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Opinion The risk of owning a van in a holiday park near the snow

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by POW_hungry, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. POW_hungry

    POW_hungry Old n' Crusty Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's a viable option for many Aus ski enthusiasts, namely at Jindabyne.

    But a NSW South Coast council just gave marching orders to 120 van owners HERE.
    Where does your local ski resort holiday park fit into council development plans?
     
  2. POW_hungry

    POW_hungry Old n' Crusty Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    What's the leasehold on places like Jindy Holiday Park?
    What holiday parks are located near ski resorts that are run by the local council?
     
  3. Billy_Buttons

    Billy_Buttons Que Sera, Sera Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've been led to believe that the SMA own the land from the lake to the road.
     
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  4. JeremyG

    JeremyG Hard Yards

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    It is a real issue. There was a van for sale earlier this year and the owner finally withdrew as everyone got scared after talking to the owner of the park who could not provide any security about long term availability of sites.
    There may actually be a viable plan for someone to develop some land with long term sites.
     
  5. teckel

    teckel Not a Loser Ski Pass: Gold

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  6. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    It happened at snowline. I think their % was too high (permanent vs others)
    Werri was 80% I just read.
    That seems high.
    Our park ratio is much lower.
    Fifty onsites vs nearly 300 temporary options.
     
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  7. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    This is true. Council leases the Jindy foreshore from Snowy Hydro.
     
  8. Poppies

    Poppies Hard Yards

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    Permanents can be ok it depends on the location as to what sorts gravitate to there. That said I've seen the odd CP where it felt treacherous even given my life experience.
     
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  9. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    The whole notion of renting the ground beneath you is a risk. Lower upfront cost is balanced by lack of real tenure.
     
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  10. Billy_Buttons

    Billy_Buttons Que Sera, Sera Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sit back and watch what has happened before in Jindy. The speculators will be selling up constantly over the next few years. Jindy had a major downturn after the 03/04 boom and then it just cruised along with a flood of available properties until the 16/17 boom. This is now over...in-line with Sydney. You will be in the driver's seat to negotiate a great price from 2019 imo. In other news....Westpac announced today that they will no longer allow SMSF's to invest in real estate! It's on like donkey-kong and everybody will be wanting out of dodge asap.

    https://www.afr.com/real-estate/wes...y-pulling-out-of-smsf-lending-20180716-h12q72

    Westpac set to rock property market by pulling out of SMSF lending
    Westpac and its subsidiaries will withdraw from lending to small super funds at the end of this month. Supplied
    Westpac is set to rock the increasingly nervous property market by withdrawing new loan offers to self-managed superannuation funds looking to invest in property.

    The bank, the nation's second-largest mortgage lender, and its subsidiaries Bank of Melbourne, St George Bank and BankSA, will withdraw from lending to small super funds at the end of July, to "simplify and streamline" its products.

    The move has shocked mortgage brokers and financial advisers, who act as intermediaries between borrowers and the banks, but complements a change in lending strategy the banks have rolled out in recent weeks.

    It will also make already jittery property investors even more nervous about the outlook amid falling prices, rising costs and oversupply, particularly for apartments in the inner suburbs of Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.

    [​IMG]
    "We continually review our products and services to ensure they meet the requirements of our customers," a Westpac spokesman said. Brendon Thorne
    Westpac will continue to service customers with existing loans through switching loans and extending loan maturity. What the banks can do will depend on credit policy.


    Highly risky
    Regulators fear systemic problems being caused by SMSF investors encouraged to leverage their superannuation and invest in a single residential property because of the lack of diversification and increasing dangers of loss in a falling property market where it is difficult to find tenants.

    One key finding of the David Murray-led financial system inquiry in 2014 was that leverage should be banned in superannuation funds to mitigate the risk of financial instability. The government rejected his advice and Mr Murray said that was a mistake.

    Mr Murray, who was recently appointed chairman of AMP, the nation's largest financial conglomerate, is expected to launch an internal review of its SMSF lending practices.

