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The Likes and Disappointments of Falls Creek

Discussion in 'Falls Creek' started by Dos, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    No offense towards Falls Creek lovers, but this is my true opinion based on what I experienced visiting Falls Creek today.

    The disappointments
    =============

    Village
    --------
    I was disappointed when I arrived. In fact, it was more of being surprised than disappointed. I didn't expect Falls Creek to look like this from what I had seen from Trail Map and photos. I’d thought Falls Creek village would be situated on a relatively flat valley between Sun Valley and The Maze and that the Gully chair was merely an access lift to the Bowl.

    Vertical Drop
    ---------------
    I’d heard many people said Falls Creek is quite flat when it comes to vertical drop, but 360 metres in stat page doesn’t seem too flat. I was dumb struck when I saw the real slope. It does indeed look flat.

    Length of Runs
    -----------------
    As a result of low vertical drop, most runs are short that it would take less than a minute to complete. The Wishing Well + Last Tango combo run look long on the map, but from what I see Last Tango would be on left-side bang which would make it uncomfortable to ride, unless the grooming team can make it level.

    Some Advanced Runs Seem Over-graded
    ------------------------------------------------
    For example, runs around Summit Chair are steep, but seeing that they’re so well groomed and level are they really worth diamond?
    Also most runs on the Sun Valley are blue, but for that level of steepness it’d look more green than blue to me, unless they have sections that are challenging.

    Lifts
    -----
    Most chair lifts are fixed grip and short. I watched the Summit Chair running today. It was slow. Even when they were speeding it up it was still slow. I felt like it was the speed when I rode the old Merritt Double chair at Thredbo. Short lifts means more time spend at lift queues.

    Beginner Bowl/First Timer
    ------------------------------
    Beginner Bowl is small, short and only have magic carpet.

    Access Road
    ---------------
    It’s 30km of dangerous, steep, narrow, winding road to Falls Creek from Mt Beauty as opposed to easy drive on wide road from Jindy to Thredbo and Perisher. Snow Chain is rarely needed at Thredbo. This can be a barrier for some people like my friend who went there with me today. He was scared chit less of the cliff beside the road.

    Village Road
    ---------------
    It’s hard to navigate within the village. In adequate clear signs and most roads are narrow (with car parking on the side) and are dead-end.


    The Likes
    ======

    No Entry Fee outside winter
    --------------------------------
    There is no fee to access Falls Creek (and Hotham) outside winter period as opposed to $16 per car at Kosciuzko National Park where Thredbo, Perisher and Charlotte Pass are located.

    Rocky Valley Dam
    ---------------------
    Large, beautiful alpine dam, surrounded by hills full of living and dead gum trees . Large lake means unlimited water for snowmaking!!!

    Village Location
    ------------------
    It situates on the hill overlooking the valley and part of the slopes. This means you can see beautiful mountains on the opposite side of valley. You only see the closest mountain at Thredbo village and Perisher. Although, for me, Hotham wins hands down in this regard.

    Access Road
    ---------------
    It’s 30km of dangerous, steep, narrow, winding road to Falls Creek from Mt Beauty as opposed to easy drive on wide road from Jindy to Thredbo and Perisher. This can be an exciting activity. I loved driving up there!!!


    Some Photos of Falls Creek in autumn
    ========================

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Dos, Mar 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2013
  2. Hully

    Hully One of Us

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    Not going to comment much on your personal opinions but a couple of clarifications for you...

    Summit Chair would have been running slow all day as it would have been at a speed for walk on walk off loading. In winter it is ski on/off only and runs a significantly faster speed.

    What you describe as the 'beginners bowl' is not the beginners area...it is carpet lift for the snow tube activity. Beginners area is at top of Falls Express chair and is serviced by 4 carpets of different lengths and closeby green terrain chair and beginner platter.

    Pity you won't be visiting as would love to see you ski most of the runs in under 1 minute [​IMG]

    Regarding the road, if you find Mt Beauty to Falls narrow, steep, dangerous and traumatic you had best stick to flatland sports and keep out of the mountains.

    Find it interesting that you seem to be looking for high end steep advanced terrain to match your ability yet comment that you want grooming team to provide a flat surface to allow a comfortable ride?
     
    #2 Hully, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2013
  3. TeleXC

    TeleXC Hard Yards

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    I think you've missed one of the most important 'likes' about falls creek, well it's probably my like but I'm sure a lot of others would agree; The cross country area at falls. I love how falls has such a great layout for cross country, The Nordic bowls a great trail head and great place for learners or meeting people, the trail groomers take a lot of care and are often out during day also, there's such a variety of trails of a good length and some amazing scenery
     
  4. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    [​IMG]
    I'm sorry, but to judge a snow resort with NO SNOW is quite amusing to me.

    e.g.
    Village: In winter that the village is located on the side of the hill gives it a unique charm when cover with snow.

