USA 21/22 Planning

[sli1]

The USA and Canada are opening to each other and Europe. Double vaccinated people from Australia will be welcome. Surely people are planning.

While the Australian government "plan" wouldn't see us allowed to go anywhere this season, I'm really struggling to see things pan out that way. My prediction is that as we move to the virus becoming endemic we will have a pretty soft landing. Well before December we are going to see other developed countries out and about and visiting each other with no fear of lockdowns. There will be enormous pressure on the government to allow double vaccinated people to travel with appropriate -PCR test controls to avoid hotel quarantine. The support they get from the masses to keep the place locked up will depend on how successfully they are scaring people with irrelevant positive case rates versus the real measure of hospitalisations and deaths.

My hope is for a two March trip to Taos (snow dependent-Taos can be finicky given that it is a very steep mountain) or even a spring slush trip to Tahoe or Oregon in April.

What have you got?

 

[MarzNC]

Obviously easier for me to plan starting from North Carolina in the USA.

Oregon in April after a week or so at Alta is a possibility. Have a good friend who lives a couple hours from Bachelor. Went there in May once, which was fun but a bit too late.

Set for Taos in early February. Had to cancel Feb 2021, but ended up going in March instead. Not too many Texans on spring break trips because of capacity limits. We got powder storms.

 

[absentskier]

Very hopeful of a Jan 2023 trip to North America (or Japan) but I can't see Jan 2022 being possible (and Jan is our travel window).

 

[sli1]

Obviously easier for me to plan starting from North Carolina in the USA.

Oregon in April after a week or so at Alta is a possibility. Have a good friend who lives a couple hours from Bachelor. Went there in May once, which was fun but a bit too late.

Set for Taos in early February. Had to cancel Feb 2021, but ended up going in March instead. Not too many Texans on spring break trips because of capacity limits. We got powder storms.

Marz, flying from Australia, I now have some trepidation about the US now with the whole Ikon and Epic thing. I get that they facilitate a cheaper lift pass but frankly the existence of these passes and the subsequent lift in skier density is a significant factor (at least in my mind, if not in reality) in prioritising Europe over the US for a trip from Australia despite what a longer transit time.

So with that context, did you go to Alta/Snowbird in late March/April this year? What were the crowds like?

 

[CarveMan]

Very hopeful of a Jan 2023 trip to North America (or Japan) but I can't see Jan 2022 being possible (and Jan is our travel window).

I think the government is going to make a point of ruling out Xmas holiday travel, with spring skiing a chance.

 

[MarzNC]

Marz, flying from Australia, I now have some trepidation about the US now with the whole Ikon and Epic thing. I get that they facilitate a cheaper lift pass but frankly the existence of these passes and the subsequent lift in skier density is a significant factor (at least in my mind, if not in reality) in prioritising Europe over the US for a trip from Australia despite what a longer transit time.

So with that context, did you go to Alta/Snowbird in late March/April this year? What were the crowds like?

I've been going in April annually since 2010 to meet up with friends at Alta Lodge. The number of people during late season at Alta/Snowbird hasn't really changed since they joined the MCP and later Ikon. Mostly because the local season pass holders have had a season of powder turns so not as many of them show up even after a powder storm. That said, when Ballroom or Devil's Castle open up, they get tracked out pretty fast. Again, it's more because the population of Salt Lake City has grown quite a bit in recent years than because Alta/Snowbird are connected to multi-resort passes.

I skied at Alta in Dec 2020 and April 2021. Capacity was limited for weekends or powder days only by the capacity of the parking. If I remember correctly, my usual instructor said they were averaging 3000 skiers per day instead of 4000. There were fewer Americans willing to fly for ski trips, especially from the northeast.

Taos is on both the MCP and Ikon. It's still rare there is much of a lift line except on Sat mornings when the locals show up. never a line of more than a couple minutes after lunch. I've been going for a Taos Ski Week since 2017, when TSV joined the MCP. Changing Lift 1 to a high-speed detachable has made TSV more fun in my opinion.

In general, a bit hard to tease out the actual impact of Epic and Ikon on skier numbers because there are many people who moved to Denver or Reno or SLC/Ogden in order to be closer to the mountains. When I've seen actual stats put out by the resorts, it's clear that the super crowded days were mostly because locals skipped work to chase powder. The locals just wanted to blame Ikon/Epic pass holders even though they were using their season passes more often because it was a good snow season.

Work From Home was starting in some professions before 2020. The exodus from big cities in the eastern half of the country has been increasing for a decade. Bozeman in Montana (Bridger, Big Sky) is one of the fastest growing small cities.

I expect there will be pent up demand that may fill American resorts this season. I know slopeside lodging at Taos booked up pretty quickly starting a couple months ago.

