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Opinion The new Niseko - I hope not

Discussion in 'Japan' started by M_G, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. M_G

    M_G M_G_ = Make skiing great again Ski Pass: Gold

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    Following on from my beef in the Nozawa thread and not wanting to derail that thread I'm starting a new one here.

    This was my comment
    M_G said: To be honest some of the behaviour from a few Australians last night was bloody disgraceful. It was embarrassing.

    These were my beefs:
    Quite a few people loudly and continually saying f###, c###, etc. etc. I'll have to put a music track over my video to cover it! Something like live version of The Angels "Will I ever see your face again"
    One group pushing really hard to get through to the front. Some of the locals were just staring at these rude gaijin and saying nothing.I told them to take it easy and got a mouthful of abuse. I let it go because the next thing the fight will start.
    The last one - and this really angered me, they have calligraphy written and hung up with all the names of the babies born in the last year. Two Aussie girls decided to go over and souvenir some. These are special for the family for **** sake. Of course they would say didn't realise, but just don't do it. The Japanese people walking next to me were absolutely gobsmacked.

    Anyway I will say that the vast majority of the crowd were lubed up, happy and having fun. As usual it's just a few dickheads that stand out and reflect badly upon the rest of us.
     
  2. M_G

    M_G M_G_ = Make skiing great again Ski Pass: Gold

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    The of course there's the English/rudeness issue as others mentioned.
     
  3. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    When I was in Japan in 2012 I encountered more bogans in Hakuba than Niseko.
     
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  4. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Mg...I called it awhile ago...I was looked upon with mirth
     
  5. smitty484

    smitty484 Old n' Crusty

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    I found steering clear of Happo/echoland helps a lot. I noticed far less Aussies in food places/resorts that required driving too, but the couple of times I rolled into Happo/echoland it was like coming back to Brisbane. I was actually stunned how many Aussies I saw around there, quite off putting.
     
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  6. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    I have a theory on this. ..the bogan element is not first time visitors to Japan. Its staff...seasonal....been there before type peeps. They are cycling through the resorts...niseko. .. hakuba. . .nozawa. .arrogant and self assured.
     
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  7. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    I witnessed no bad behaviour in 2011. The only thing that stood out was duty free drinking in the lounge at the lodge by one group of 30 somethings.

    I dunno what it is but Australians drinking means "getting loud" culture may play a part.
     
  8. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Flappers
     
  9. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Could be some truth in that. The "second season local" can be a strong force in personal importance that has a real mob think structure to it.
     
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  10. Gumbo

    Gumbo One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    No excuse for these people, at the end of the day they are just toss bags.

    BUT......

    I think we tend to hear the Aussie voices and tend to watch them far more than we would any other person. I still think that no matter what part of the world you travel you will find some mongrel who thinks it is a god given right to ruin every other persons experience. Its not just Aussies who act as fools. Our family trip to Niseko (2 yrs ago)was amazing and even though when we were there there was a issue at Wild Bills (Irish guys having a massive blue). We mostly experienced mostly friendly people enjoying there holiday.

    If you looked at the tourism industry in Australia, you will find that the same thing exists when tourists travel to quiet unknown destinations. Does not matter the race unfortunately with mass tourism comes the low percentage of wankers who make all tourists un-liked by many locals. End of the day though the tourist dollar means so much to so many towns/countries that they have to be tolerated by the locals. Any local though who paints every tourist with the same brush is just as big an idiot at the toss bag tourist and will cost themselves by loosing good tourists/ customers via poor service.

    I used Niseko as a first experience of Japan for My wife, kids and myself and will definitely be returning to experience more of what the country has to offer.
     
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  11. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yup.

    Bus to Cortina was bogan central for me.
     
  12. BoofHead

    BoofHead One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I believe it was a payday. Heard a few seasonal staff talking about getting sh1t faced.
    I don't get to see it is as I don't go out but I did notice the crook behaviour in Hakuba on the shuttle buses. loud shouting and swearing on buses during the day is very ordinary.
     
  13. skichanger

    skichanger A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    The prolific swearing in public is never acceptable. When those people grow up they may realise how stupid it makes them look.
     
  14. Heinz

    Heinz Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    WTF Really? What total deadshits! You may not understand the meaning of those but to souvenir them is just appalling. Can fully understand the locals being gobsmacked. The would have been too polite to abuse them or more for doing so.

