1. SPECIAL NOTE TO NEW REGISTRATIONS

    If you recently registered and have not received a confirmation email - please check your 'Spam or Junk' folders. Especially if your email is Hotmail. More help with confirmation issues

    NOTE: This notice may be closed.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. There's more to this forum than meets the eye!

    We have a vibrant community here conversing about all sorts of non-snow topics such as music, sport, politics and technology. Simply register to reveal all our Après topics or continue browsing and reading as a guest.

    NOTE: This notice may be closed.

    Dismiss Notice

Unfair chains requirement

Discussion in 'Mt Baw Baw' started by tropicalsnow, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    28,392
    Likes Received:
    22,331
    Are we? I'm not.
     
  2. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

    Joined:
    May 4, 1999
    Messages:
    3,203
    Likes Received:
    998
    Location:
    vic
    Pls excuse the Tangent:
    Funniest thing as a Vicco at Smiggins ~ 15 years ago. A fine August morn turned to snow but AFIR it was expected.

    So my wife & I decide to call it quits (touring) & head for the Rav. Out of nowhere I slightly troubled dude approaches and asks where can he hire chains.

    In my best drole voice I explained ‘down the mtn’ would be the best bet. I stated at the time all Cars to Vic carried them - not being experts at forecasting.

    So imo a good middle road policy best but favouring safety over $ / laziness if there’s a risk.
     
    neilmny likes this.
  3. gaz35

    gaz35 One of Us

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    433
    we drove to Mt Buffalo on NYD one year. Left home in shorts and T Shirt from Albury. It was snowing by lunchtime when we stopped at the chalet
     
    currawong likes this.
  4. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    It may seem trivial, but it is still an issue of fairness and reasonableness.
     
  5. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,802
    Likes Received:
    8,436
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    You poor little petal. It's just not fair. :cry:
     
  6. neilmny

    neilmny Addicted

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    207
    The idea behind daylight headlights is be seen not to able to see.
     
  7. weerab

    weerab One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,560
    Likes Received:
    981
    Location:
    Beautiful Altona Victoria
    I can't believe I have just read this whole thread. five wasted minutes I won't get back!
     
    neilmny, dawooduck and currawong like this.
  8. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    28,392
    Likes Received:
    22,331
    Exactly. At the moment everyone* knows they have to carry chains. Make it discretionary and people will get to the chain check and be turned around and sent back. People* know the situation now.

    *Assuming they stay on top of current requirements.
     
    currawong likes this.
  9. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,802
    Likes Received:
    8,436
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    It clearly states on Baw Baw's website that "Please be advised that during declared snow season you are required to carry snow chains. Chains are available for hire at resort entry, Erica, Neerim South, Noojee, Tanjil Bren and Icy Creek." No ifs, maybes or possiblys. They are required to be carried by all vehicles during the declared snow season. They can't be much clearer than that.
     
  10. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2002
    Messages:
    57,585
    Likes Received:
    25,649
    Location:
    East Coast
    Nanny state nannies are nannying
     
  11. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    It would be better if the resort management used a bit of discretion on days when there is zero chance of snow and road conditions are good and they know snow chains will not be needed. To me, it looks like they are taking advantage of the law for financial gain in these situations.

    Even better would be to encourage personal responsibility over always taking the legislative path and limiting freedom.
     
    dawooduck likes this.
  12. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    28,392
    Likes Received:
    22,331
    How does the resort make a financial gain?

    As for personal responsibility, have you seen the Perisher road after a day's snowfall? 4WDs all over the place*.

    *Is there an echo in here?
     
    currawong likes this.
  13. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    1,559
    Have you written that letter of complaint yet?
    Unless the resort declares it a day you do not have to. But that appears not be be mentioned. The resort should be aware of weather conditions and forecasts and can make a reasonable judgement call. The resort is also not obligated to make the call not to carry chains and maybe it is just too confusing for everyone. If that is the case then that regulation should be removed. Yes, unfair, but build a bridge. It was $25. Likely the cheapest part about going to a resort.
     
    MickM likes this.
  14. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Messages:
    24,306
    Likes Received:
    7,954
    Location:
    Gippsland
    Well, actually, the resort does make a financial gain if you hire chains at the gate entry, having taken over the chain hire from the guy who established it in that place!
    Grrrrrrr!
     
    tropicalsnow likes this.
  15. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Messages:
    24,306
    Likes Received:
    7,954
    Location:
    Gippsland
    same same on Baw Baw Road, mostly on their side or upside down!
     
  16. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    28,392
    Likes Received:
    22,331
    Didn't know that. Not a good look. I sort of understand why people might be pissed off.
     
  17. MickM

    MickM One of Us Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    3,030
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Location:
    Gordon, Vic
    Makes sense. Don't know BB road, but at Buller they make a call on the daily report (for daytrippers only, overnight everyone has to carry chains). Electronic signs at the gate also clearly state if required or not for 2wd or 4wd/awd.