 

[sli1]

I've been going in April annually since 2010 to meet up with friends at Alta Lodge. The number of people during late season at Alta/Snowbird hasn't really changed since they joined the MCP and later Ikon. Mostly because the local season pass holders have had a season of powder turns so not as many of them show up even after a powder storm. That said, when Ballroom or Devil's Castle open up, they get tracked out pretty fast. Again, it's more because the population of Salt Lake City has grown quite a bit in recent years than because Alta/Snowbird are connected to multi-resort passes.

I skied at Alta in Dec 2020 and April 2021. Capacity was limited for weekends or powder days only by the capacity of the parking. If I remember correctly, my usual instructor said they were averaging 3000 skiers per day instead of 4000. There were fewer Americans willing to fly for ski trips, especially from the northeast.

Taos is on both the MCP and Ikon. It's still rare there is much of a lift line except on Sat mornings when the locals show up. never a line of more than a couple minutes after lunch. I've been going for a Taos Ski Week since 2017, when TSV joined the MCP. Changing Lift 1 to a high-speed detachable has made TSV more fun in my opinion.

In general, a bit hard to tease out the actual impact of Epic and Ikon on skier numbers because there are many people who moved to Denver or Reno or SLC/Ogden in order to be closer to the mountains. When I've seen actual stats put out by the resorts, it's clear that the super crowded days were mostly because locals skipped work to chase powder. The locals just wanted to blame Ikon/Epic pass holders even though they were using their season passes more often because it was a good snow season.

Work From Home was starting in some professions before 2020. The exodus from big cities in the eastern half of the country has been increasing for a decade. Bozeman in Montana (Bridger, Big Sky) is one of the fastest growing small cities.

I expect there will be pent up demand that may fill American resorts this season. I know slopeside lodging at Taos booked up pretty quickly starting a couple months ago.

Thanks Marz, not so concerned about Taos as its a long way from any major population centre but my experience at most big North American resorts is that powder days have become an increasingly chaotic frenzy. I agree with you about the pent up demand and that is another reason why said benefit of an April trip. Like you say, especially if there has been a good season, people have been satiated and are moving on to warmer activities like mountain biking.

 

[summit_32]

I have Park City booked for the Xmas week. I'm thinking its going to be super busy based on last years experience and the likelihood that there won't be a reservation system for the 21/22 Nth American season.
We considered Whistler too but the uncertainty of cross-border travel even between the US & CAN makes it not worth it. My experience has been that Whistler can be feast or famine in late Dec anyway.

 

[MarzNC]

I have Park City booked for the Xmas week. I'm thinking its going to be super busy based on last years experience and the likelihood that there won't be a reservation system for the 21/22 Nth American season.
We considered Whistler too but the uncertainty of cross-border travel even between the US & CAN makes it not worth it. My experience has been that Whistler can be feast or famine in late Dec anyway.

Agree that lift access reservations are generally unlikely. But I won't be too surprised if VR and Alterra decide to require reservations during holiday periods. Powdr might use parking reservations for busy days. Issues with parking started pre-pandemic.

Do you mean the week before Xmas or the week after Dec. 25? The earlier week will undoubtedly be busier because of pent up demand and the fact that Xmas is on a Saturday. Many schools will already be on vacation.

I'm headed to Wolf Creek in southern Colorado for a mid-Dec trip with three ski/travel buddies. The four of us were there in Feb 2021 and loved it. Going to be a bit more of adventure traveling because I've decided to drive from North Carolina. My ski buddy from the midwest will be driving east with me starting the Dec. 18-19 weekend. Neither of us really wanted to deal with flying that week. Mostly because we expect flights to be full. Air fares were already relative high even a month ago.

 

[summit_32]

Its the week prior to Xmas (19-26 Dec), not ideal but those dates are fixed for a bunch of reasons. I've flown a fair bit recently and every flight has been full. I think its going to be like that for the next 6-12 months as airlines manage yield tightly. So, if you have the time a road trip would be awesome.
Would love to do Wolf Creek - i hope you get great early season conditions like this season.

 

[oreo]

I live in park city. The week before Christmas is usually a little quieter than the week after Christmas. But perhaps it will be different this year. Particularly since so many have actually moved to town/slc since the pandemic. No mud season anymore.

thankful for the no reservation system & also hopeful they’ll load every chair this season to help reduce the craziness of the lift lines last year.

there’s no escaping the insanity that is a weekend lcc/bcc resort or backcountry trailhead. Get there pre-dawn.

 

[Roymond]

We are planning 2022-2023 as travel from Oz will be really unlikely until mid 2022 I’m guessing…
The family are keen to go back to SunPeaks ,BC but I’ve always had a thing to check out telluride. Anyone had any experience here? The scenery looks amazing. We are a family of solid upper intermediates and are happy at sunpeaks, snowmass, big white etc.
what is peoples experience at telluride?

