Years ago we looked at buying land and building in Thredbo. When we were told that unless we used the architect that approved everything we would not be able to get approval we were
That's logical, but remember that the power to make those decisions rests with people in Sydney who don't downhill ski.
When Sequoia was renovated back in the early 90s, they did a wonderful job of keeping the original flavour of the lodge, and so did High Noon, amongst others. It can be done. Obergurgl was recently very stylishly renovated without being destroyed, and further back so was Seidler. But many people with money like building glass houses, even in the snowfields. Has anyone any links to the current plan of Black Bear? It's changed so many times I've lost track.
Hopefully Thredbo management can effectively advocate up the line. After all, I assume Thredbo aims for a quality customer experience, rather than just cramming as many people as they can on the hill.
It's always been that way and is very obvious in the different architectural styles of the village - Crackenback Ridge is one style, Woodridge another, Woodridge 2 another. Not sure who the current KT planner is but they obviously like the Gold Coast glass look for the redevelopment of the village proper.
Comments were made elsewhere about how important the numbers from the River Inn and associated businesses are to KT. Personally I doubt this, but if it is true it sounds like quantity tops quality.
I think its a bit harder to charge $20K a week for an old dump unfortunately, as I agree with the character comments.
Uniqueness and isolation... many years in the back seat driving up the dirt road from Melbourne. Getting stuck in blizzards, having to stay at Tom Groggin as we couldn't get up the hill. It was isolated alright! SOOOOOO excited when we hit Dead Horse Gap. Great memories. I feel the tight knit community started unravelling in the early 2000s, before we left. There's definitely still elements of it there but not like it was before the turn of the century (jeez, I sound like a boomer and I'm a whole generation out of that )
Made me think of this: Little Boxes Malvina Reynolds Little boxes on the hillside Little boxes made of ticky-tacky Little boxes on the hillside Little boxes all the same There's a green one and a pink one And a blue one and a yellow one And they're all made out of ticky-tacky And they all look just the same And the people in the houses All went to the university Where they were put in boxes And they came out all the same And there's doctors and lawyers And business executives And they're all made out of ticky-tacky And they all look just the same And they all play on the golf course And drink their martinis dry And they all have pretty children And the children go to school And the children go to summer camp And then to the university Where they are… And the boys go into business And marry and raise a family In boxes made of ticky-tacky And they all look just the same There's a pink one and a green one And a blue one and a yellow one And they're all made out of ticky-tacky And they all look just the same Source: LyricFind Little Boxes lyrics © O/B
It's a business, a big business. The primary changes are related to the transition from a village of independent characters to a resort of professional employees. Much the same process has played out on the opposite ridge with the consolidation of Guthega, Blue Cow and Perisher into a single entity under a corporate banner. Individual character lost, professional opportunities opened up. Things change, opportunities lost and found.
Had you been here the evening before the mandatory evacuation in January you would have seen that the tight knit community is still here. Many people dropped into BB and the overwhelming feeling was, that whilst the buildings can be rebuilt, the scattering of the community was what was feared most. There are not many places where the ages of people in a bar ranges from 20 to 80 and everyone is treated by everyone else as an equal.
Yeah, but the actual community is always there in summer. There is a very different feel in winter these days overall. Particularly on the mountain itself. KT has a lot to do with it - taking over many of the village businesses. There was no fear of the community being scattered during the 2003 bushfire evacuation, as we sat in the Village and watched the flames on the hill to the south. Everyone was all in it together (apologies for the overused cliche but it's the truth) and each played their own part, whether it was mother's taking children to accom in Jindy, or others banding together for ember attack training etc. I'm sure that happened this year too but back then it all felt like one unit playing the roles that needed to be played.
Yep. It's interesting as no other small 'town' has gone through this transition (aside from other ski resorts). Every other town grows as a town and a community, not as a business answering to shareholders. That's why so many people feel it in Thredbo. What's in the heart never changes though.
Interesting point. My two home hills - Thredbo and Hirafu - Ive felt exactly this. But over the last couple of years with the growth in Niseko has come a greater diversity of ski travellers. All of a sudden that 20-80 are all the same is vanishing. Not wholesale but in pockets. I’d hate for that to ever happen at Thredbo.
All true, there can however be illusions mentored by isolation slowly dissolved by existing realities not immediately apparent. Friendly from the inside but not always so from the outside. The new gondola is awesome and it's still the best ski hill in Oz outside of Buller in a bumper season. This Covid season is almost "the good old days" sans alcohol.