    [​IMG]
    A recent ASIC reviewof 250 randomly selected client files and found 90 per cent failed to comply with the "best interests" test and other legal obligations. Jim Rice
    Professor Deborah Ralston, chairperson of the SMSF Association, said "there is a place" for property in SMSFs in a diversified, multi-asset investment strategy.

    The Australian Securities and Investments Commission recently raised concerned about dodgy advice being given to unsophisticated SMSF investors.

    Not a systemic risk
    SMSF Association policy head Jordan George said his understanding was that while NAB and ANZ did not lend to SMSFs, Commonwealth Bank and Macquarie did, but had very stringent lending criteria.

    Mr George said rather than being related to any systemic risk, the trend for major banks to exit the space was driven by capital adequacy requirements.

    "We think increased capital adequacy requirements by APRA are driving the trend by the majors to scale back.

    "The margins banks can make are being diminished because of the capital they have to be able to hold to offset these loans."

    The greater complexity associated with SMSF loans and relatively small size of the market were also disincentives, Mr George said.

    "As banks are looking to streamline and reduce costs, these are the types of products that get reduced," he said.

    BDO business services partner Chris Balalovski said consumer lending was a sensitive area and especially so when it involved people's retirement savings.

    "It was inevitable that banks were either going to proactively – or be pushed – into rolling back their lending offerings to self-managed super funds," he said.

    "Borrowing can hypercharge gains but it can also magnify losses. However, we don't see any of these decisions by the financiers have been influenced by that.

    "It does seem to be in response to potential negative community or even regulator backlash.

    "There is nothing in the publicly available statistics to suggest that this is a problem in the sector.

    "Borrowing has a place in any sound investment strategy, whether it's for a self-managed super fund or a private company, so long as it is properly formulated and takes into consideration the risk of the asset you're investing in, liquidity and diversification."

    A recent ASIC review of 250 randomly selected client files and found 90 per cent failed to comply with the "best interests" test and other legal obligations.

    "The strategy of gearing through an SMSF to invest in property, which is being actively promoted by 'property one-stop shops', is high risk," the ASIC report said.

    There are fears that legal restrictions – or caps – on how much a SMSF investor can contribute to their plans could cause a credit crunch for many borrowers and force fire sales of their properties, which becomes more likely as property capital values and yields slump.

    This scenario could arise if the expense of renovating a property, or supplementing rental income, exceeded annual caps.

    Tougher scrutiny on other borrowers
    Westpac's move could also herald a change in strategy away from risky investors to low-risk premium investor and owner-occupier fixed-rate borrowers by offering discounts of up to 50 basis points and free international trips.

    It recently introduced tougher scrutiny of borrowers' capacity to service a loan across the proposed term by deeper analysis of their income and expenditure.

    Their recent discussions with mortgage brokers indicate continued confidence in the property sector despite conceding greater borrower nervousness.

    For example, it is offering borrowers limited-term discounts of between 30 basis points and 50 basis points on principal and interest and interest-only loans of at least $150,000.

    For example, five-year principal and interest borrowers are being offered a 40 basis point discount of the headline rate of 4.09 per cent. There is a $395 annual fee.

    One-year interest-only repayments are being offered with a headline rate of 4.39 per cent with a limited-term 50 basis point discount.

    Borrowers are also eligible for enhanced Velocity frequent flyer points with a $250,000 loan earning a couple 200,000 points, enough for a return flight to Hong Kong, and a $1 million loan qualifying a couple to fly economy return to London from any Australian capital.

    Other major lenders are also tightening their SMSF lending policies in addition to increasing rates on loans and other property-related credit.
     
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  11. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Where speculation and investment collide.
     
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  12. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Mind you.. .i don't think people borrow money to buy caravans.

    The demand down there is crazy. 16 foot van and annex. Sold for 30k in 30 mins on FB with 85 inquiries in that 30mins.
     
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  13. POW_hungry

    POW_hungry Old n' Crusty Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    That is mental. Says to me there is a HUGE gap in the market for temp homes.
     
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  14. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    And simply affordable-ish options for leisure time - on call, no booking, summer and winter holidays for the price of a few years’ apartment letting (sort of).
     