    I've been lucky in my travels so far in that I've always been a few years ahead of the ******** crowd. The big concern is that the number of places free of them appears to be diminishing. I've always had the pleasure of dealing with Japanese happy to see foreigners and always welcoming and helpful. There was mutual respect. One of the many things I liked about Japan. It wasn't just 'Show me the Pow'. It would be very sad to see them lose trust in visitors and just see them as trouble or at best merely an income.
     
    #14 Heinz, Jan 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  15. Bluebird

    Bluebird One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's horrendous! The poor locals, no wonder they were gobsmacked. I hope the new parents don't find out that their child's names were removed from the proceedings.
     
  16. Heinz

    Heinz Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    and people like that who don't GAS think they are fine and really don't care that they ruin it for everyone else because the locals no longer trust the thieving bloody foreigners. ****wits.
     
  17. tr+h

    tr+h One of Us

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    we have experienced very few problems. A few loud staffie's on their day off in one Gondola today. One of them was Irish and was just showing off to the two Australian Princess/Season workers. And then the girls bantered back.

    As a family, who has stayed in a group and gone to quality-ish eateries and a few little noodle-bar type places, we have encountered few problems. If you hang around the Seico-mart too long, then you see there is a yobbo element in the village, but they weren't offensive there.

    There was a bit of queue cutting from young ozy guys today and you get that at every resort and it just isn't ozy's. Just frustrating when you enter a lift queue and you are clearly a family and are trying to load into a quad and trying to stay as 3 kids in front and 2 parents behind and you don't mind others joining the chair...but these types of guys have a REALLY BAD reputation of "ONLY WANTING TO LIFT WITH MY FRIENDS!!!". Then you end up 4 chairs behind your kids and you end up losing them!!!
     
  18. BobGnarly

    BobGnarly One of Us

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    Im glad we didnt go. We saw the news and there were aussies and yanks being loud and rowdy looked like too many people in too small a space to me.
     
  19. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Hire a car. Hit a skijo with ten people. ..
     
  20. blutek

    blutek One of Us

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    Season before last at Rusutsu, the daytrippers from Hirafu were jumping off the chair at mid way. Set off a big yo-yo effect along the cable for everybody else.
     
  21. BobGnarly

    BobGnarly One of Us

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    I went one better and bought a car.
     
  22. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Tbh bro...I'm surprised you didn't build one lol
     
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  23. cin

    cin Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    LOL
     
  24. Pat42

    Pat42 One of Us

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    I was chatting to a local who said a lot of the issues from the fire festival are hakuba day trippers that get the bus back the next day and stay on the piss until the next morning bus at 6am.

    Said there were rocks thrown at windows etc
     
  25. JoeKing

    JoeKing Old n' Thrusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    :(


    Geez. Glad I pulled stumps before any of this.
     
  26. Bluebird

    Bluebird One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Huh... Guess that's why there were only five people on the 7:25 bus to Cortina this morning, all the usual clientele were otherwise occupied! :p

    In all seriousness, throwing rocks at windows, that's pretty atrocious behaviour.
     
  27. tr+h

    tr+h One of Us

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    When I saw this title, I was thinking someone was coming up with real ideas to fix this place. Having been here for a week, I can not believe that the hirafu area has not been made more ski-in at least. I could envisage a tunnel or a ski-bridge over the main road down the right side of the village, running down from the gondola area and dropping punters into the lower hirafu area at least. Then you could walk home a short distance.

    The bus system works well, but ski-in would have to be desirable still. Clearly can't ski-out given the terrain, unless you linked the ski-access down from the existing gondola to another "village gondola" that linked the lower area to the area between welcome centre and hirafu goldola ie an enormous cafe/lift/gondola meeting point!!!!!!! Much like the set-up a Mammoth Mountain.
     
  28. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Japan. Ten years ago those ski out options people stay in now were izakaya and pension. Japan is backward. Niseko is patchwork
     
  29. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I can back this up with what I heard this morning.
     
  30. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    And to add to my post above, from what i've heard today there's no way i'd consider going to Noz fire festival, which is quite disappointing for me. Some people have no respect and belong in Bali or the Winter Bali.
     