    30km of dangerous, steep, narrow, winding road: [​IMG]. That road is a piece of cake!! Head across to Mt Hotham some time.....

    Some Advanced Runs Seem Over-graded: Go back in winter and see if you can hit the Summit at fast blue run speed [​IMG] There are rock outcrops up there, which are not "so well groomed and level"

    Village road: You don't drive there in winter!
     
    #4 Sandy, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  5. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think Dos is comparing it with what he's used to (ie: it's different to what I'm used to, therefore it's no good). To say that he didn't like the village because it's not flat - huh? It's ski-in ski-out. Couldn't have that if it was flat. Roads narrow - ummm - cars aren't on the roads in the winter. Roads are for skiers. Go back there in winter Dos - you're wrong on many counts.
     
  6. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Another thing missed is the great atmosphere at Falls n winter. It's a more relaxed and friendly vibe that the other resorts. Lift queues are IMHO shorter than other resorts too, especially if you are prepared to avoid the worst time/place combinations. when you can pretty much ski straight onto the lift, it doesn't matter if the runs are shorter. When I go to other resorts, I'm nearly always pissed off at how much time I have to spend in queues. The other advantage of shorter runs is that the base altitude is sufficient (especially in Sun Valley) to maintain good cover.

    While I would never disagree that the roads from Jindy to Thredbo or Perisher are easier than the road to Falls, it is not a "dangerous, steep, narrow, winding road". It is a pretty easy, if windy road, certainly easier than Harrietville-Hotham or Mirimbah-Buller.

    BTW Last Tango is just a road out of the maze, something to be endured rather than enjoyed. But when the maze is in good condition, the skiing there is magic.

    The groomed runs on summit are not deepest black (some would argue that no groomed runs are black). The ungroomed runs are challenging.

    The village is closed to cars in winter. most people figure the navigation pretty quickly - and when there's snow on the road, nearly everywhere is ski in/ski out
     
  7. TeleXC

    TeleXC Hard Yards

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    That is one of the best bits about falls, that the road around the village is snowed in, the back road also gets closed off which creates some good cross country skiing.

    I think seeing the village in summer/autumn can be a very differnt experience, runs without snow on them can be very hard to assess gradients, lengths. e.g bourqe street at Buller looks way to steep for a newbie run in summer than it does in winter. Maybe wait a few months till falls has cover.
     
  8. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think Dos needs to get out and see more resorts. In winter.
     
  9. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    First off, please don't get me wrong and a si ncerely apologise if anyone feel offended by what I posted and thank you for the clarification - I got wrong info from a guy at the bowl, I asked him what it was and he told me beginner bowl with carpet.

    Ps. I'm at Buller now and hard to type on mobile phone so I'll have to send small message several times.
     
  10. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    I'm also not saying Falls is superior or inferior to any other resort. I just made comment based on what I saw at that particular chance I had to visit it and I'm sure I'd love it in winter regardless.

    I'll try to respond to each point everyone pointed out and say my piece as to why I said so.
     
  11. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Hully,

    1. Chair speed. There was a period when there was nobody load/offload and they sped up the lift. It was considerably faster than speed with loading activities. Still being a fixed grip it can't be too fast.

    2. I didn't say the road scared me. I merely said it could be a factor for some people. My friends who came with me for example they were so scred they couldn't look out the window. And this is autumn. It'd be more scary in winter. If you read till the end of my post you'd see I siad I LOVED it.

    3. Length of run. I should have checked my post before sending. I meant to say runs on the Sun Valley side are short and note steep. I hadn't said I couldn't say for the Maze side cuz I didn't see it well, but it's somehow missing before I submit.

    I figured they are about 1km long so for competent intermediate skiers this could be done, after I recalculated, in about 2 minutes. My apology for this one too.

    4. I'll visit Falls Creek for sure. I know i'll love it. Maybe not this year, but I sure will. It's likely I won't drive up because I live in Sydney and using public transport and/or tour operator will suit me better.

    5. You got me wrong regarding steepness. I said the runs around Summit chair are well summer-groomed which make the surface quite level. Therefore, this make it easier to ride and I question them being black. Not that I want hard, but groomed.

    Also I'm by no mean a competent intermediate rider, more of upper beginner, but I can question the run even higher than my ability, can't I?
     
