Unfair chains requirement

Discussion in 'Mt Baw Baw' started by tropicalsnow, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

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    I recently ventured to Baw Baw near the end of season on a sunny 12 degree day with no chance of snow (or rain). I was in an AWD vehicle which I specifically purchased to minimise having to fit snow chains in all but necessary conditions. On this day, in spite of the clear roads, mild weather, zero chance of snow and AWD vehicle, they forced me to hire chains at the bottom of the mountain! I realise it is a legal requirement in Victoria, but in these circumstances it is hardly fair or reasonable. It was plainly a money grab.
     
  2. crackson

    crackson A Local
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    Yeh. Victoria sucks.

    We should build a wall.
     
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  3. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Yes keep the nannying for ourselves!

    That rule does suck. Although after buying a (new?) suv for what $30-50k - buying chains just once looks like good value compared with renting?
     
  4. Hermannator

    Hermannator One of Us
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    Rookie error.

    Need to throw any old pair of chains in the back - borrowed from friends for phree ideally...
     
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  5. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us

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    The policy regarding snow chains in resorts is that day visitors may not be required to carry them if the RMB specifies so in accordance with the regulation below -

    56 Prescribed Board may waive carrying of wheel
    chains on certain days

    (1) A prescribed Board may determine that
    regulation 55 does not apply to day visitors on a
    specified day in an alpine resort for which the
    Board is responsible.

    If you stay overnight during the declared season then you have to carry them, so firstly were you staying overnight? Secondly, was it the RMB who enforced the snow chain regulation or an off mountain chain hire place?

    This works only until you get to the resort area as legislation from the resort boundary is quite explicit about the chains being able to be fitted to the vehicle. The likelihood of being checked is remote at the end of the season in Baw Baw. Prior to the resort and on Vic Roads managed roads then you can carry whatever size and type of chain you like as the legislation has a significant loop hole in it. The offence for not carrying chains outside the resort is 'disobey a sign' and current value is $161. There is no reference in the road rules or any other traffic legislation referring to the type and size of chains. This may be adjusted shortly after the discussion I have had with many in the regulatory area this year. Parks Vic are also reviewing legislation covering snow chains after I pointed out a significant flaw in the legislation covering Mt. Buffalo.
     
  6. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty
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    If you ski in vic much, and drive your own vehicle there, then just cough up and buy chains. I've always just gone to Roof Carrier Systems (ie @snowtyres). I think last time it cost about $150 to trade in old ones for 2nd h ands that fitted new (2nd hand) car.

    The legislation is a PITA but for snowaddicts really not worth getting up-tight about.
     
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  7. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

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    To answer the first question, it was a day trip. I don't go very often, so don't have my own chains. In the past, I've hired them. I honestly didn't expect I would be forced to hire chains on a mild, sunny day. The temperature got to 12 degrees.

    To answer the question, I assume by RMB, you mean Resort Management Board or some such? It was Baw Baw resort staff at the gate (at the bottom of the mountain) who forced me to hire the unneeded chains.
     
  8. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty
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    not saying that your trip was in these conditions but sunny days can have dangerous patches early in the morning. snow melts during the day, water flows over the road and freezes on a clear night. in a shady corner it may take a while to melt again.
     
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  9. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

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    Another significant flaw is out of season snow. If this law were to be truly fair, it would be based on the weather forecast as well as road conditions.

    I'd be interested to know why this law was enacted in the first place and how it compares to other countries. Was it enacted because of increasing road accident data of vehicles without chains on snowy roads, or just the perception that there was a hazard that needed to be legislated for?
     
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  10. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

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    I get your point, but when arrived (which was around midday), the temperature was well above freezing and the road completely clear. The forced chain hire was totally unnecessary, just a money grab, exploiting the law for financial gain.
     
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  11. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty
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    Unfair and bureauceatic but i doubt that financial gain was the motivation.
     
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  12. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum
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    Drive the Perisher Road on any day that there has been a snowfall. You will understand why chains are required. A lot of 4WDs (which are not required to carry chains) having a little rest beside the road.