 

[oreo]

Telluride has plenty of blue and black / double black trails. I don’t think they have too many green trails. The mountain skews towards the advanced trails for sure - way more than big white/sun peaks which are definitely blue dominated.

cool place, spectacular scenery, funky town. Isolated location. Don’t expect to be able to do too much other than ski. Bring lots of cash. It’s REALLY expensive.

 

[absentskier]

We are planning 2022-2023 as travel from Oz will be really unlikely until mid 2022 I’m guessing…
The family are keen to go back to SunPeaks ,BC but I’ve always had a thing to check out telluride. Anyone had any experience here? The scenery looks amazing. We are a family of solid upper intermediates and are happy at sunpeaks, snowmass, big white etc.
what is peoples experience at telluride?

https://www.zrankings.com/ski-resorts/163-telluride-ski-resort

 

[MarzNC]

The family are keen to go back to SunPeaks ,BC but I’ve always had a thing to check out telluride. Anyone had any experience here? The scenery looks amazing. We are a family of solid upper intermediates and are happy at sunpeaks, snowmass, big white etc.
what is peoples experience at telluride?

Agree with Oreo's assessment up to a point. There are a few very long greens that can be fun from what a host told me. I went to Telluride once after a week at Taos. The blue groomers are very wide and long. The only issue is that if upper lifts go on wind hold then it takes 20-30 minutes to go from one side of the resort to the other. Although my friends and I are advanced skiers, I spent a couple afternoons solo just exploring when it was snowing and low visibility. At the time one of my friends didn't do well when she couldn't see so they went in early. When I'm at a new resort I like to ride all the lifts just to get a feel for the place, including lifts that only serve green/blue terrain.

People who like Snowmass blues should like Telluride.

Very expensive, even in comparison to other Epic/Ikon destination resorts. We shared a very nice condo in town with 4 bedrooms. It was a short stay and we are all old enough to be willing to pay for a separate room. That was the most expensive condo we have ever shared, partially because it was over a holiday weekend.

Scenery is indeed amazing. The blue that goes along the top ridge is lots of fun on a good weather day.

A wide blue, see the people?

 

[absentskier]

The town itself is an attraction. I love the classic American ski towns. Adds a different element to the holiday beyond what the purpose built 'resorts' on a hill offer.

 

[Zeroz]

We are planning 2022-2023 as travel from Oz will be really unlikely until mid 2022 I’m guessing…
The family are keen to go back to SunPeaks ,BC but I’ve always had a thing to check out telluride. Anyone had any experience here? The scenery looks amazing. We are a family of solid upper intermediates and are happy at sunpeaks, snowmass, big white etc.
what is peoples experience at telluride?

I like variety in my ski locations but Telluride is one of my favourite places, first went nearly 30 years ago and keep returning.

Great for families and a good range of stuff for intermediates, more if you are looking to challenge and improve.

A search for 'Telluride' just in the title will give you 10 threads.

 

[Cpt. Caveman]

The USA and Canada are opening to each other and Europe. Double vaccinated people from Australia will be welcome. Surely people are planning.

While the Australian government "plan" wouldn't see us allowed to go anywhere this season, I'm really struggling to see things pan out that way. My prediction is that as we move to the virus becoming endemic we will have a pretty soft landing. Well before December we are going to see other developed countries out and about and visiting each other with no fear of lockdowns. There will be enormous pressure on the government to allow double vaccinated people to travel with appropriate -PCR test controls to avoid hotel quarantine. The support they get from the masses to keep the place locked up will depend on how successfully they are scaring people with irrelevant positive case rates versus the real measure of hospitalisations and deaths.

My hope is for a two March trip to Taos (snow dependent-Taos can be finicky given that it is a very steep mountain) or even a spring slush trip to Tahoe or Oregon in April.

What have you got?

Wouldn't do any of those. It's a drought year in the Western US and Taos and Tahoe are basically high desert locations. You'll be skiing grass and sand.

 

[Kash]

I like variety in my ski locations but Telluride is one of my favourite places, first went nearly 30 years ago and keep returning.

Great for families and a good range of stuff for intermediates, more if you are looking to challenge and improve.

A search for 'Telluride' just in the title will give you 10 threads.

Great place, mountain and a sweet little town. Worth a day trip to Crested Butte if you have time too.

Anyone interested should google pics of the airport at Telluride. Amazing experience landing there.

 

[Cpt. Caveman]

Great place, mountain and a sweet little town. Worth a day trip to Crested Butte if you have time too.

Anyone interested should google pics of the airport at Telluride. Amazing experience landing there.