  12. absentskier

    absentskier Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Dos it isn't a matter of being offended. I am not remotely offended by anything you've said, it's just that many of your observations by their very nature bear no resemblance to the place in winter.

    I prefer Buller, but Falls has better snow and a better village atmosphere. When Falls is full ski in and out, it is very unique in Australia.

    Have fun Dos in the rest of this trip.
     
  13. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    TeleXC

    1. I can't like xc area because I don't know anything about xc.
     
  14. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Sandy,

    1. Yes, judging ski resort without snow is rIdiculous, but I use the same criteria for all resorts I visited on this trip: Thredbo, Falls Creek, Hotham, Dinner Plain, and Buller. Therefore if it's ridiculous it's for all of them to the same standard.

    2. I know the road is easier than Hotham. I went there too and had been there in winter. And that too I loved the road, not my friends though.

    You can't say the road isn't dangerous otherwise there wouldn't be caution signs and low speed limit all the way.

    Point being made here is it's harder than ones on the east side ie nsw resorts. This is one factor why fewer people go to hotham and falls creek than other comparable resorts with easier access. I'm sure many more will come if the road was easier.

    3. I missed the rocks. I didn't see them. Mainly grass. I guess I was wrong then. Although, shouldn't good snow fall at summit cover them all? There didn't seem to be any bIg rock.

    4. Village road. Oh my! Could I forget about this? Stupid me. Big big apomogy for this.
     
  15. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Teckel,

    1. No, I'm not like that. I'm always open too new things. Never troll (on purpose).

    2. Disappointed. I should have used a different word. What is it, I expect one thing then it turns out differently? Not that I didn't like it. It was just not I had expected from maps and photos. I didn't link the fact that it's all ski-in out with no car to being flat in my imagination. I didn't say I didn't like it. I even said the layout gives good view compared to nsw ones.

    3. Yes, I'd love to visit falls creek. I even asked for tour operators in my previous post a ski kaos no longer offer falls creek trip from sydney. I'll try mt best to visit falls creek in winter next year. This year i'm be based at Thredbo most trips and a week at Buller. Ah.. can't wait.
     
  16. Slushii

    Slushii Mostly missing in action... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Folks, I think it's great Dos has the courage to say what he thinks, so don't be too harsh on him.

    Sincerely expressed opinions (good or bad) are welcome, whereas delibrate trolling is not,so go ahead Dos, don't let the locals intimidate you. [​IMG]
     
    #16 Slushii, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2013
  17. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Currawog,

    1. Yes, winter atmosphere was missing. Even that, I absurdly hoped it'd snow a bit up top like it did at thredbo last week. So wanted to see snowfall.

    2. Lift queue at thredbo during peak season is so long. If it wasn't for longer runs, the queue would be unbarable. There aren't many places to avoid queues like perisher and other places with more lifts.

    3. I drove up Buller today. It was foggy. Other than that it wasn't to bad. There is road shoulder most of the times. This helps people who scare of height and cliff. I'd rate them from hard to easy in this order: Hotham, Falls Creek, Buller, Perisher, Thredbo. Part that give Falls ahead of Buller is the distance on mountain.
     
  18. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    One of the differences is that Falls Creek was never designed as a ski resort. It wasn't a site chosen for a ski resort. It was an accommodation town for workers on the hydro scheme. A couple of enterprising people misappropriated various poles and wire ropes etc from the hydro scheme to build some ski tows. The rest is history.
     
  19. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    #19 Charlie, Mar 31, 2013
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  20. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    [​IMG] @ Charlie
     
    #20 teckel, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2013
  21. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Been called worse
     
  22. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Sorry for that. Didn't know one letter was missing [​IMG]

    It was hard to type on mobile phone. It took me forever to type all these.
     
    #22 Dos, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2013
  23. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Thank you. I will. Had a great time at Buller today. My friends are not keen walkers and I didn't want to make them wait at the car park. so I didn't have a chance to go up the summit.

    I hope to be able to ride/ski at Falls Creek next year. Initially I planned to go there this winter, but Ski Kaos doesn't offer the trip so it's hard for me to organise thing for one person and not tear my wallet.

    My friends are working at Manfields so I changed my plan and head for Buller this season.
     
    #23 Dos, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  24. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Yes, I do, really do. I wish I had extra money for more travels.
     
    #24 Dos, Mar 31, 2013
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  25. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Thank you for your support. Yes, I believe in sincere opinion. It might be right, it might be wrong, or it might be amusing or absurd, but if people are happy to hear it, the right can be appreciated, the wrong can be corrected, and the lost can be guided back to the right track -- like this thread where many points of my opinions were corrected and clarified; thank you you guys again for that.
     