    Lots of places require some sort of traction adjustment in winter. In British Columbia, for example, you have to fit snow tyres for winter
     
  13. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old n' Crusty
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    Yes but you don't fit chains for these conditions
     
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  14. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old n' Crusty
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    My day at Buller in September i was surprised at the gate when it said chains not required for 2 or 4WD
     
  15. teckel

    teckel Old n' Crusty
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    I'm thinking the OP mainly skis in NSW?
    Victorian roads, particularly to Hotham and Baw Baw are worlds away from roads in NSW.
     
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  16. Astro66

    Astro66 Still looking for a park in Thredbo
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    Weather in the mountains can change quickly. And unless you want to fill out a questionnaire each time you enter an Alpine Region, then a fee for someone to enforce the duration and locations you entered. Then a simple rule of, between this date and this date, chains may be required to be carried, is adequate, It's the simplest way to keep everyone safe.

    If this is all to difficult for you. NSW does not require you to carry chains, if you have an AWD. Stick to NSW. I do for this exact reason.
     
  17. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us

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    I can understand the position of the OP. It is up to the Resort Management during the declared season to decide if chains are required to be carried for day visitors and maybe Baw Baw should be encouraged to review procedure. Decisions are made in the morning of or the night before and would not be changed later in the day. I have seen motorbikes going over Hotham in September when cars have been forced to hire chains. That seemed a little unfair. I doubt any runoff melt/overnight freeze would necessitate the use of chains as there would be too much dry tar in between to warrant the damage to the road.
    A letter of complaint to Baw Baw may not go far but it will go further than a vent on a forum, which goes nowhere to addressing the problem. Quote Alpine Resort Management Regulations No. 56 (as above) and steer them into taking advantage of it. Likely they are just lazy or never really think about it. If you are not aggrieved enough to write a letter of complaint then it is not really too much of a deal. Good to know Buller is thinking about it and maybe other resorts could be reminded as well.
    Victoria roads are significantly different in their approaches to resorts compared with NSW and legislation has been formed, albeit not well, to address the need for safety. Out of season snow may cause some issues but usually the authorities just close the road until it is clear (or cleared). Snow does not usually hang around for too long in the warmer month anyway.
     
  18. Balsta

    Balsta One of Us

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    But this doesn't have anything to do with the conditions requiring these vehicles to fit chains, just over confident drivers, driving badly.
     
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  19. Hermannator

    Hermannator One of Us
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    Please don't go pointing out the loopholes to nanny...
    It's bad enough as it is.

    Next we'll be fitting chains to all vehicles, at all times at Harrietville, Omeo, Noojee, Mt Beauty, Merrijig, Marysville, Warburton (and any other snow hill feeder towns you can think of)...
     
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  20. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable
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    I agree with @tropicalsnow ... its bullshit to enforce a chain requirement on a fine sunny day in late September. They do the same in NSW with police doing chain checks whilst doing RBT.

    Stralya
     
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  21. teckel

    teckel Old n' Crusty
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    I'm going to check out BB in a week. I'll carry chains even though it'll probably be a sunny day and the snow season is over. No big deal to chuck them in the car.
     
  22. teckel

    teckel Old n' Crusty
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    Why should I have to have headlights that work if I'm only going to drive in daylight hours?
    That question makes as much sense as the opening post, if you ask me.
     
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  23. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable
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  24. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum
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    Imagine the carnage if no one had chains on.
     
  25. emkae

    emkae One of Us
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    I think people are now being asked to fit chains these days for conditions, in the past, would not have needed any fitting. For example, on a bluebird day at Buller in Sept this year (the morning AFTER one of the snow storms), there was a little bit of snow on the road and 2WDs were fitting chains. It was probably line ball about the need to fit, but when I saw the old Ford Falcon drive into the day car park with chains on the front wheels, I knew they probably didn't need to be fitted.
     
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  26. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    You probably have access to more chains than the average punter though Tecks!
     
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  27. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

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    No, the analogy is more like, 'why should I be forced to turn on my headlights in daylight hours when they are not needed?'
     
  28. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    Or ‘why carry a pair of spotlights in the boot in case there is an eclipse?’
     