I just feel a lot of the character and characters in the village isn’t what it was. And I think a big controllable part of that is the disappearance of independently run businesses. I don’t know what Thredbo is thinking there - in my view it degrades the village experience even if they do dodge the mistakes of the occasional bad business owner (looking at you Merrits post Sonia). The other thing is the pioneering generation seemed to have a big presence and often big personalities and that can’t be replicated.
I always remember whilst managing our lodge and I was in my early 30s and mentioned to one of the members I was going to a very close friend's 50th that weekend. And the member was visibly taken aback and said, "you have a friend who is FIFTY??". She was really shocked. She was from Sydney and it never occurred to me that people actually notice people/friends by their age and not by their individual traits. It was a very strange reaction to me. Because celebrating birthdays was the only thing in the village that indicated anyone was of any different age, no one in the village regards age at all. It's a great thing.
This is an interesting discussion, my plus one is a heritage consultant so we have this discussion regularly. FWIW @skichanger I don’t think KT can legally control which architect is used, I’m not saying this didn’t happen but in today’s environment this would likely be frowned upon. I am with @Townsend on the change to the fabric of the buildings, I don’t want Thredbo to turn into a Lego village, it will loose its appeal very quickly and that appeal is part of what I like about the place. that said I guess I’m not as anti the take over of shops, I’ve noticed since the changed over to corporate shops, more are open year round. This is totally anecdotal and may have to do with foot traffic as well in summer months. having said all that I do find it interesting many people call for VT to be changed yet I’m pretty sure this and the hotel are listed buildings.
This threads evolution is making me want to go skiing even if I am not part of Thredbo's 'community'. First day next Thursday followed by a series of late winter/Spring days booked and loaded, can't wait now even if the snow is a little on the dodgey side!
FWIW skichanger I don’t think KT can legally control which architect is used, I’m not saying this didn’t happen but in today’s environment this would likely be frowned upon. KT are the head lessee of the village, so not only is it ok for them to legally control the building within the village, until recently they've done an ok job of it. The village has a good feel to the previous spread of architecture but it monstrosities such as Bellevarde are allowed to go ahead willy nilly, the village is in HUGE trouble. I am withTownsend on the change to the fabric of the buildings, I don’t want Thredbo to turn into a Lego village, it will loose its appeal very quickly and that appeal is part of what I like about the place. No one wants the village to turn to lego, we're all in the same boat here. I simply don't have an emotional attachment to Black Bear, despite having a 30+ year history with it. As I said earlier, it's a cultural thing, there is no historical or architectural significance to the building and it's dangerous the way it is at the moment. Fortunately Stav and Sandy kept numbers within legal and safe limits. Believe it or not, it is actually possible to develop a really good establishment on the site, but whether that happens or not is actually what's got everyone worried (see point above). that said I guess I’m not as anti the take over of shops, I’ve noticed since the changed over to corporate shops, more are open year-round. This is totally anecdotal and may have to do with foot traffic as well in summer months. The anti-takeover of the shops thing was more about the community being barged out of businesses they had set up and run for many years. There's definitely more a made in China and/or overtly luxe shopping mall vibe with many of the corporate shops now. There was always a rule in place that every business had to be open for x amount of time over the summer months, even if the village was empty. More foot traffic in the village over summer now does make a huge difference. having said all that I do find it interesting many people call for VT to be changed yet I’m pretty sure this and the hotel are listed buildings. I think (hope) the foot bridge linking the two is listed too, it's quite an amazing piece of engineering. We have a magazine article about it from when it was built. Must dig it up and share it here someday.
It is on a website for Planning NSW. The powers to be are coming down in October to review the plans, locations etc. It will be almost the same night as High Noon! Back to the fire evacuation...there were many differences this year compared to 2003 in that a. the NPWS made it mandatory, b. the town brigade initially had no support, and that c. Spike asked us to leave. Later on they realised that they actually wanted people to say because of the ember attacks!
This was in the early 1990s. Pre landslide. It was not KT. I think it was someone with someone with some sort of a deal with NPWS that they certified that buildings met their requirements. The message from the real estate agent was if you are building use these guys otherwise it will be a nightmare getting it approved. It would be interesting to go back and look at who was the architect for Woodridge, Crackenback ridge and those golf course apartments. Were they all the same person/company? Personally I don't like all the buildings in an area looking the same. This sort of anti-competition policy was frowned on then. Still happens today.