    #25 Dos, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  26. TeleXC

    TeleXC Hard Yards

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    Dos, I think it's great your visiting these places in the green season, they really need visitors out of the snow season. I did my fist out of season visit to a resort (Buller) this year, I was surprised at how nice and relaxing they are in summer / autumn. Good photos too. I'd love to ride my road bike up falls creek. There's another good green season initiative; The 7 peaks alpine ascent challenge.
     
    #26 TeleXC, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  27. JoeKing

    JoeKing Old n' Thrusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I too like to see those green photos. Keep em coming.

    No, I rather this than if you strapped on some skis, a gopro and posted the video.

    On second thought...
     
  28. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    I agree. Even without the snow, they are very nice and relaxing. I can stay at one of these resorts for weeks without getting bored, provided I can access the internet. Although, I still prefer snow to grass [​IMG]

    Oh I was surprised to see so many cyclists, young and old, cycling along the road to all three resorts in Victoria. I've never seen any doing the same to Thredbo or Perisher. I only saw bikes on top of the cars. There might be some, but I never see them.
     
    #28 Dos, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  29. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Even so, it was a good transformation. It is a lovely village.
     
    #29 Dos, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  30. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    It's a lovely place and nice sights and photos, but I still prefer white to green [​IMG]
     
    #30 Dos, Mar 31, 2013
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  31. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory - I'm currently sitting in a town in France that has been inhabited since the middle ages. Ski lifts are a relatively new occurrence, but I find it a million times more charming than some of the purpose-built ski resorts in the area.
     
    #31 CarveMan, Mar 31, 2013
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  32. JoeKing

    JoeKing Old n' Thrusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Go on! Hit the gravel.



    [​IMG]
     
    #32 JoeKing, Mar 31, 2013
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  33. timonearth

    timonearth Hard Yards

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    I have a soft spot for Falls. Think it's most likely a combination of the village and the Bogong High Plains being such inspiring country. Don't feel the same connection with Hotham or Buller.

    I'll go to Falls for a 5 day visit again this year even with a season pass for Perisher, my year wouldn't be complete without it.

    [​IMG]
     
    #33 timonearth, Apr 1, 2013
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  34. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Is Mt Bogong Village near Mt Bogong summit?

    I wonder what the road to Bogong is like. I was tempted to try turning off to Bogong, but my friends refused to let me T_T
     
  35. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Bogong (not mt bogong) Village is just there at the turnoff, nowhere near the summit. ie it is between the turnoff and the lake below. There are no roads to the summit, but a couple of 4WD tracks get you closer: granite spur track & mulhauser spur track.
     
  36. Apresski

    Apresski Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Quote Dos

    Also I'm by no mean a competent intermediate rider, more of upper beginner, but I can question the run even higher than my ability, can't I?
    end quote

    Going to be interesting watching Dos ski/board the Summit in 1 or 2 minutes!
     
  37. pansnow

    pansnow First Runs

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    What DOS says about the road is correct I have driven the Falls Creek road in winter and also the Perisher road.
    It does depend on the conditions.

    In a full on blizzard the Falls creek road has one plus over the Perisher Road. Visibility the falls creek road has trees on the side of the road so when it is really bad you can see the side of the road.
    I have driven the road from Perisher to Smiggins when the wind and snow created complete whiteout and ice condition's. The police would only let one car at a time go from perisher to smiggin's as cars were being blown off the road.
    If they didn't make it to the other end they would go looking.
    That day it took 2 1/2 hours to get out of the carpark and it was a week day.
     
  38. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    I've corrected my post and changed it to Sun Valley runs, not other runs -- certainly not the runs on The Maze area. What I questioned about the runs beside Summit chair was about they being black

    How long will it take you to ride the runs on Sun Valley side?
     
    #38 Dos, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  39. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    I'm not scared of height so for me narrow roads and cliffs and bends don't scare me if the visibility isn't too bad and surface not too icy. Sure I'll have to be very careful driving in winter. However, if the visibility is really bad, I'll be very concerned and will be crawling like a turtle.

    Ps. Narrow parking slot, especially side parking, worries me most as I'm so bad at curve parking and that I'm afraid I'd hit the cars in the front and back. Angle parking is my best friend [​IMG]
     
    #39 Dos, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  40. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Oh really. That's why I couldn't find a road on Google map.

