Question What light pattern-base ski touring setup - for distance with some turning too?

snowgum

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Vector bc for touring, Salomon Qst 92 for lift assisted downhill. Scarpa T2 Eco boots. Took the Vector bcs to Myoko in 2019 to work on skills. More work needed. Would love to get back. But a Stirling trip would do atm.
As I have said above, I find the control of the Axl on the down to be worth a little extra weight. I need all the assistance I can get with my sketchy technique. Mrs SG might turn them just fine.
But I am holding on to the SBx2 bindings for now, in case an interesting pair of skis comes up.
Ah Vectors - rings a bell! Cool! How were they in Myoko? Do they grip in real POW or do you need skins much of the climb? Have I’ve read true pow is tricky with scales, Aussie firm (not ice) is much more grippy?

Yes a few others (not all in this forum - ie. Nth Am sites) have notes Switchback X2s have their limits.

The Mrs. does need some help turning - you look at the Voiles shape and rocker and says ‘turn’!

Cheers for your findings CC - here’s to better luck the third time around (2022). The cost of gear per ski day is going through the roof, lately! :rolleyes: :p
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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Been so long for NSW (07) - I’ve cancelled last two years’ bookings at Charlotte (22’?)

Mt P (P Rocks) A nice spot all seasons - I couldn't think of a NSW equivalent - perhaps around the smaller slopes around Charlotte but a lot more treed. The Stirling summit gives a bigger mtn feel, more than its 1750m indicates. (You’ll know of it - a few newer lurkers may not?)

Just as a btw TP: More folks are taking AT and split board gear to MtS. - it can be quite nice for turning on a good day. Like anywhere in Oz. Sept. Corn in a good season is the go. Now I’m selling it again? Apologies. It is my ‘home’ XC hill. Pleasant in summer bar the four wheelers over the summit. :eek::rolleyes:


Re binder - the X2 looks better all round. Will see how we go. Ta for the info. :thumbs::cool:

(I doubt I’d convince Wiffy to get a third boot (NNNBC) but I can see their merits on the groomers & for distance. She only averages ~ a 10 day season.) :confused: Her old Greenland leathers don’t really count - never really comfy but very beefy!

3EC26291-69BE-4546-A50D-AD1FCA3C5FC5.png
I love Mt. Stirling too. The Ski Patrol up there know me by name!.
 
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chriscross

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Ah Vectors - rings a bell! Cool! How were they in Myoko? Do they grip in real POW or do you need skins much of the climb? Have I’ve read true pow is tricky with scales, Aussie firm (not ice) is much more grippy?

Yes a few others (not all in this forum - ie. Nth Am sites) have notes Switchback X2s have their limits.

The Mrs. does need some help turning - you look at the Voiles shape and rocker and says ‘turn’!

Cheers for your findings CC - here’s to better luck the third time around (2022). The cost of gear per ski day is going through the roof, lately! :rolleyes: :p
Hi SG,
Vector bcs were great for me in Myoko but I did not ski deep powder, just light powder on a groomed base or maybe 15 -20cm on base through the trees. I practised tele in afternoons after lessons or resort skiing in the mornings. I used alpine gear on steeper terrain (k2 waybacks) which were light but still good control on blue trails. 7km downhill at Suginohara was fun, a couple of times before lunch. The lead instructor guy at Myoko ski school, wish I could remember his name, was probably the best ski instructor I can recall. Just tuned in to each individual, as opposed to issuing a standard ruling for every skier. Keen to get back but suss about aeroplanes atm. Hope we can all get back into it.
 

snowgum

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Hi SG,
Vector bcs were great for me in Myoko but I did not ski deep powder, just light powder on a groomed base or maybe 15 -20cm on base through the trees. I practised tele in afternoons after lessons or resort skiing in the mornings. I used alpine gear on steeper terrain (k2 waybacks) which were light but still good control on blue trails. 7km downhill at Suginohara was fun, a couple of times before lunch. The lead instructor guy at Myoko ski school, wish I could remember his name, was probably the best ski instructor I can recall. Just tuned in to each individual, as opposed to issuing a standard ruling for every skier. Keen to get back but suss about aeroplanes atm. Hope we can all get back into it.
Sounds great fun - always good to mix the day up - plain yo young can get a bit boring after a few days.