KT may be the lease holder and may have the power to control the development process but they can’t tell you which architect to use. This would be very close to third line enforcement. I think my Lego comment is more related to the fact that their is a very similar style to many of the recently completed buildings. Stone render and curved roof..... there was some really quirky stuff done that I think adds to the village appeal, I’m thinking the stuff just down from the siedler building. Personally I would like to see some alternative builders for nothing other than variation. I too don’t have an attachment to black bear I’d just prefer to see something other than a big box. And yes I find developers and have funded development in Thredbo in Woodbridge stage 3 so I understand the difficulties. yep I hope the bridge and stairs stay as well! Nothing prettier than seeing the bridge covered in snow!
That makes more sense, and I guess I can see how that could be a positive or negative .i.e these guys have the process dialled, verse go to these guys as they are the only ones that will get an approval. I know the developer of the golf course apartments and I am pretty sure they were the only ones he did in Thredbo. He would of used a local Canberra firm.
If they were done as a single development and then completed properties sold off that is a different process.
I do notice a lot of influence of the Peter McIntyre / Dinner Plain style of architecture in some of the newer developments at Thredbo. Bascially in the mid 1980s Dinner Plain (10 km from Hotham) was developed as a freehold town above the winter snowline and in order to give the place some syle and avoid the generic concrete / brick cube buildings that had been built in other Australian ski towns, they put a covenant on all blocks of land that were sold. The covenant specified which building materials and colours could be used and gave guidelines as to architectural style (broadly, muted colours, stone, wood and corrugated iron, lots of gables, etc.) The architect Peter McIntyre was part of the company subdividing the land and the style of his buildings became a template for draftsmen and other architects designing houses and lodges at DP. All that means that there is a certain uniform style, while still allowing a fair bit of individuality in the hundreds of buildings at Dinner Plain. A woman I used to go out with described it as "a bit twee", but I really like the style. Anyway the DP look has been branded "Australian mountain style", although that is a bit silly IMHO. It was emulated at other places like new Summit Road at Buller and some areas of Crackenback and even Woodridge at Thredbo. Would it be better to have the current "any architectural style goes" approach at Thredbo or would people prefer the regulated approach of Dinner Plain?
I've been thinking about this a bit more. The New South Wales Government has designated the Snowy/Monaro a Special Activation Precinct (which is bureaucratic speak for an area for development focus in which planning approvals will be fast-tracked). The Snowy SAP is tourism focused so there will be broad planning for development of the region. Thinking about Thredbo, I note that there are some similarities with Banff in Canada where the town is in a national park and subject to restrictions on development and residency. In the case of Banff, there is another town called Canmore further down the valley that is just outside the park boundary. Canmore is developing as the overflow for housing and accommodation that cannot be developed in Banff and maybe given the SAP, a similar town to Canmore, on a smaller scale, could be developed just outside the national park. A single master plan for development of such a town would help avoid sprawl and over development. Lake Crackenback or Wollondibby are the obvious locations for an Australian Canmore.
It's called Jindabyne and has the advantage of being on a lake big enough for most summer water activities with weather warm enough to be conducive to swimming
Jindabyne is too far for overflow development, a maximum of 15-20 minutes drive from Thredbo would be ideal. Canmore is still in the mountains and has a similar feel to Banff.
Yeh ideally but there are a few problems there. One are planning constraints with the land along the alpine way due to bushfire, topography and biodiversity having only fairly small areas that are suitable for town/village style development limiting the size of any overflow town, the lake will play a greater role for summer as time goes by with summer itself doing a lot more to even out the seasonal tourist flow and I would suspect a fair bit of resistance from some local Jindabyne businesses/people worried about taking people/spend away from Jindabyne, Jindabyne already has the basis of service town with schools/medical etc rather than having to build it all again in a place where you can't do nearly as much due to planning constraints, Jindabyne has a trail linkage to the mountains via Hatchery and the TVT so is part of the larger mtn bike network and this is growing fast (potentially very fast). My expectation would be a bigger year round shift to tourist numbers in/around Jindabyne (but still with a very significant four season element to the mtns with Thredbo at epicentre of course), some smaller gains in accomadation/services up the Alpine Way leading perhaps to some village/tourism nodes ie expansion to Lake Crackenback and a higher level of non urban tourist development along the Alpine Way ie Brumby Bar/Penderlea/Crackenback Farm styled accomodation and attractions) and perhaps, just maybe, some public transport or more efficient means of getting up the hill. Building a whole new town ten minutes up the road from Jindabyne would just prove all too much I'd suggest. If Jindabyne was another >15 minutes away for sure but Jindabyne developed beyond a country town where it is now due to proximity. The end result would be a much more diverse offering for tourists with a fairly substantial increase in the number of options for visitors in Jindabyne itself and along the Alpine Way through Crackenback to Thredbo but with Jindabyne still being the anchor of it all.