  31. gareth_oau

    gareth_oau Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've been to Hakuba twice and I'm pleased to say that in both cases the Aussies have been well behaved and nothing to be ashamed of.

    I did miss the Australia Day festivities by a few days, and I'm sure they were a bit more shameful then
     
  32. mick chopps

    mick chopps Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    All that behaviour is extremely dissapointing but not in any way unique to Australians abroad. Bogans and douche bags will be just that where ever they are.
    It's sad @M_G felt the need to start a thread about it as I'm sure the majority are and we're respectful and honored their country and themselves.
     
  33. mick chopps

    mick chopps Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    ^^^ to clarify, it is only sad that these poorly behaved individuals and there actions were the thing that stuck most in @M_G 's mind and not what i'm sure was still a great night for him and those he was with.
     
  34. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    This morning whilst walking the dog ….. I pondered.

    Do Australians (and other nationalities) create enclaves for holidays where they can behave badly and let out the pent up supressed energy from their country of origin ?

    Bali, Niseko, Whistler, places where the “overseas experience” is mostly reduced to a theme park peripheral in regards to the actual local content.

    Niseko scenario is to hire from an Australian hire shop, accommodation from an Australian operator, Food, grab a pizza, English speaking instruction from Aussie run companies, guiding, tourist info, hosting etc. All available from an Australian operation. Australians generally have a fairly lack attitude to customer service, demanding the best while delivering the worst themselves. Have "we escaped” to a place where there are no RSA rules, police presence and if a local is offended we can just dismiss them as “inferior” simply because you cannot understand them? Escaped only to not quite know how to behave due to the clash between our planned escapism and local society behaviour and due to critical mass and being out of our comfort zones revert to behaviour that stands out amongst the locals but is critical mass negated by our fellow holiday escapees ?

    There is nothing really unique about Australia these days. It’s a pretty homogenised and controlled place with lots of rules and people working their asses off to get ahead.

    Is “bad behaviour” overseas a manifestation of our frustrated, over worked, rule beaten, cloying bureaucracy tainted but overly privileged society.

    That said, I do tend to think that perhaps some of the “bogan” critic is a manifestation of overly critical observations based on our own self-styled positions within the overseas resort “society”. (no offence intended, just an observation formed over the years)

    Bought some phatter skis today, gonna run them quietly through Rusutsu in a few weeks.

    happy skiing
    happy life
     
    #34 dawooduck, Jan 17, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
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  35. mick chopps

    mick chopps Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Interesting theory Doc, perhaps walking the dog is when you do your best postulating!
    That said, I don't believe that the behaviour of this minority overseas is in any way different to that which they express or pursue at home. I tend to think when people are on holiday they relax and revert to type... That is to say if you are an obnoxious twat by nature, you'll likely be that way on holiday or any night out at home.
    In every holiday destination around the world you will find elements of a societal group that go there and act the fool. The Poms do it in Spain, the Yanks do it in Mexico/Carribean, Aussies in Bali and Thailand, Russians in Vietnam and Croatia and list goes on. And many a Chinese tour group has been guilty of ruining this locals' holiday experience here in Aus as they clamor for that one perfect photo or souvenir.
     
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  36. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    I tend to agree mick. Ones "normal behaviour" let loose and more likely manifested to a greater degree when one feels "supported" by the critical mass of fellow holiday makers even if the fellow holiday makers are in the majority displaying decent behaviour.

    Mob behaviour given “courage” by the comforting familiarity of those around. Bad behaviour doesn’t tend to go far when one is a fish out of water in a distant land and outnumbered by locals all talking an unknown language.

    I have done a lot of travel and personally I haven’t seen a lot of bad behaviour … which is more likely a manifestation of my travel choices. For example I chose Clarke Point reserve to watch the Sydney fireworks and not The Rocks for similar reasons as I would not choose a ski holiday in an Australian “enclave” or Bali for that matter. Been to Bali, the first time in 1979.

    I went on a surf trip to the Mentawais and there where Australians there complaining about some guys from the Canary Islands paddling inside. I just said “Olla” ( I cannot speak Spanish) and had a chat and we shared the waves. The whining Aussies expected everyone to take their turn …. when what they really where whining about was they were not at their home break doing the exact same thing to the weekend crowd.