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  15. Belly

    Belly A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    You might be specifically interested in Jindy and using Werri as a precedence, but as another precedence I know the Tomakin caravan park recently bought out it's permanent sites for a redevelopment as a mate had one. Don't know much more than that, but he seemed reasonably happy with the process / outcome.
     
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  16. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I thought it interesting a couple of years ago, when a van was only a third the price of a unit. The unit is now double what it was, the van much the same.
     
  17. Arsas

    Arsas One of Us

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    That is crazy, all you own is a 30-40 year old van, annexe, and some cheap furniture. Actual value of the items would be maybe $10k. I have looked into buying a van but on the south coast, and after talking to a few CP managers I was put off. I am not sure people understand the fact that, if the owner of CP wants the land back you have no say and have nothing, to make it worse you have to remove everything from the site which would cost you a few thousand.
     
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  18. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    When a season rental would cost in excess of $10k it isn't all that mental.

    There are limitations on the amount of time you can stay (I think 180 at discovery park) and the annual fee was around $5k. If someone needs wants something regular for holidays and lots of weekends there it would work out pretty good after a few years
     
  19. Arsas

    Arsas One of Us

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    30k outlay then $5-7k per year just to use it, and depending on the park you have to pay extra for certain number of people.
    I looked into seasonsl renatls well before the season started and you could get a 2 bedroom dettached granny flat sleep 4-5 (2 adults 2-3 kids) for $450 p/w. 16 week lease =$7200 not much more than the yearly fees and no outlay or risk of loosing your $30k
     
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  20. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Huge gap in affordable accommodation.
     
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  21. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    No your'e not buying a 30 year old van .
    Your'e buying an option to put your own structure on that parcel of land.
     
  22. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    The other difference between Jindy and the coastal van parks is the huge variation in visitation in off season months.
    Jindy van park has established cash flow in months that have very low visitation. While the costs associated in having onsite vans is very low for the park .
    Thats a massive win IMO
     
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  23. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    that's fine if you don't want to go to jindy outside of season, which a lot of van users do. I probably spend almost as much time down there in summer as I do winter. Disco fees are a bit less that $5k when I saw a place up for sale this year. Only direct family otherwise additional costs p/p.

    That is pretty cheap rental too, most were in excess of $10k.
     
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  24. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Seasonal rentals were what PW?? $450?
    LOL Ok.
    Average for a 2 bedroom place is $800 per week (ie staff accomodation) Usually at East Jindy or so.
    Remember seasonal rentals (lets call them interschools parents) are competing vs staff seasonal accomodation.
     
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  25. Arsas

    Arsas One of Us

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    Not sure what you mean. You said a 16ft caravan sold for 30k. So someone just bought a caravan, annexe and some furniture for 30k. Thats it, thats all you own is whats on top of the site. The 30k doesn't t give you rights to anything else. You then have to pay the CP the annual fee to make that site your exclusice site for a year.
    If someone was crazy enough to pay 30k for a vacant site which you dont own, or paid 30k and wanted to replace everything on the site, well you would IMO be crazy. You would then need to buy everything a caravan
    , annexe, furniture etc. for another 20k $50k total and in the end you can be told you have to take it all away.
     
  26. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I don't think you get it.
    Someone paid 30K for what is basically a derelict van . That Van and annexe will be demolished and replaced with a much larger footprint Van and annexe. The footprint will usually be 7m x 6m .
    This is what is occuring . Old vans being bought up and turned over. The van park likes this as it's asethically much more pleasing on the eye.
    The DAs for the sites now include permanent footings for the annexes . This has changed in recent years.
     
  27. Arsas

    Arsas One of Us

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    Exactly IMO its crazy cause you dont own the land, you have the right to put a non permanent structure there and lease it year by year, with the possibility of being told to leave as per the OP.
     
  28. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Except the DA's being approved by the council are for permanent type construction. The Council own the park.
     
  29. W0nkey D0nkey

    W0nkey D0nkey One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Same shit is happening in Shoalhaven ski park. Riverfront sites going for 30-50 grand.
     