I have landed there. Have also been diverted to Montrose in bad weather which sucked.

 

[Zeroz]

Telluride airport is great, 5 mins from town, but United stopped flying into Telluride (TEX). Now the access is via Montrose.
Weather, weight, airport altitude, was always a problem with skis and luggage getting left behind, just too unreliable.

Highest commercial airport in Nth America at 10k ft, on a small plateau in 14k peaks, fun, steep descent. A personal example:

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DEN-TEX, small plane, single seats separated by a narrow aisle. We're sitting ready to go in Denver.​

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The pilot leaves his seat and, hunched over, makes his way down the plane aisle. He gets to us, two 95kg lads sitting on the same side of the plane. "Sorry, but one of you needs to move to the other side of the plane."​

​

We were unbalancing the whole plane. Apparently it was a delicate calculation.​

​

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Image this covered in snow and ice.​

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[MarzNC]

​

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Image this covered in snow and ice.​

​

How about like this? Airport in the center of the pic. It was a low snow season.

 

[Kash]

How about like this? Airport in the center of the pic. It was a low snow season.

Amazing. I remember flying in and the plane didnt feel as though it was descending much, it just flew on to the runway which appeared out of nowhere.

 

[Cpt. Caveman]

How about like this? Airport in the center of the pic. It was a low snow season.

Lovely shot. Those slopes in the background south-facing too. Less snow.

 

[Zeroz]

Super convenient airport to Telluride - a pic from somewhere off Gold Hill which would be about 11k feet.
Great access if you have a private jet like Telluride residents Oprah, Seinfeld and Tom Cruise.

Skiing is pretty good too.

The town is also quite convenient to the slopes.

 

[absentskier]

Sigh...

 

[MarzNC]

The town is also quite convenient to the slopes.

There is a cat track trail to ski down to the town for folks who aren't interested in thinking too hard at the end of the day. Or can ride the gondola down.

The gondola is public transport between the town, the main base, and the mountain lodging center. Runs until pretty late at night for people who want to go somewhere in the evening for dinner. There is a free bus that runs a loop around the town. Locals seem to use fat tire bikes for shopping almost more than cars. Parking is very limited.

 

[MarzNC]

Americans are getting into "pre-season" mode. I'm getting emails from the ski resorts about special deals or reminders of deadlines for season passes. Prices go up after the Labor Day holiday, which is Sept. 6.

The flight schedules for Jan-Mar 2022 for Southwest should be coming out in a few weeks. Although last winter, SW kept changing the schedule because of the pandemic. That's happening for the fall schedule because of Delta. One reason I'm driving to Colorado in Dec.

Epic Pass prices set to increase after Labor Day

Monday, Sept. 6, is the last day to get the lowest price on Epic Passes this season before prices go up Tuesday, Sept. 7. Priced at $783 for adults, the Epic Pass offers unlimited, unrestricted...

www.summitdaily.com

 

[sli1]

What's the talk so far in regards to Covid operations restrictions - will there be any?

 

[MarzNC]

What's the talk so far in regards to Covid operations restrictions - will there be any?

Emails from ski resorts are just starting. There will be more after the Labor Day (today) that signals the end of summer vacation. There are resorts where staff who are not full-time for 12 months aren't around until after that.

The expectation is that indoor masking will be required, but that lift access reservations won't be. Whatever plans that were announced a few months ago during pre-season pass sales for 2021-2022 are obsolete because of Delta.

I'm wondering if Powdr will continue to use the parking reservation system for their destinations resorts like Snowbird or Copper. Making a parking reservation was free. Having it in place for the Christmas holidays and weekends could be useful. Saturdays were typically booked up in Jan-Feb 2021. Avoided people driving to full parking lots on powder days midweek as well. Some spots weren't release until a week before. People could cancel up until the start time, so last minute openings did happen that locals could grab.

I expect a few more ski areas to implement RFID ticketing.

 

[MarzNC]

In the northeast, vaccination rates are high but there are plenty of people who were waiting for full FDA approval. That's happened for Pfizer and expected soon for Moderna. Sunday River in Maine draws heavily from the Boston market. SR is holding a vaccination clinic Sept. 9, with D2 scheduled at the resort in late Sept. Fall colors typically start in mid-Sept in parts of Maine. A 4-season resort like SR has lots of resort lodging, as well as many season pass holders who own/lease condos very close to the resort. Presumably they are hoping that most people who show up in the next couple months will be vaccinated.

In Sep-Oct 2020 there were capacity limits and travel restrictions in all the northeastern states with ski resorts (NY, MA, VT, NH, ME). I doubt very much that any American state will impose travel restrictions again. Capacity limits indoors might come back in the northeast, but not outdoors.