We’ll get back to J. Need to get insurance cover too not just affordable flights and open borders? Short quarantine times in J. And much lower case no’s in Melbourne.
 

Goski

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Sounds great fun - always good to mix the day up - plain yo young can get a bit boring after a few days.

We’ll get back to J. Need to get insurance cover too not just affordable flights and open borders? Short quarantine times in J. And much lower case no’s in Melbourne.
10 days self-quarantine in a home or hotel room is currently required for visitors with approved vaccinations to Japan. That blows planning a ski trip there for me unless it changes to a no-quarantine travel bubble each way. Think the lightish Nordica Steadfast skis I started using this year will be good for a Japan BC setup. The TX Pros are heavy for that but I want to keep it simple and take one pair of boots and skis for both resort and BC adventures. Lighter skins (Contours) are something that I'll consider.
 

snowgum

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10 days self-quarantine in a home or hotel room is currently required for visitors with approved vaccinations to Japan. That blows planning a ski trip there for me unless it changes to a no-quarantine travel bubble each way. Think the lightish Nordica Steadfast skis I started using this year will be good for a Japan BC setup. The TX Pros are heavy for that but I want to keep it simple and take one pair of boots and skis for both resort and BC adventures. Lighter skins (Contours) are something that I'll consider.
Hey Goski, We’ll have to take this to Japan 2022 planning at this rate? :p ;):whistle:
 

telecrag

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I have Tx Pros, I had some Excursions, IMO the weight difference is far less than the performance difference. I gave the Excursions to the Greenshed.

Ill pull out the scales one day and compare some weights for full setups in real time. Though my lightest setup is Synergy/G3/Boundless, but I will only ever ski them in the Brindies for nostalgia.

one thing is for sure

I will never tour my Freerides on Variants.
 
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snowgum

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I have Tx Pros, I had some Excursions, IMO the weight difference is far less than the performance difference. I gave the Excursions to the Greenshed.

Ill pull out the scales one day and compare some weights for full setups in real time. Though my lightest setup is Synergy/G3/Boundless, but I will only ever ski them in the Brindies for nostalgia.

one thing is for sure

I will never tour my Freerides on Variants.

The benefits of Excursions (well in this house) are broader than just weight, although that’s part of the equation. Boot height (range of movement), flex and overall comfort are important and Mrs SG & I both rate the Excursion high marks. Especially with the lightweight thermoformableliner.


Based on some trusty scales, my total ski boot weights inc aftermarket footbeds (size #30) are:
- TX Pro (2.17kg);
- SynerG (2.10); &
- Excursion* (1.57).

So for my clodhoppers, if I can cope with well-known performance limits of the Excursions, they save me around 530g per foot over my SynerG & 560g over the TXP.

Weight and performance can be pretty subjective but given the cost per gram in buying lighter touring gear, I rate a ~ 1.1 kg saving quite substantial. When added to the ROM/comfort/flex points - it gets a good all-round mark if one is mainly touring, and perhaps doing a few bonus turns on the way down.

But having skied the Excursions on lifts in Scotland, they’ll never replace the bigger 3-4 buckle models on days when mostly turning. If you were travelling OS and weight/space was an issue, they’d be a reasonable compromise, without having to resort to hiring. Hiring isn’t always achievable for size #30 tele boots in far flung places, like the Scottish Highlands. however beautiful! ;)
 
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telecrag

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The Excursions were pretty comfortable from memory, though the cuff height has never been a thing for me re comfort. The Synergy's are like ugg boots. Ive gotten so used to my Tx, I can hike for ages in them. If they were lighter it would be great though. Last year I toured (meadow hop style mostly) in the three buckle NTN, slightly lighter/softer than the TX, and they were fine, lacked a little bit of grunt, but like you say, when only doing a few turns it doesn't really matter. Untele was in AT boots, we walked for about three hours to get on the snow. He had the better deal still.
 
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rowdyflat

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I find cuff height an issue when climbing and have physically removed the forward lean on the T4s and do let the T2 ecos off.
I dont find fixed forward lean important when teleing bc.
 
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telecrag

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If I still had my best leather, 3 pin, soft sided ski setup, Id probably have a go of it every few years or so, so much more comfy and light than any other setup Ive ever had.