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  29. djam

    djam One of Us

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    I used my headlights to indicate to a truck (B double) carrying a huge load of Hay, just south
    of Yea a few days ago. As he had something dragging under the truck which was making sparks.
    Not good had they ignited the load. Lucky I didn't take the headlights off.

    Turns out one of the inside wheels had shed the outer, and was wrapped around the inside axle,
    the steel belts on the road, causing the sparks.
     
  30. snowtyres

    snowtyres Hard Yards
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    MTBB RMB Toyota (1 of 4) with Nokian studded winter tyres
     
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  31. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us

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    Making legislation clearer or simpler is also about protecting people and their rights. The discussion was already being had and I just contributed to clear up some matters. I would guarantee most people on this forum and for that matter, most people visiting resorts, have any idea of the legislation or the flaws in it. Parks Vic believed they had authority on Mt. Buffalo Road but the National Parks Act contradicts its own regulations and in fact they did not. That will be fixed and I was happy to point it out.

    Why? Maybe just put them on when you leave home (just to continue the hyperbole), except the Road Management Act prohibits the use of snow chains unless directed to use them. That is about not causing unnecessary damage to the road surface. The problem in Vic is too many Acts of Parliament governing road use. I read them all this year just for this particular matter.

    Still required to carry and fit chains when directed or are they exempt? I see no problem having studded snow tyres when the vehicle is being driven 100% above the snow line. For the rest of us punters, chains do quite well enough. Subaru used to have studded tyres fitted as OEM. They did not last very long. That was back in the early 80's or late 70's. Thanks for the input but again you are probably just advertising.
     
  32. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    How would a pair of extra bright lights stored in your boot have helped?
     
  33. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here
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    Sorry, teks' analogy is more correct
    While the road may be clear for day trippers, in an emergency you may have to stay overnight and be in all sorts of excreta if there is an overnight dump
     
  34. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable
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    Wouldn't you be asleep ....
     
  35. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here
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    Not necessarily
     
  36. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

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    That's just silly. It's not like you had to be in your car if that were the case. You would be willfully choosing to drive in snow without chains.

    The real situation described here is already driving on a clear day with good road conditions when there is no chance of snow and being forced to pay for chain hire in order to gain entry to the resort.
     
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  37. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum
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    People do
     
  38. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

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    In that case, they're legitimately liable to be fined. But don't penalise those who are driving in good conditions for the sake of those foolhardy types who knowingly take off ill-prepared in poor conditions.
     
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  39. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty
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    It's a nanny state unfortunately, everything for the LCD. If the rule is absolute then less people can say they didn't know chains were required that day.
     
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  40. Ziggy

    Ziggy Renormed
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    BB has as steep a pitch as you'll find anywhere and as mentioned the weather can change fast. Twice there I've had trouble because of this.
     
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  41. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here
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    Yeh, but tropicalsnow is obviously a better driver than you and me, normal restrictions and physics laws don't apply to him!
     
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  42. Ziggy

    Ziggy Renormed
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    The wise Kingfisher ...
     
  43. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum
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    You mean people who drive up in good weather and are caught by a snowstorm?
     
  44. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

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    Only those who lack the presence of mind to check the weather forecast before they leave. Seriously, how many people would plan to go to the snow and not bother finding out about the weather before they leave?
     
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  45. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty
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    You'd be surprised
     
  46. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable
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    Probably drives much the same as all of us on a sunny day
     
  47. teckel

    teckel Old n' Crusty
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    You're not being 'forced to pay'. You can buy your own, or not go up, or hire from Erica for instance.
     
  48. Balsta

    Balsta One of Us

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    No 4WD‘s have chains on driving to Perisher, which is what we were talking about.
     
  49. Ziggy

    Ziggy Renormed
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    And you've found the forecast for where you live 100% accurate?
    In broad outline it gets close but often not in timing and intensity.
    So if there's a fall, or unexpected ice on the road as Curra mentioned, the driver who's never practiced on a skid pan in their life let alone a steep one reckons AWD confers some braking advantage and sets out to return, a menace to others and their property. All for $25.
     
  50. VSG

    VSG Pool Room
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    Wow. Storm in a teacup. Really? Is this an issue?

    Buy some chains. Or, go to an online auction or buy swap sell site and get some old chains.