 

[MarzNC]

Per usual, there probably will be variation by region/state in terms of rules at American ski resorts for 2021-22.

The first ski resort to be put in writing that they do not plan to have any mask requirement is Whitefish in Montana. Whitefish has grown quite a bit in recent years from what I've heard. It's become popular for people from the midwest. Even possible to take the train from Chicago.

 

[MarzNC]

The shift in thinking for the N. American ski industry started a month or two ago. While I have no doubt that ski areas/resorts will be open in spite of Delta, there will be adjustments to help keep COVID-19 from spreading among employees and customers. Now that the traditional Labor Day holiday is over, which signals the end of summer vacations, people are starting to pay attention to news about the upcoming 2021-22 season.

There are two big snowsports shows for the general public that usually happen during the pre-season. One in Boston and the other in Denver. They were taken over by SIA (Snowsports Industries America) in Nov 2019. Needless to say the 2020 ski shows were cancelled early on before too much planning was done. For 2021, everyone expected holding the shows wouldn't be that complicated but that was before Delta spread in the USA over the summer. Officially SIA says the shows were "postponed." There will be some sort of virtual experience offered.

September 8, 2021 (USA)

SIA's inaugural Snowbound Festivals postponed once again

After their debuts were delayed last year due to the pandemic, the B2C events scheduled for November in Denver and Boston have been moved to 2022 as Covid cases surge.

outsidebusinessjournal.com

July 24, 2021 (USA)

Boston ski show cancellation is the first sign that we're in for a very different ski season - New England Ski Journal

The first sign that, perhaps, we should prepare for a less-than-normal winter season in New England, dropped on Thursday.

www.skijournal.com

 

[summit_32]

The shift in thinking for the N. American ski industry started a month or two ago. While I have no doubt that ski areas/resorts will be open in spite of Delta, there will be adjustments to help keep COVID-19 from spreading among employees and customers. Now that the traditional Labor Day holiday is over, which signals the end of summer vacations, people are starting to pay attention to news about the upcoming 2021-22 season.

There are two big snowsports shows for the general public that usually happen during the pre-season. One in Boston and the other in Denver. They were taken over by SIA (Snowsports Industries America) in Nov 2019. Needless to say the 2020 ski shows were cancelled early on before too much planning was done. For 2021, everyone expected holding the shows wouldn't be that complicated but that was before Delta spread in the USA over the summer. Officially SIA says the shows were "postponed." There will be some sort of virtual experience offered.

September 8, 2021 (USA)

SIA's inaugural Snowbound Festivals postponed once again

After their debuts were delayed last year due to the pandemic, the B2C events scheduled for November in Denver and Boston have been moved to 2022 as Covid cases surge.

outsidebusinessjournal.com

July 24, 2021 (USA)

Boston ski show cancellation is the first sign that we're in for a very different ski season - New England Ski Journal

The first sign that, perhaps, we should prepare for a less-than-normal winter season in New England, dropped on Thursday.

www.skijournal.com

I'm not sure this is right - more likely that it was commercial pressures with events that caused them to cancel/postpone rather than a COVID spike. I was in Boston last weekend and it was absolutely packed with tourists, baseball fans etc and life felt very normal (well, a new normal anyway). Last Friday, MA did reinstitute an indoor mask mandate but that's fairly common now too for anyone travelling.
Statements like "we could not guarantee a completely risk-free environment for winter enthusiasts of all ages", are frankly ridiculous - COVID is not going away any time soon so these events will still have an element of risk in 2022 for those who choose to exhibit and/or attend. I suspect the alternate, outdoor event in Denver in Jan will be well patronised.

 

[MarzNC]

I'm not sure this is right - more likely that it was commercial pressures with events that caused them to cancel/postpone rather than a COVID spike. I was in Boston last weekend and it was absolutely packed with tourists, baseball fans etc and life felt very normal (well, a new normal anyway). Last Friday, MA did reinstitute an indoor mask mandate but that's fairly common now too for anyone travelling.
Statements like "we could not guarantee a completely risk-free environment for winter enthusiasts of all ages", are frankly ridiculous - COVID is not going away any time soon so these events will still have an element of risk in 2022 for those who choose to exhibit and/or attend. I suspect the alternate, outdoor event in Denver in Jan will be well patronised.

The event in Denver in Jan is not for the general public. It's only for people who work in the industry. Very different group of people from those who attend the "ski shows." For instance, won't be any children under 12. The Boston and Denver ski shows are marketed heavily to families. Lots of games and give-aways, some specifically geared to children. I've been to the Boston ski show a few times.