    On my last day trip to Buller there was zero chance of snow/ice & when I was at the servo someone (newby) asked if they can hire some chains & was told they didn't need them today, glad they didn't just make a quick $25.

    Doesn't affect me as I have my own & always carry them.
     
  18. bawbawskier77

    bawbawskier77 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    50
    Seriously what a crock of shit. You would have driven past at least 3 signs to get to that point saying you need to carry chains and other chain suppliers.

    Mt baw baw has one of, if not the steepest entry and exit roads.

    We had a working party in mid April one year and couldn’t get out as we had snow fall and would have needed chains fitted to get out. No rain/snow was forecast that weekend. We now take our chains from March to November.

    I agree with other remarks that safety first approach, I am guessing you are the type that would complain if they made you fit chains and you weren’t slipping off the road,but would jump up and down and blame the resort if you they didn’t make you fit chains and you slide off.

    Having seen some of the drivers that go up the hill and attempt driving down you can see why the policy is the way it is.
     
    MickM likes this.
  19. MickM

    MickM One of Us Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    3,030
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Location:
    Gordon, Vic
    I wasn't aware of this. So, much easier for Buller to have a different policy.

    I also get the feeling a lot of people confuse AWD/4WD to be better on ICE, which is wrong esp when braking.
     
  20. bawbawskier77

    bawbawskier77 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    50
    Mick here is some interesting info if you are struggling to sleep at night!

    https://www.dangerousroads.org/australia-and-oceania/australia/3485-mount-baw-baw-tourist-road.html

    https://mountbawbaw.com.au/resort-entry-road-cycling

    http://theclimbingcyclist.com/climbs/baw-baw-national-park/mt-baw-baw/

    "Cycling up the Mt Baw Baw Tourist Road to the Baw Baw village is not for the faint hearted. Some professional riders have considered the ascent of Mt Baw Baw as the second hardest climb in the world of cycling and is sure to test your endurance; a gradient of 20.6% is recoded at Winch Corner.
    The road was asphalted in 1990. It’s a beautiful drive through the National Park then up narrow and windy roads to Mt Baw Baw. The access road to the resort, the Mount Baw Baw Tourist Road, features one of the toughest climbs accessible by road bicycles in Australia. The final climb of 6.2 kilometres rises 718 metres at an average grade of 11.5%, maxing out at 20.3%. The climb is not as long as, but considerably steeper than any of the hors catégorie climbs featured in the Tour de France.
    Don’t rely on your GPS! Some GPS systems don’t work well in the region. Ranked among the hardest road climbs in Australia, the ascent of Mt. Baw Baw presents a challenge for cyclists of all abilities. The first half of the climb is friendly enough but at an average gradient of over 10%, the second half of this climb is not for the faint of heart! Local folklore says the hard part of Mt Baw Baw road is the final 6km from the gatehouse to the summit which has an elevation gain of 780m. The average gradient is 11.3% with some parts reaching 20%."
     
    MickM likes this.
  21. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Like Astro, I avoid Victorian Resorts due to the Snow Chain laws; annoying. This thread has just reminded me to swap over my snow rated A/T tyres for the Highway Terrain's so they remain in good nic for next winter!
     
  22. bawbawskier77

    bawbawskier77 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    50
    Just another reason to do a trump and build a border wall!!! Gotta keep the mexicans out
     
  23. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    I'm certainly willing to have chains fitted if they are necessary, as was the situation on my Baw Baw trip on a day in September, 2017 when it was snowing and icy. But this year there was simply no justification. The road was clear, the weather well above freezing (it was a sunny, 12 degree day on the mountain with zero chance of any snow or rain for that matter).

    As I've said before but feel I need to say again because some commentators here don't understand, it was clearly a case that the resort were taking advantage of the compulsory chain requirement to gain a few extra dollars by forcing motorists without chains to hire them from the resort's chain service at the entry gate.
     
    dawooduck likes this.
  24. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    30,143
    Likes Received:
    13,313
    Location:
    Kiewa Valley
    in over 35 years of skiing at Falls I have never seen them waive the chain requirement in the declared snow season. There is absolutely no financial advantage to Resort Management in requiring chains. Why then is it clear to you that financial gain is the only possible explanation at baw baw?
     
  25. bawbawskier77

    bawbawskier77 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    50
    That's a massive call/accusation to make, given you drove past 2-3 signs about compulsory chains (depending on which direction you came in) and the website has compulsory chains on it.

    Also that you have been there before makes it even more laughable to make that remark, as you would have driven past the same signs about compulsory chains.

    .
     
  26. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,802
    Likes Received:
    8,436
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    Most people going to BB are fully aware of the chain requirements. If they need to hire them, they have the option of hiring them off mountain, the same option you had.