    I guess 4WD tracks will be above my driving ability so visiting the village at the turnoff will be my best bet [​IMG]
     
    #40 Dos, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  41. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    You can drive on sealed road to mountain creek camping area (turn off at ryders lane in Tawonga) and then walk up Bogong. There are 2 main routes from there: Staircase spur or Eskdale spur. Most people do a loop, with lots of arguments about which direction is harder. Average time is said to be 8 hours for the round trip. the record is 1 hour 50 minutes (andy is a local legend). It's a long steep climb.
     
  42. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww that sounds so cool. I like hiking as much as I do with snow, may be a bit less but yes I love it. I'll put that on my to-do list.

    Early March I went to Thredbo and do the walks. I did the Main Range walk - reverse of suggested direction. Advertised average time for the walk is 10-12 hours, but as I wanted to come back in time for the last lift down to Thredbo I did it in 7.5 hours. I could have made it like 1 hour quicker had I been on the suggested direction because it's more of down hill walk. Still I couldn't arrive in time for the lift so I had to walk down from Eagle Nest to the Village which added 4-5km and 1 more hour to it.

    It was also my record walk in one day at 37km. My previous record for walking on city terrain was 25km and 21km for almost-non-stop jogging.

    By the way, I should ask if it's safe enough if I or we go on the walk track at Mt Bogong without a person familiar with the area?
     
  43. Benn0

    Benn0 Old n' Crusty

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    Well I've got to say that you really should try Falls when there is snow on the ground. I'm also upper beginner/low intermediate and I really enjoy falls. You can start at Drovers chair and work your way up Sun Valley as you improve. And there's lots of good little detours between Scotty's and Towers, you can have lots of fun around there.

    And the atmosphere of the village when there is snow on the roads and skiing back to your door is great. Just not the same in summer.
     
  44. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Every one has a different idea of safety. This is one opinion. Others will have different ideas.

    Bogong is a seriously exposed peak and people have died or got into big trouble up there. Best to go with someone rather than alone. For most of the year it is fine to do without any special equipment (crampons etc). Above the treeline navigation is difficult in foggy conditions, but a topo map together with a compass or GPS will suffice. You need to take clothing that will protect against a sudden weather change.

    There are 3 huts on Mt Bogong but you should never rely on them for accommodation (Bivouac on the Staircase spur, Michel on the Eskdale and Cleve Cole a few km across the top. If you intend staying overnight, take a tent in case the huts are full or you can't find them.

    there is more info about Mt Bogong in wikiski, particularly http://wikiski.com/wiki/index.php/Mt_Bogong

    On the Victorian March long weekend, most years the local Lions club run the Conquestathon which lets people climb Bogong with a even higher safety level because there are checkpoints and support provided.
     
    #44 currawong, Apr 2, 2013
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  45. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Thanks currawong (correct spelling) [​IMG] I'll keep that in mind when planning my trip.
     
    #45 Dos, Apr 2, 2013
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  46. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    Yes, I will and I'm sure I'll love it. My relatives who live in Shepparton go to Falls Creek most years even though they're closer to Buller than Falls.
     
    #46 Dos, Apr 2, 2013
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  47. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Another access point for Bogong summit is to drive to Camp Ck gap (off Trappers Gap Rd) and walk from there. Not far but steepish.

    ...

    Re resort hell, try Buller on a weekend, esp. in the school hols.
     
  48. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    I originally planned to visit Buller during the 8-14 July week, but realised it would be school holiday period so I postponed it a bit to August.
     
    #48 Dos, Apr 6, 2013
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  49. tbnext

    tbnext One of Us

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    For what it's worth I think your summer opinion translates to winter. Falls is the second best snow resort in Australia. Which means little. Hotham is a truly hopeless resort but a pretty good place to ski.

    We had a summer holiday in thredbo a few years back, +1 was well into a serious marathon training plan and thought he might run from the village to meritts, never even got close, too far and way too steep.

    I don't hate falls, pretty, nice for families, rip off over snow. But I cannot fathom how a high level intermediate to advanced skier doesn't go nuts after half a day.
     
  50. Dos

    Dos One of Us

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    I had a really great time doing the walks around Thredbo. I even set my own alpine-walking record of 37km (including walking down 560-metre Merritt Nature track at the end of the day) in 8.5 hours almost non-stop except for photos.

    I liked them all except one. Of all tracks at Thredbo, I HATED that bottom bit of Merritt Traverse, from bottom of Cruiser Express to village, the most. I only did one up and one down, just so I can say I've done it. And that was it. No more. It's not that it's too far or too steep, but it's a road. It's wasn't made for walking or jogging. Your feet are in bad angles all the times which is very bad for your feet, legs and knees.
     
    #50 Dos, Apr 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013