But I like other things now.
 
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Mister Tee on XC Skis

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Gave away most leather but if anybody thinks the T4 is a wet slipper try your old leather boots = OMG .
I went from Fischer NNN BC X 6 boots to Excursions. I 've never used leather duck bill ski boots. I plan to continue using both.
I would imagine the leather duck bill ski boots would be comfortable but cold and almost useless for proper turns on a decent hill.
 

rowdyflat

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Leather wasnt that comfortable , on trips the boots would get wet through,never dry out even freeze and they were more likely to cause blisters when wet , whereas any plastic boot was a revelation because feet would stay dry .
I recall taking off my leather boots and socks one balmy sunny day, having lunch , putting my feet on the snow and it turned brown from all the muck and toe jam from the moisture.
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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Leather wasnt that comfortable , on trips the boots would get wet through,never dry out even freeze and they were more likely to cause blisters when wet , whereas any plastic boot was a revelation because feet would stay dry .
I recall taking off my leather boots and socks one balmy sunny day, having lunch , putting my feet on the snow and it turned brown from all the muck and toe jam from the moisture.
Precisely why Forum members wisely convinced me to get a pair of Garmont Excursion boots for a 3 pin Telemark BC ski set up with Annum skis and 3 pin cable bindings. The plastic boot stays dry for a whole 3-4-5-6 day ski tour and the inners stay warm, dry and comfy and can be removed and put into your sleeping bag at night in a dry bag when snow camping. As a result you have happy feet and happy skiers.
Fischer NNN BC X 6 boots do get wet and won't/don't dry out too well by day 3 of a solid ski trip.
 

snowgum

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I went from Fischer NNN BC X 6 boots to Excursions. I 've never used leather duck bill ski boots. I plan to continue using both.
I would imagine the leather duck bill ski boots would be comfortable but cold and almost useless for proper turns on a decent hill.
I think of your ski boot journey Tee and it’s gobsmacking that the major boot manufacturers ignored the light touring NTN market. Let’s hope the next 5 years turn this around? Before ‘us oldies’ shift to AT? (We might still shift?) :whistle:
 

pegasusSki

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I went from Fischer NNN BC X 6 boots to Excursions. I 've never used leather duck bill ski boots. I plan to continue using both.
I would imagine the leather duck bill ski boots would be comfortable but cold and almost useless for proper turns on a decent hill.
the leather boots are surprisingly stiff, hence my little anecdote of seeing complete beginners driving Annums with them at Baw Baw.
 

snowgum

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In the UK in ~ 93’, I bought one of the few real, solid tele boots available in London.

A Crispi Telemark or Similar. A well-designed boot, just about half a size too small. Worked with v thin socks and sh

Fairly high, good tongue & lacing, an instep buckle (unfortunately, no top buckle), and a removable rear cuff spoiler that significantly stiffened the boot for downhills, then added flexibility for touring once removed.

Placcy boots (Terminators) had only been a thing for a couple of years but they were well above my pay grade. I liked my old boots - they made Morottos turntable on the Eu glaciers & semi-steeps! But I wouldn’t willingly go back. ;)

A shame that most low-mid cut leathers didn’t use buckles. It would have helped a lot at the margins…:whistle:
 

pegasusSki

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In the UK in ~ 93’, I bought one of the few real, solid tele boots available in London.

A Crispi Telemark or Similar. A well-designed boot, just about half a size too small. Worked with v thin socks and sh

Fairly high, good tongue & lacing, an instep buckle (unfortunately, no top buckle), and a removable rear cuff spoiler that significantly stiffened the boot for downhills, then added flexibility for touring once removed.

Placcy boots (Terminators) had only been a thing for a couple of years but they were well above my pay grade. I liked my old boots - they made Morottos turntable on the Eu glaciers & semi-steeps! But I wouldn’t willingly go back. ;)

A shame that most low-mid cut leathers didn’t use buckles. It would have helped a lot at the margins…:whistle:
you can get Italian? "NATO" military leathers on ebay marketed as "ski march" boots very cheaply.
 