    So you think that individuals should be the arbiter of whether or not they need chains?
    I have a customer who comes to me every year and whinges about having to hire chains when he doesn't need to fit them. His wife rolls her eyes. (He seems to have a knack of choosing the days when chains are required for Lake Mountain.) This year he had to hire them again. He was angry. His wife told him to pay the money and shut up. Hey, guess what? He needed to fit them - conditions were bad. Wife thought it was so funny. And even he said he'd never complain again! LOL
     
    bawbawskier77 and currawong like this.
  27. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    Yes, but what I didn't expect was that on a day when clearly snow chains were never going to be needed that I would be asked at the gate whether I was carrying chains and then directed to hire chains from the resort.
     
  28. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,802
    Likes Received:
    8,436
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    What part of "compulsory" don't you understand?
     
    bawbawskier77 likes this.
  29. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    30,143
    Likes Received:
    13,313
    Location:
    Kiewa Valley
    you are probably lucky that it was rmb rather than the police, who may have done you for not having them
     
  30. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,802
    Likes Received:
    8,436
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    Just to fill in people from interstate:
    Chains must be carried by all vehicles during winter at Mt Baw Baw, Mt Hotham and Falls Creek.
    Mt Hotham and Mt Baw Baw won't permit ladder or spider chains - they must be diamond pattern.
    Mt Buller and Lake Mountain specify on the day whether chains must be carried for 2WDs (LM & Buller) or 4WDs (Buller only). Daytrippers. All overnight vehicles to Buller require chains regardless of any forecast.
    Buses must carry chains during winter for all resorts.
    No point arguing. It's the way it is. If you don't like it, don't go. Simple. Go instead to resorts with easy peasy roads like in NSW.
     
    bawbawskier77, MickM and Charlie like this.
  31. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    The legal requirement to carry chains is a blunt instrument. When the forecast is dry and above freezing and the road clear, the mandatory chain requirement is plainly absurd! Sure, if one were to spend a few days in the mountains during the snow season, one would be foolish not to carry chains. But for a day trip on a dry, mild day with clear roads? I would hope they would exercise some discretion before deciding whether to issue a penalty.
     
  32. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    28,392
    Likes Received:
    22,331
    Almost all road rules are blunt instruments.
     
  33. bawbawskier77

    bawbawskier77 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    50
    I believe the other options you had on the day rather than hire chains from the resort would be, in no particular order,
    1. use the bus services to the top of the hill and park at the bottom,
    2. turn around and go back to hire chains at erica or icy creek or noojee
    3. turn around and go back home.

    It appears to be that you knew that chains were a requirement, decided to run the gaunlet, now are whinging about having to hire them from the resort.

    There is a solution, there is an election in 5 weeks...maybe run for state parliament and change the rules that way.
     
    teckel likes this.
  34. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    I have to say, I didn't know one could park at the bottom and catch a bus up. How frequent are the buses?

    A change to the law would be welcome. At least if it could be more refined with respect to road conditions and the weather forecast that would be a step forward.
     
  35. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,802
    Likes Received:
    8,436
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    Chains packed in the car ready for my daytrip to BB tomorrow. Forecast 1 to 14, sunny. Chance of precipitation - 0%.
    :)
     
    currawong and MickM like this.
  36. bawbawskier77

    bawbawskier77 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    50
    not sure on bus frequancy...its a 6-10 seater van and i have never had to use it was we own chains and always carry them in season
     
    tropicalsnow likes this.
  37. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,802
    Likes Received:
    8,436
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    Haha! The Ban Snowchains for Baw Baw Party
    or
    Snowchains Optional for Baw Baw In North Gippsland Party (the SOBBING Party)
     
  38. bawbawskier77

    bawbawskier77 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    50
    Comedy Gold in here today!
     
  39. MickM

    MickM One of Us Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    3,030
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Location:
    Gordon, Vic
    Bottom line. If you are a frequent visitor to Alpine environments, regardless of vehicle or where you ski (ie NSW) it is a no brainer to buy a set of chains IMO.

    As others have stated 150-200 dollars should buy a good quality second hand set. You then are assured they fit properly too.

    Mine sit in the back of the car all year round, you just never know!!
     
    currawong likes this.
  40. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    I may buy chains for next year. But I still like to know that the law is fair to those who don't have them.

    A welcome amendment and refinement to the law might read something like: for day trips to any resort where the forecast temperature is above freezing, the probability of 1mm or more is less than 10%, and the roads are clear that chains not be required to be carried.
     
