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What's In A Name & On A Map & Pronunciation

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by ecowain, May 12, 2020.

  1. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Just make sure you have the spelling Kosciuszko correct if you want to find it in avenza :)
     
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  2. Chaeron

    Chaeron A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Strzelecki of course had trouble finding the right mountain- following in his footsteps...and his spelling... he wasn’t just bad at speling butt Jography to.

    http://mtkosciuszko.org.au/english/two-mountains.htm

    :evil:
     
  3. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm not sure about the 1:50,000 but the 1:100,000 is spelt Kosciusko. Edit: Just found my 1:50,000 which is also spelt Kosciusko.

    I wonder if this year will see a spike in backcountry rescues and possibly fatalities. A combination of inexperience and, if the resorts aren't open, the absence of nearby resources.
     
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  4. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Then you have this:

    Thus, the height of Mount Kosciusko is given as "about 7300 feet." Various measurements of the peak originally called by that name showed it to be slightly lower than its neighbour, Mount Townsend, and the names were thereupon transposed by the New South Wales Lands Department, so that Mount Kosciusko still remains the highest peak of Australia, and Mount Townsend, given by the Geodetical Survey of Victoria as 7266 feet, ranks as second. Officially the height of Mount Kosciusko is now stated as 7328 feet.

    From a 1909 Yearbook
     
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  5. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Traditionalists tend to prefer the traditional spelling without the Z, as the mountain was known that way for 160+ years

    People who are excited by newish things and who like change for its own sake, prefer the new spelling with the Z.

    So the spelling differs a lot and different maps, books, web sites, etc. will all spell it the way the publisher prefers. However any half decent search engine will have learnt that the two spellings of Koscius(z)ko are synonyms and will direct searches to documents with both spellings.
     
  6. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    True, but that particular map that was referenced, will not be found on avenza using the old spelling. Other maps will.
     
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  7. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not much respect for Polish Australians there @Bogong. Tadeuz Kosciuszko did spell his name with a z. He is a Polish icon. I'd never expect you to be such an elitist to attempt to put down the many Polish Australians who campaigned for a long time to have the spelling of the mountain be consistent with its namesake.

    Are you going to continue to be a traditionalist and spell Jindabyne "Jinderboine" instead? Or even "Kuma" instead of Cooma?
     
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  8. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Wow, that was certainly not my intention. Let me explain.

    Lots of "old world" names have been adopted to name places in Australia. They can be European or even Indian town names like Richmond or the four Melbourne suburbs named after places in Germany (Coburg, Brunswick, Altona and Heidelberg). Of course lots of places in Australia are also named after people with European surnames, like La Trobe and Hotham. These place names have been used for over 200 years in some cases, so it could be said that the names have "gone native" in the sense that there is no longer a link with the places or people they were named after and the pronunciation is also now localised and is often nothing like it would be pronounced in Europe.

    So I reckon that "Kosci" is also a fully Australian place name with negligible links in most peoples minds with its European origin. Therefore if it is an overwhelmingly Australian name and that place has its own culture and traditions, then that name should be retained and preserved rather than altered at the whim of city based bureaucrats who have no connection with the location that they propose to rename.

    Now of course people have every right to disagree with my preference to spell Kosciusko without a Z, but if they do so because they believe the old world origin of the name should be honoured in precedence to its Australian culture and traditions, then perhaps they should pronounce places like Koscius(z)ko and hundreds or other locations named after European places and people in the correct European way rather than the distinctly different Australian pronunciation.

    Does that explain my position without making me biased against Poles, Germans, English or Swiss people?
     
  9. mholling

    mholling One of Us

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    I think that can be a valid sentiment, but surely not in this case? The Polish origins are fairly blatant. I didn't see the old version as a nativisation so much as a spelling mistake. I learnt how distinctive our pronunciation is after a Polish friend told me how I "butchered that name!" I think that's a sufficient localisation.

    How do people feel about dual-naming for Koscuiszko?

    oops, thread drift
     
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  10. PAW

    PAW Hard Yards Ski Pass: Silver

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    It's Kosciuszko, and Strzelecki knew it.
    Back to the topic: don't forget adequate hydration. It's hard to keep the fluids up when it's cold. And the climbing is sweaty work. Start the day well-hydrated and make sure you keep up the fluid intake.
     
  11. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Its pretty elitist to maintain that your idea of what "Australian is should take precedence over any one elses. Hang out with some Polish Australians, I bet Kosciuszko means more to them than it does to you.
     
  12. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Kosciusko is pronounced Kozzi-us-ko
    Kosciuszko is pronounced something like Koz-shoosh-ko

    Isn't this fun?
     
  13. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm quite happy for the three of you to disagree with me, as long as you understand how I came to my view on the subject. But you might be disrespecting Australian culture a lot more than you imply that I'm disrespecting Polish culture.

    What threw me was a slight implication that I didn't like Poles or respect their culture. I've spent some time in Poland and have even spent a few days in Zakopane, a ski resort south of Krakow in the Tatra Mountains. I also walked along the narrow ridge that is the border with Slovakia and climbed Swinica, a high, precipitous peak that was presumably named because it is a swine to climb.

    So I like Poland and Polish people, I just reckon that our Mt Kosciusko's connection with them is very tenuous, especially when that slight Polish connection is compared with the huge amount of Australian history, tradition, legend and lore that has grown up around our Mt Kosciusko. Therefore I reckon that respecting our own local Australian culture is more important to an Australian mountain than an often forgotten and now far distant European connection. :)
     
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  14. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Wot about Umeralla?
     
  15. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Or Nimmitibelle?
     
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  16. Interruptedbyfireworks

    Interruptedbyfireworks One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Adaminnabee?

    This is fun
     
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  17. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Shirley Izz!

    How about Belle-Connen?
     
  18. nfip

    nfip Cold n' Rusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Molly-mook.
    I just had to.
    now back to topic.
     
  19. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Noone's mentioned farkin penriff mate.
     
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  20. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    It actually makes sense with ow it’s pronounced.
     
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  21. nfip

    nfip Cold n' Rusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Saint Mary's close enuff ???
     
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  22. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Every single local in that town pronounces it with the old spelling.
     
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  23. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Naa mate. I've not met a single pole anywhere in the world who didn't ask me about Kosciuszko once he found out I was Australian. Aussie Poles have annual festivals and celebrate Mass ontop of Kosci on the anniversary of Streleszki's summit of Kosci each year. You should celebrate these connections rather than dissmissining them like an elite colonialist. You should do some learning rathwer than remainining so ignorantly elitist.
     
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  24. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Okay, now I know you're not trying to have a polite discussion, rather you're just trying to troll or provoke me. :fishing:

    If nothing else, my posts on this forum have demonstrated that I'm passionately for a fair go and an equal chance for all, so words like that seem mainly chosen to trigger me.

    But I won't be triggered and respond to your insults with insults of my own. Rather I'll just refer you to my two previous posts, which if they are combined, are a fair representation of my thoughts. They are reproduced below.
     
  25. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Oh dear. I’d only meant to indicate that a certain spelling would or wouldn’t find a map in the Avenza online store.

    Not trigger an argument.
     
  26. Chaeron

    Chaeron A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Maybe a Mod can split off the name discussion/ clean up the thread....this is a really great intro to BC thread and would be nice to have it as such. I plead guilty to the initial derail...

    The name discussion IS an interesting one...
     
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  27. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    it also makes it sound quite lovely :)