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Telemark Phat

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I think of your ski boot journey Tee and it’s gobsmacking that the major boot manufacturers ignored the light touring NTN market. Let’s hope the next 5 years turn this around? Before ‘us oldies’ shift to AT? (We might still shift?) :whistle:
The small boot niche is really small. The excursion and T3 have already been discontinued. They are largely a relic these days. AT is faster and lighter. Bigger boots Telemark better. NNNBC and the soon to be xplore are faster. They really only fit for overnight heavy touring, without hut support in warm snowpacks.
 

pegasusSki

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The small boot niche is really small. The excursion and T3 have already been discontinued. They are largely a relic these days. AT is faster and lighter. Bigger boots Telemark better. NNNBC and the soon to be xplore are faster. They really only fit for overnight heavy touring, without hut support in warm snowpacks.
interesting as (expensive) AT might be light, but not so comfortable for some feet.
Also, it begs the question - how low are AT boots compared to say an Excursion....haven't given it much thought.

(I need to get out more, I think, in more ways than one...)
 

Telemark Phat

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interesting as (expensive) AT might be light, but not so comfortable for some feet.
Also, it begs the question - how low are AT boots compared to say an Excursion....haven't given it much thought.

(I need to get out more, I think, in more ways than one...)
Depends. The plastic most light AT boots are made from these days can be punched, not so the T4 out excursion. There is so much ROM in modern AT bits the cuff height isn't really an issue. What you lose with AT is the choice to tele.
 
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Fozzie Bear

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interesting as (expensive) AT might be light, but not so comfortable for some feet.

If you can't get a good fit (AT boot) that is also comfortable, you are not trying. A lot of choice plus a good boot fitter. But these things are costly, which appears to be anathema to most telemark skiers, and hence the reason why you have a shitty choice of boots.
 

pegasusSki

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If you can't get a good fit (AT boot) that is also comfortable, you are not trying. A lot of choice plus a good boot fitter. But these things are costly, which appears to be anathema to most telemark skiers, and hence the reason why you have a shitty choice of boots.
sure, I was both time-poor and (once) cash-poor - major obstacle my friend. I have some cramping issues no one can seem to sort. Covid has given me back the time and not the chance.

..some would have sorted in 2 seasons what has taken me 7 years.
 

Fozzie Bear

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If you can't get a good fit (AT boot) that is also comfortable, you are not trying. A lot of choice plus a good boot fitter. But these things are costly, which appears to be anathema to most telemark skiers, and hence the reason why you have a shitty choice of boots.

Apropros lack of decent tele boots; face it, telemarkers are not going to get a decent boot until telemark tech is embraced. This Wildsnow article sets out the issues better than I can:

 

pegasusSki

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Depends. The plastic most light AT boots are made from these days can be punched, not so the T4 out excursion. There is so much ROM in modern AT bits the cuff height isn't really an issue. What you lose with AT is the choice to tele.
you learn something new every day. My AT boots ain't that light nor flexible have to say. Ask me again in 2022.
 
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pegasusSki

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Which boots do you own? The T4 and Excursion really suffer since they haven't changed since their introduction in the late 90s other than sometimes being offered with cookable liners and sometimes not.
old Garmin Radiums. For my next, I need wide last forefoot and lowish volume. Scarpa F1?
The orthotic reduces my wide forefoot. I still think possibly my orthotic has overcorrected me. Like lumps in my arch....
Also looking to get thin ski socks. But no skiing for 2 years now, so haven't tried.
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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old Garmin Radiums. For my next, I need wide last forefoot and lowish volume. Scarpa F1?
The orthotic reduces my wide forefoot. I still think possibly my orthotic has overcorrected me. Like lumps in my arch....
Also looking to get thin ski socks. But no skiing for 2 years now, so haven't tried.
Have you considered having your problem feet amputated and replaced with bionic prosthetics? .
;-P
The new top shelf range have ski boot, hiking boot and wetsuit bootie or flipper attachments for various adventure / outdoors activities.
With Plastic Telemark boots thin long down hill skiing socks are best IMHO . Doug at EMC ski centre will sell you a couple of pairs made of wool and synthetic blend.
 