It's called Jindabyne. 10km difference between Canmore to Banff and Jindy to Thredbo. Lake Crackenback is already a resort style development and Wollondibby is either vertical or swamp.
I blame myself. I first arrived in 2004. For what it's worth the Schuss Bar was rocking in 2004 - that handrail up the stairs full of skis, people dancing in ski boots 'til all hours. I missed the 2005 season. Schuss Bar was rocking again in 2006. Then that vibe just sort of went away from 2007 onwards ... unless the Groove Robbers were playing
I don't like the finish. They look like weather board. Doesn't matter what you do, weather board looks cheap. Stayed in one in about 1990. Probably part of why I don't like them.
I thought Thredbo did have similar requirements regarding colour, building material and style. Some newer developments see to have deviated from that though. I must say I always assumed DP had picked up on the architectural cues from Thredbo but I have no specific knowledge - it was an assumption
Well I doubt the developers who bought the farmland at Dinner Plain in 1984 and subdivided it into the current town came up with that style of architecture all on their own. McIntyre claimed that he was inspired by mountain cattlemens huts, but the early buildings at DP are far too elaborate to have taken that much inspiration from basic slab huts. So I guess they looked around at ski village architecture in Australia and elsewhere and chose what they thought was the best as a basis for their building regulations. But visiting a town of hundreds of buildings all in the same distinctive style, does make a real impression. There's nothing else like it in Australia.
From the Forbes Stynes webinet page. "Specifically, in Lake Crackenback, the title is strata and the zoning is SP3 Tourism. This may have impact on financing your purchase, because the property is zoned tourism."
Casbak, based in Harrietville, built pretty much all of Dinner Plain and did a LOT of development in Thredbo in the early-mid 90s over several summers, hence you noticing the style. I'm not sure who the architect was but wouldn't be surprised if it was one and the same.
Wonder what Golden Eagle have to say about that... Yeah, in 2003 it was still fresh in the memory of the landslide ('97) and a lot of lessons had been learned from that so they were keen for local knowledge to stay in the village. This year sounds like NPWS didn't actually give Thredbo a choice. Very short memories
The curved roofs are pretty hideous but I think you'll find the stone render on the bottom half of every single building in the village as that is a requirement of building there. Fortunately, they don't mine the local rivers anymore as they did back in the day when they built Bursill's/Denman! It's a great look but imagine how the rivers would have been pillaged due to the number of buildings now BTW, yeah, I see what you're saying now about KT and the architects. They can't force you to use one but they do make the hoops like a ninja circuit
I understand any units/apartments in their being strata but it surprises me that any free standing buildings are not Torrens title and part of a neighbourhood association. It might depend on when it was set up though as it may pre-date the community title act.
Surely they would move on to rubble from the various tunnels. Our house is granit render. The rocks came from one of the Guthega tunnels. We have been told that the original owner was senior at Guthega.
I think the buildings are owned by The Novatel chain of hotels, there are also a number of stray titles units as well. I imagine the strata looks after the common area similar to a gated community. Units can be let through the hotel chain or independently hence the warning on the real estate site as banks don’t like hotel managed property.
If by golf course apartments you mean the Riverside complex I believe they were all designed by Robin Dyke’s practice and I think they were all built at the same time. Not sure about Woodridge and Crackenback Ridge. I suspect various architects were involved. If the design standard is good I personally quite like a bit of design continuity like they have at Dinner Plain. If everyone does their own thing and the colours and shapes and materials are all different I think it can end up somewhat unattractive. The suburb where I grew up in Sydney was afflicted in this way - one house would be Tudor, the neighbour would be Spanish Ranch and across the road would be pseudo Colonial with fake shutters bolted to the wall. Perhaps I am still traumatised by the memory of this.
