coastal suburban boonies.
It basically disincentivises the transfer of property ownership if it can be avoided, encourages some houses to become and to stay 'dark' long term rather than be sold, and reinforces systemic economic inequities - all of which is the opposite of what a land tax is supposed to do.
Why? If I decide to sell I don't give a rats whether my purchaser chooses upfront duty or an annual tax. There might be a premium for sale of a tax-free property to a cashed up purchaser, but the premium will be less than the amount of the duty. I suppose people will be doing a NPV on the tax cash flow and doing their sums.
 
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