Telemark Phat

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old Garmin Radiums. For my next, I need wide last forefoot and lowish volume. Scarpa F1?
The orthotic reduces my wide forefoot. I still think possibly my orthotic has overcorrected me. Like lumps in my arch....
Also looking to get thin ski socks. But no skiing for 2 years now, so haven't tried.
A lot has changed since your bit was introduced 15 years ago. I don't follow AT boot fit, but in the Scarpa line a F1 LT is 400g lighter per boot than the Scarpa T4.

In a well fitted ski boot you want as thin a sock as possible.
 

rowdyflat

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Maybe I find T4 s OK because they fit very snugly due a very thin sock and customised cutting away of the liner of any pressure points so it is a tight fit but completely comfortable .
A boot fitter showed me how to cut and remove the synthetic insulation just 1mm matters.
IMO some people buy boots that are too big, boots should be hard to get on IMO.
 

pegasusSki

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A lot has changed since your bit was introduced 15 years ago. I don't follow AT boot fit, but in the Scarpa line a F1 LT is 400g lighter per boot than the Scarpa T4.

In a well fitted ski boot you want as thin a sock as possible.

mate, if you ever hear a scream of delight coming from the Alpine, that is the sound of me delighting and luxuriating in a 40 dollar pair of effing socks...! I confess that for years I used Alpine downhill ski socks bought in Europe ("fun" ski socks, so don't know whether these are legit Mr T) or hiking socks. But Covid put a stop to this experiment.....
 
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Goski

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Is this forum the place for your fetish fantasies?
Can't get a much thinner foot covering for a well fitting boot. Haven't tried it myself for skiing...yet. Pantyhose is also worn by some horseriders of both genders for prevention of chafing. I have tried that myself for a horse ride, got told I needed to also wear long pants over them. Fashion police are everywhere!
 

snowgum

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I think Dostie said he go knee high: ;)



Many who follow Craig Dostie, will be aware that next Gen ‘Lighter NTN boot’ is a popular theme.

In this Video, Dostie discussed and demoed using, yes nylon ‘knee high’ socks to lighten total on-foot weight - after all your body can’t easily distinguish between sock weight and weight.

I think he claims it’s a saving of about 50g per foot. I guess sweaty socks end up even heavier after a day or two? Again, more worry where this heading. All sounding pretty desperate, waiting (weighting?) for the next lightweight NTN miracle Jobbie?

Btw: Two more obvious areas for ski boot weight-savings are:
- leash/clip design - some of the D clamp things (like 22D) are pretty clunky (~ 50g each from memory); and
- Power/booster straps - added to boot or replacing Velcro. The metal buckles on those babies feel quite heavy - I reckon that’s another 50g plus each.

-oh Even the Quiver Killer Inserts must added up - glad I don’t have a Meidjo in that respect!

- maybe try removing one wire if you have two climbing wires (heel).

- For ski/skins - the obvious thing, knocking off heavy frozen sluff of the tops, removing off base (wax?)
And trying kicker skins which are half the weight of most full skins. But clearly have their limits. They’re so small and light - they fit in your jacket pocket or even inside your gaiters.

- Oh and getting a skin with some Mohair, rather 100% nylon and globestop/wax safe to max glide.

Slim pickings I’m afraid!
Plus all the aforementioned wise ski and binder choices? ;):cool::thumbs:
 

Goski

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The flaw in the stocking option is that they would get quite whiffy after a few hours of ardent skiing. A sock will absorb some sweat vs it all going into the liner, which is what will happen wearing nylons.
Taking off a buckle or two will also save weight to be lifted for backcountry. Losing a few kilos on the human component will also pay dividends and that doesn't require waiting for a lighter boot to be made. Similar to cycling. People spend a lot to get a lighter frame vs losing a bit of rider fat.
 

rowdyflat

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As someone who is keen about exercise who is often consulted about fitness and overuse injuries I can agree w Goski ie People spend a lot to get a lighter frame vs losing a bit of rider fat.
1. It is similar w bc skiing we spend 90% of the time climbing and 10% descending so losing some skier fat makes a huge difference.
2. As you get older , contrary to popular belief [ unless you are over 80yo and in a wheelchair} having a house with stairs , which you use many times a day is IMO excellent for climbing and telemarking.
Numbers 1. and 2. have really helped me maintain performance in the last 15 years.
Prior to that I would say it was plastic boots and shaped skis.
 
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