Correct that the decision has nothing to do with the current surges in the USA. That's because the states with overwhelmed healthcare systems are dealing with COVID-19 completely differently than Massachusetts or Colorado. However, it has to do with the likelihood of low turnout if indoor masking is required for events happening indoors in a few months. The ski shows are not free. Presumably far fewer people would be interested in spending money for tickets to spend a few hours wandering around a crowded venue.

From the industry standpoint, I can imagine there were vendors who didn't really want to have to travel and/or spend money setting up and staffing a booth for 4 days. With Delta causing ongoing issues, it's also more likely that ski resorts that hoped to attract travelers might figure it's not worth the effort. At least in Boston, there are many resorts that are more than 2 hours driving distance that try to attract people for overnight ski trips.

I'm on a few American ski forums. There is already talk by some naturally cautious people wondering whether or not flying to ski in the Rockies is something they want to do. In particular people who live in the northeast, which is a major market for destination ski resorts in the Rockies.

Vail Resorts recently started requiring indoor masking for everyone at all resorts this week. Meaning vaccinated and unvaccinated employees and "guests" (paying customers). All of the VR destination resorts are 4-season resorts. Seems to be true at Alterra resorts as well. Snowsports folks have noticed.

Bottom line is that everyone is coming to the realization that the upcoming ski season won't be like pre-pandemic days. Probably won't be as constrained as the 2021-22 season, but people are clearly more nervous than a couple months ago. That's in spite of vaccinations being readily available to everyone 12+.

 

[summit_32]

Yeah, i tend to agree. Lots of people are hesitant about travel generally and people at my work recently questioned whether to attend a conference in Vegas (they did go in the end).

Having said that, i still expect most of the Nth American ski resorts to be packed this season. Perhaps its the locals skiing more or people who would typically venture overseas but there's clearly strong demand that is outweighing the folks who have elected to stay home.

 

[MarzNC]

Yeah, i tend to agree. Lots of people are hesitant about travel generally and people at my work recently questioned whether to attend a conference in Vegas (they did go in the end).

Having said that, i still expect most of the Nth American ski resorts to be packed this season. Perhaps its the locals skiing more or people who would typically venture overseas but there's clearly strong demand that is outweighing the folks who have elected to stay home.

Yep, being in DC you are in an area where people are staying fairly up-to-date as the situation evolves. Plus they probably know how to avoid getting infected when they do leave home. Meaning whether that's to go grocery shopping near where they live or to take a vacation somewhere that may be more risky in terms of exposure to people who are contagious with COVID-19.

A good friend in Oregon has a small business. A key employee so far has refused to get vaccinated. The man flew for a family summer vacation, including kids, to Las Vegas and Denver. As somewhat expected, he ended up getting COVID-19. Might have been in Vegas but could just as easily been at home. At least the employee was more than willing to get tested.

Southern Oregon has low vax rates and Percentage Positive over 15% as of early Sep. My friend and his wife had a vacation planned in late August that they ended up cancelling because they figured they would need to be around to pick up the slack during the quarantine period. The two of them were fully vaccinated months ago. Perhaps partially because he's originally from New York City and she's from Southern California. I usually ski with them at Alta in April.

The issue for ski resorts for 2021-22 won't be lack of customers. The issue that is ongoing is the staff shortage. Not only did Vail Resorts raise their miminum pay to $15/hour, so have quite a few other destination resorts. It's been a problem for the 4-season resorts since June 2020 when some regions started re-opening. My home mountain, Massanutten, has been short-staffed in all departments all along. And they have the advantage of being employee-owned and near a decent sized city that has a state university. Nearby Wintergreen depended on J-1 visa staff from S. America pre-pandemic because it's much farther away from a city center. The new GM will have to deal with that issue ASAP.

Apparently the ban on J-1 visas expired in April 2021. But with Delta continuing to spread quickly in North and South America, not sure whether small ski resorts will be able to get staff from S. America or not for the upcoming season.

April 7, 2021 (USA)

Ban expires on international work visas commonly used by ski areas

H2-B and J-1 visas have long been used by local ski areas to hire international employees seasonally. These visas were suspended in June under the Trump administration in an effort to limit immigration and improve...

www.summitdaily.com

August 8, 2021 (USA), ski resort example is Sugarbush in Vermont

Labor shortages expected to continue as employers struggle with visa bureaucracy and Covid

Sugarbush Resort in Vermont is preparing for a busy winter season, but looming over the effort to host hundreds of guests is the need to ramp up hiring -- both domestic and foreign.

www.cnn.com

 

[CarveMan]

Yeah, i tend to agree. Lots of people are hesitant about travel generally and people at my work recently questioned whether to attend a conference in Vegas (they did go in the end).

Having said that, i still expect most of the Nth American ski resorts to be packed this season. Perhaps its the locals skiing more or people who would typically venture overseas but there's clearly strong demand that is outweighing the folks who have elected to stay home.