    IMHO, Australians tend to try an impose “their perceived rights” on everyone. Ever noticed how Australians will “walk as slow as I want” across a road …. For the love of everything, I dunno why that is but it seems to be ingrained into our persona (in various levels)
     
  37. JoeKing

    JoeKing Old n' Thrusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not wanting to inflame the situation, is it wrong to consider a bit of fairness in regards to the apparent Aussie behaviour?

    I've seen Honolulu in the 90's and was struck by the same thing with the Japanese tourists. Cains also. The classic stereotype Japanese tourists.

    But part of -my- culture is not to be too annoyed by it and simply enjoy the spectacle of each stereotype. But destructive behavior is a line the need not be crossed. I agree.

    I think if it is the young people you see doing this, most of these people are connected via social media. The antidote is to film them and shame them. There are more people with cameras than there are bad eggs, so lets see who these clowns are. And make sure you tell me to wave for the camera!
     
  38. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    part of the problem (re nozawa) is the shape and size of the town. Much like Niseko..even moreso.
    Its so small and concentrated its easy for the tribal mob to congregate .
    Whereas hakuba is so spread out. With the exception of echoland the mob seems to be spread out more thinly.
     
  39. TOFF

    TOFF Im kind of a big deal Ski Pass: Gold

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    I blame @Donza @Vermillion and @smitty484 for creating this bogan culture in Japan as they refuse to travel elsewhere and have simply become to common and familiar with the place and have exported there bogan ways from home to there.
     
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  40. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    what time we catching up in hakuba again? you me and skiflat...
     
  41. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yep you should see the Poms/Swedes/Russians carry on in French ski resorts.
     
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  42. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    TBH its what every group is in the majority and comfortable in their actions.

    (except Kiwis)..we are never in a majority LOL
     
  43. mick chopps

    mick chopps Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Except Bondi or Logan...
     
  44. TOFF

    TOFF Im kind of a big deal Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just as soon as I can pack the slab of VB stubbies into my carry on.
     
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  45. mick chopps

    mick chopps Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Eff yes!
     
  46. Donza

    Donza Pool Room

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    Bondi? no way man...saffas ...and people that speak like saffas...The bondi jew
     
  47. TOFF

    TOFF Im kind of a big deal Ski Pass: Gold

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    The Germans in StAnton were an interesting group.
    Worse than any Aussie carrying's on Ive ever witnessed.
     
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  48. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I haven't seen a lot of really bad behaviour at the resorts I go to. If a lot of it is on shuttle buses, that might explain it.
    I did see one episode at Hakuba in Echoland, where soem Aussies got fireworks that shoot, and proceeded to fire them at buildings, cars, etc.

    However, living in Yokohama (part of the greater Tokyo area) for 7 years, I've become very attuned to the difference between behaviour of English speakers (and to some extent other foreigners) and Japanese people.
    The first one is the volume of the speech. This is particularly evident on trains, where the Japanese speak very quietly. By contrast, some Americans often speak so loudly, that you can hear what they are saying from the other end of the carriage. Aussies are not far behind. It's not that they do this deliberately, but they are totally out of tune with Japanese culture in general. For any of you who have been with me here in Tokyo, you may have noticed that I also speak quietly on trains, although generally I don't speak quietly back in Australia. I regard myself as a representative of non Japanese, and do what I can to abide by cultural norms. I find it embarrassing when others don't.
    Even people who have lived here a while sometimes talk loudly, because they often live in a "bubble" along with lots of other foreigners.
    So when I'm at a ski resort, I notice every English speaker because I don't normally hear that many, even in Tokyo. Aussies are generally a couple of notches louder.

    So this bring me to the point..... I think the behaviour is brought about by total lack of understanding of Japanese culture, and an inability to err on the side of caution when possibly overstepping the boundaries.
    It was mentioned earlier that perhaps it's people returning or Aussie staffers..... this may be plausible.... If those people are both familiar & confident, but STILL do not understand Japanese culture, then it may explain this behaviour.
     
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  49. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    One does not have to understand or even acknowledge local norms if one creates their own.
     
  50. mick chopps

    mick chopps Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Location:
    The barber's chair
    That's the exactly right. They're not really interested in indulging in the local culture, it's just another place to party and have fun. As a result they're completely ignorant to local customs and etiquette.
    Many are also often lacking in manners and decency from the outset.
     
    Bluebird likes this.