  41. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Messages:
    24,306
    Likes Received:
    7,954
    Location:
    Gippsland
     
    neilmny, teckel and bawbawskier77 like this.
  42. bawbawskier77

    bawbawskier77 Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 13, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    50
    you forgot to add the i have done this hundreds of times before so why would i need them today clause
     
    teckel likes this.
  43. weerab

    weerab One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,560
    Likes Received:
    981
    Location:
    Beautiful Altona Victoria
    Enjoy your bushwalk Teckel, are you camping up there? Sorry, you did say day trip!
     
    teckel likes this.
  44. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Messages:
    4,174
    Likes Received:
    247
    Location:
    vic
    Not quite steep enough for our Racing Toboggan.
    A quiet ski in the moonlight ?
    Might even be the longest run in Australia ?
     
    Charlie likes this.
  45. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    1,559
    Just to clarify, this is not entirely correct. ALL Resorts have the same rules to follow which are set out in the Alpine Resort Management Act and Regulations. Some resorts make use of the regulation (56) which allows the RMB to determine if chains must be carried.
    Subregulation 3 of Reg 56
    (3) In making a determination under subregulation
    (1), the prescribed Board must take into account
    public safety considerations, including—
    (a) the general conditions of the roads; and
    (b) the extent of any snow or ice on the roads;
    and
    (c) the latest available weather forecasts.


    Overnight visitors to ALL resorts during the declared season must carry chains regardless.

    There is no need for a change in law in this respect as the RMB can look at the prevailing weather and the forecast for the next day to make a decision. I would suggest the RMB would have a pretty good handle on the weather and road conditions so there is no need for the individual numb nut driver to make a judgement call. It is up to the RMB and its discretion. If the RMB decides it will not use reg 56 discretion then it is still within the law to demand people carry chains. Unfair? So what, it does not discriminate.

    The only reference in any legislation I can find to the type of chains to be carried is in the Road Safety (Vehicle) Regulations - Reg 267 but that is in reference to a declared Hazardous Vehicle area and specifically in reference only to what is referred to as a 'relevant vehicle' which does not include the family car. So it may be that ladder and spider chains cannot be prohibited by any RMB on the family car. Vic Roads website only says that Hotham will not allow ladder chains but it seems again the legislation is lacking to back it up. The Alpine Resort Management Act and Regs DO NOT specify the type of chains to be carried. Maybe the RMB has another power (other than legislation) to direct the type of chains to be carried but I would suggest, unless such power is vested in legislation, then it can only be a recommendation.

    If you feel strongly enough then make a complaint to the RMB and find out its reasoning otherwise it is pointless to whinge on this forum. It will not achieve anything and there is little support. I do understand the frustration of the OP but we are going in circles.
     
    currawong likes this.
  46. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,802
    Likes Received:
    8,436
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    I think that's what I said. But in language that's easier for the layman to interpret and combined with how the different resorts enforce it. (no overnight accomm at LM). I also combined it with what the different resorts do in relation to type of chain. Now, if someone wants to sit at the gate and argue with some poor RMB employee as to what the act says in regards to type of chain - good luck - they're not going to get far. And honestly, I think the use of ladder chains anywhere should be banned - there are far better and safer options these days - and chains are about safety.
     
    neilmny likes this.
  47. tropicalsnow

    tropicalsnow Hard Yards

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    Sure, it doesn't discriminate but that's no justification for slugging motorists with a chain hire fee from their own franchise when there is absolutely no need for the chains to be used. They were simply doing it to make an extra buck, as I've said before.
     
    dawooduck likes this.
  48. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    1,559
    Not entirely, but I did not say you were entirely wrong either. When all else fails you refer to legislation. Your interpretation was not entirely accurate and I found it a little confusing. If an RMB attempts to enforce something it has not power over then it will come unstuck if tested. The poor RMB employee can be ignored and then what? They call in the Police. Police understand legislation better (at least they should) and they also understand the need for accuracy in law. If it is not written in law then it cannot be enforced. I also agree the law should be changed to make it clearer about the type of chain and specifically prohibit ladder chains for all vehicles. It does not appear to be the case now. To be clear, I am not arguing what should be, just what is and I have already stated there is too much ambiguity in the snow chain legislation.
     
  49. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    1,559
    I get your point and as I have said before, do something positive to affect a change or just build a bridge and get over it. How many other ways do resorts have to extract money from you unfairly? Start a thread complaining about that also. What about your local council? It rips you off too. $25 does not seem worth all the aggravation and venting. That would be the cost of what? 2 beers at a resort. There are bigger issues. Blizzard Brewery at Dinner Plain charges $35 for a 6 pack. Robbery. I am simply not going back there. Do the same to Baw Baw.
     
  50. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    28,392
    Likes Received:
    22,331
    Let me get this straight. You are aware of the requirement, but you ignored it because you think you know better. You passed several warning signs but you ignored them because you think you know better. You passed multiple alternate chain hire places, but you ignored them because you think you know better. And you expect sympathy?
     
    neilmny, currawong and Charlie like this.