Last Winter I recall seeing a stat that the USA’s skier days were only 5% off record numbers.

 

[oreo]

Apparently the ban on J-1 visas expired in April 2021. But with Delta continuing to spread quickly in North and South America, not sure whether small ski resorts will be able to get staff from S. America or not for the upcoming season.

There is already a lot of posts happening on facebook groups from J1's looking for housing for this coming winter. I'm sure if they're allowed in, they'll come.

 

[MarzNC]

There is already a lot of posts happening on facebook groups from J1's looking for housing for this coming winter. I'm sure if they're allowed in, they'll come.

Are those mostly for destination resorts in the Rockies?

My comment was about small resorts, mainly in the east because I know more about them. For instance, Wintergreen (129 acres, 1000 ft vert) in Virginia depended a lot on J1 employees pre-pandemic. Very different situation than a resort like Park City or Aspen or Copper.

 

[MarzNC]

Last Winter I recall seeing a stat that the USA’s skier days were only 5% off record numbers.

Yep, there was plenty of pent up demand and people were more than willing to drive to the slopes. Also there were plenty of newbies giving skiing/boarding a try since it felt like a safe way to have fun outdoors. I think a few ski areas in the southeast (NC, VA, WV, TN) set records in spite of capacity limits. Lots of people took advantage of virtual school for kids and WFH for adults to go skiing midweek.

 

[MarzNC]

It finally happened . . . the new name for Squaw/Alpine at Tahoe is Palisades Tahoe.

September 13, 2021 (USA)

Squaw Valley ski resort changes name to 'Palisades Tahoe'

Squaw Valley ski resort officials announced Monday they are changing the name of the world-renowned resort near Truckee to 'Palisades Tahoe' after a year-long process. Officials changed the name to remove the word 'squaw,' which is considered offensive as an ethnic and sexual slur for Indigenous...

mynews4.com

 

[teleroo]

It finally happened . . . the new name for Squaw/Alpine at Tahoe is Palisades Tahoe.

September 13, 2021 (USA)

Squaw Valley ski resort changes name to 'Palisades Tahoe'

Squaw Valley ski resort officials announced Monday they are changing the name of the world-renowned resort near Truckee to 'Palisades Tahoe' after a year-long process. Officials changed the name to remove the word 'squaw,' which is considered offensive as an ethnic and sexual slur for Indigenous...

mynews4.com

I don't know the background to this but these things always seem to work out better when handled proactively. Better for everyone.

 

[MarzNC]

I don't know the background to this but these things always seem to work out better when handled proactively. Better for everyone.

The ski resort now called Palisades Tahoe was founded in 1949. The area was near a tiny unincorporated town called Squaw Valley, so the co-founders just adopted that name. One was a lawyer and WWII veteran from Boston. Back then there wasn't any sensitivity to concerns of tribes who were in N. American long before Europeans showed up. After the 1960 Winter Olympics, the resort was sometimes called Olympic Valley unofficially. Ever since the neighboring resort and former competitor, Alpine Meadows, was bought in 2011, the combined name was unwieldy.

Alterra became the corporate owner in 2018. That would've been a good time to come up with a new name. The Washoe tribe had made their displeasure with the name for quite a while. But it got put on the back burner. Lately the American ski industry is actively working on diversity on the slopes. Once pro football teams started changing their names, it was going to happen sooner or later.

What's likely to happen is that locals will still talk about Alpine Meadows and Olympic Valley. Once the gondola connecting the two is built, that will make a difference in the long run. Right now the only way to get between the two areas is to drive or take a shuttle bus. Both sides are so big, it's pretty impractical to ski both on the same day.

 

[MarzNC]

While Aspen Ski Co. isn't the first to announce that employees will be required to be vaccinated, it's the first destination resort on Ikon. As I'm sure some people who spend time around here know, there were early cases detected in Aspen in March 2020 in the few weeks before the March 15 state-wide shut-down of all ski resorts by order of the Governor. All ski resorts in Colorado managed to stay open during the 2020-21 season with mandatory masking. But there were outbreaks (2 linked cases) and clusters (5 linked cases) at ski resorts all during the season, mostly employees that worked off the slopes. Also cases in the ski towns. Presumably ASC and the town want to do everything possible to avoid a winter surge of any kind.