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  30. Belly

    Belly A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    People pay a lot of money for houses in the ACT and don't own the land also ;)
     
  31. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    and thredbo
     
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  32. rocketboy

    rocketboy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Kiama won’t break even on what’s it planning for 10-20 years. Just a make work program for senior council staff. A horrible council run for the benefit of cashed up boomers who have moved in the past 10’years.
     
  33. POW_hungry

    POW_hungry Old n' Crusty Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's an investment for the future....
    [​IMG]
     
  34. POW_hungry

    POW_hungry Old n' Crusty Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    This is really the crux of the issue - what clauses are there to stop people being rolled by the council. Serious question...
    What assurity do you have that the Council isn't going tell people to pack up thier development and piss off? Even with a permanent structure the DA doesn't give you any say if the council wants to change the zoning, right?

    It's almost an issue of the Kerrigans and Coolaroo...
     
  35. Zimbooo

    Zimbooo One of Us

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  36. Arsas

    Arsas One of Us

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    From what I have seen at South Coast CP's, you have no security at all. Some of the setups you see at South Coast CP's are still classed as non permanent but they have full concrete slab floors for the annexes, driveways, and car parks next to the caravan. A lot have paid to connect to the sewer so they can have internal shower and toilet. Then the CP owners say you have to move to another site or leave because they want to put in Cabins which will fetch 3000+ pw over summer. This is happening at a lot of the Holiday Haven CP's which are Shoalhaven Council owned.
    Lake Tabourie Holiday Haven is having another problem with caravans in the new flood areas set by council. From what I last heard these could not be sold to anybody else so the value is now zero except what you could get on the secondhand market for the used caravan (some easily 40yo), annexe and furniture. If you wanted to work/renovate or fix the caravans you had to first raise them 1m off the ground
    to be above flood level, otherwise they stay as they are.
     
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  37. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Its all about the vibe.

    There is no assurance (like Perisher at present), though the situation in Jindy with NRMA is different to the situation on the coast.

    As a footnote, i'm still amazed that Pats Patch exists
     
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  38. PiniPowPow

    PiniPowPow One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    As a ratepayer in Kiama totally agree! Currently earn annual average of $5,500/van, with development they are hoping to average $6,500/site. So over 120 or so sites it is an extra 120K per year for a $6 million investment.

    Most of sites will be just grass, some with little ensuite buildings.
     
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  39. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just saw this on facebook, 30 grand to buy and relocate it. Not leave in park as they are moving out long terms in favour of rentals.

     
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  40. skichanger

    skichanger A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Personally I don't get the caravan park thing when you can join a club.
     
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  41. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Cheaper
     
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  42. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    still need to book your wanted dates. Having an onsite you can go every weekend or whatever week days without bidding.
     
  43. crackson

    crackson Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Caravan parks aren't camping.

    #ghettolife

    'Cept Jindy, aye?
     
  44. Arsas

    Arsas One of Us

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    This just proves the risk of buying in a caravan park as the park owners can tell you to leave if they want.
    Don't like their chances of getting 30k for a second hand cabin, considering there is no real spots in the nearby area to put it, the relocation cost would be huge.
     
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  45. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah thats been going on for awhile in that park.
    Interesting cabin. More in tune with structures you see for permanent housing options in van parks.
    30 grand is pretty cheap really.
     
  46. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Would make a great little granny flat if you had the land.
     
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  47. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Looks like it. I can say that it would be something that would have me be really apprehensive if I was going to purchase one.
     
  48. surfer1

    surfer1 Addicted

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    You
    You get to meet people in the amenities block
     
  49. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    they have a spa and sauna section at discovery park ;)
     
  50. surfer1

    surfer1 Addicted

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    My 2 cents on this having been in Jindy HP for over a decade and previously Snowline and seen many changes in management is that you just accept the fact that each season is a bonus.

    I may be wrong but the management/lease sub lease etc at JHP vis a vis the Council is probably a lot different to a lot of coastal parks.

    As Donzah says no matter how much the try to make Jindy " all year round " it isn't never will be. So do they give up $5000 plus per van to built cabins put in sewerage etc. I don't know, ask me next winter...hopefuly!!
     
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