September 15, 2021

Skico, Aspen hospital issue vaccination mandates

Aspen Valley Hospital and Aspen Skiing Co. are enacting policies that will require their employees to get fully vaccinated ahead of the winter season.

www.aspentimes.com

 

[Sbooker]

While Aspen Ski Co. isn't the first to announce that employees will be required to be vaccinated, it's the first destination resort on Ikon. As I'm sure some people who spend time around here know, there were early cases detected in Aspen in March 2020 in the few weeks before the March 15 state-wide shut-down of all ski resorts by order of the Governor. All ski resorts in Colorado managed to stay open during the 2020-21 season with mandatory masking. But there were outbreaks (2 linked cases) and clusters (5 linked cases) at ski resorts all during the season, mostly employees that worked off the slopes. Also cases in the ski towns. Presumably ASC and the town want to do everything possible to avoid a winter surge of any kind.

September 15, 2021

Skico, Aspen hospital issue vaccination mandates

Aspen Valley Hospital and Aspen Skiing Co. are enacting policies that will require their employees to get fully vaccinated ahead of the winter season.

www.aspentimes.com

I was there in early March 2020. I wasn’t acutely aware of the seriousness of the situation at the time but I remember some intoxicated middle age local ladies on the shuttle back from Highlands one day. They were insistent on giving the Aussies (my wife and myself and another couple) a hug and a kiss because our accent was “so cute”.

 

[sli1]

While Aspen Ski Co. isn't the first to announce that employees will be required to be vaccinated, it's the first destination resort on Ikon. As I'm sure some people who spend time around here know, there were early cases detected in Aspen in March 2020 in the few weeks before the March 15 state-wide shut-down of all ski resorts by order of the Governor. All ski resorts in Colorado managed to stay open during the 2020-21 season with mandatory masking. But there were outbreaks (2 linked cases) and clusters (5 linked cases) at ski resorts all during the season, mostly employees that worked off the slopes. Also cases in the ski towns. Presumably ASC and the town want to do everything possible to avoid a winter surge of any kind.

September 15, 2021

Skico, Aspen hospital issue vaccination mandates

Aspen Valley Hospital and Aspen Skiing Co. are enacting policies that will require their employees to get fully vaccinated ahead of the winter season.

www.aspentimes.com

and you are exempt if you cite religous reasons. Worthless. They hoped people would just read the headline.

 

[MarzNC]

and you are exempt if you cite religous reasons. Worthless. They hoped people would just read the headline.

Not really. Very few people are willing to go to the effort that it takes to get a religious exemption. Not sure, but from what I've heard about other medical situations pre-pandemic the idea is that the person has to be a member of a church that has clear policies (beliefs?) about not following medical recommendations. For instance, Jehovah's Witness folks won't do a full blood transfusion. The medical community knows how to deal with that sort of situation.

The Pope supports vaccination. So Catholics can't claim a religious exemption.

The stats I've seen for colleges that require vaccination for students except for medical or religious exemption are well over 95% vaccinated. I would guess the religious exemptions are no more than half of those who choose routine testing over vaccination.

There are several very large unions in the USA that support mandatory vaccinations. Teacher unions for sure. I can't remember the others. Don't let headlines about small protests against mandatory vaccinations or objections to having to show vaccination status to eat at a restaurant indoors sway you into thinking that the great majority of Americans are against the idea that businesses can require their employees to be vaccinated.

Remember, there was a full ski season in the USA in 2020-21. There were a few instances of issues because people were giving lifties trouble about mandatory masking, but that settled out pretty quickly. One GM closed the ski area over a holiday weekend to make the point that he wouldn't let yahoos verbally abuse his employees. He was clearly mad. The threat was that if someone wouldn't cooperate, they would not only lose their season pass for 2020-21, they would never be able to get a season pass again. There was no more major trouble after that. The GM was fully supported by the majority of the skiers/boarders.

 

[sli1]

Marz, if it is difficult to get a religous exemption then fair enough. AFAIK in Australia, where vaccination has been mandatory for given occupation, there has not been any exemption on religous grounds. Any exemption here would be extensively rorted.

 

[MarzNC]

Marz, if it is difficult to get a religous exemption then fair enough. AFAIK in Australia, where vaccination has been mandatory for given occupation, there has not been any exemption on religous grounds. Any exemption here would be extensively rorted.

My impression is that an American has to be reasonably stubborn to get a religious exemption. Just as it took a lot of nerve to get Conscientious Objector status when the American military had a mandatory draft for young men in the 1960s during the Vietnam War. It was possible, but the process wasn't easy. It was not a new idea for the American military. I remember reading that some Shaker men asked for that status in the 19th century (Christian group founded by a British woman).

Pretty sure medical or religious exemption sfor required vaccines for kids has been available for a long time in the USA. As I said often in 2020, "culture matters." Big differences in the way Americans and Aussies think about a lot of stuff. Just as folks who only ski in the northeast USA think about skiing very differently than those who only ski in the Rockies. They have completely different ski industry histories and snow conditions that shape how they think of skiing.

Here's the legal language for North Carolina K-12 schools. A medical exemption requires a form to be filled out by a physician.