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Where / How to start again?

Discussion in 'Charlotte Pass' started by Nidecker, Sep 16, 2010.

  1. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Asked in another thread, but think this deserves its own thread. This is bigger than just ski school.

    Now that the owner has chosen to make a change in the management, how quickly can he get some experience back in the resort.

    How do you replace all the "old heads" now missing from the staff at the resort?

    How do you replace that sort of experience?

    I'm thinking in terms of training / management of lifties / ski patrol.

    Mountain management? Who is there with the experience to know where to put up snow fences at the start of the season, or where to make snow early on? Who is maintaining the infrastructure at the resort?

    I can't imagine in the ski industry that there are a lot of consultants you could call on to train up people in these areas, and each resort would have it's own little nuances that different staff would have learned over may years / and varied season conditions.

    In another industry you might poach from your competitors, and certainly running the Chalet should be a no brainer for anyone with hospitality experience, (as should areas of the resort itself) but much of the rest of the operation is specialised, grooming almost a "black art"

    How could the resort be restored quickly to it's former state?

    Do you go cap in hand to Perisher or Thredbo and ask for help?
     
  2. wangster

    wangster A Local

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    How many long term Charlottes staff left during the "dark times"?

    If they still have enough key staff employed then any effective manager should be able to come in and get things headed in the right direction again.
     
  3. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    That is the problem, from what I understand, all the key staff have gone. Some of the knowledge at ski resorts is built up over decades, and passed on. For example unusual weather events are remembered, recorded and planned for.
     
    #3 Nidecker, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  4. wangster

    wangster A Local

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    If that's the case I'd imagine that they need a big shift in philosophy to make Charlottes an attractive place to work.

    For example despite the beautiful location you still have to live in crap staff accomm (from what I've been told anyway), and if the state of the cats is anything to go by, a little investment in new equipment and infrastructure would help make the average work day less stressful for the staff, not to mention better for the guest.

    I would love to get my hands on that place with a view of "you've got to spend money to make money". I think there's a real opportunity to make Charlottes an extremely unique, boutique ski resort that could drag people away from the majors with its charm, service and location.

    Aah to dream
     
  5. BigWaveDave

    BigWaveDave Hard Yards

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    IS CP privately owned? Are the lodges under lease or owned privately? Is the entire lift/ski school operation owned/run by the same people or is it farmed out to contractors? Who runs the oversnow/shuttles etc?


    For some reason I thought CP was part of / came under Perishers control/management, but obviously not.
     
  6. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    All privately owned by the same company / person
     
    #6 Nidecker, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  7. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thats what I reckon too!!
     
    #7 Nidecker, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  8. toxicfox

    toxicfox Hard Yards

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    This has been the subject of many after dinner discussions for at least the past 20 years. Some have gone further than others in the past and failed. My partner refers to CP as 'the Afganistan of ski resorts'. as in many have tried and failed to conquer. I had a look at Rick Walkom's book again last night, and it was around 1979 when Len Markham realised that a capital injection was needed and an upgrade to infrastructure. This is when lodge sites were advertised on placemats at The Chalet and many people formed groups and built lodges- on sub-leases to CPV Pty.Ltd. These leases are up for renewal in about 2 years. I will state now that I am not a 'Lenny Fan' but he was a skier. I did like Gillo, firm but fair. He invented the phrase NCO (next cat out). Jamie would have lasted 5 seconds. CPV will never be another Perisher or Thredbo. It should play on its uniqueness, history and location. There is so much more to add to this topic, and deserves some thought. Great topic though. Lets all try to be as constructive as possible.
    A final thought. It is a SKI RESORT. Hill, Lifts, Grooming, Ski School, Transport, and well trained Staff.
     
    #8 toxicfox, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  9. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    And that is why we go there... [​IMG]

    I suggested in another thread, that I don't really think they know their market at CP. ie: they might think they are good at marketing, BUT have they done any market research? Are they selling their product to day trippers or multi day pax? Are their customers families or young singles or old couples?

    What is the breakup of skiers vs boarders vs teleskiers? Should they bother with a terrain park at all?

    I would bet $ that in the past, the only users of man made terrain areas at CP have been staff at the resort. That includes ski patrol and lodge staff.
    There is nothing wrong with the small fun terrain for the kids, but lets not waste groomers time on the large stuff.

    What attracts us all to the resort?

    One of the things that has gotta change is the customer service/professionalism.

    EG: One of the guys in the ski rental place said to me, that he was training to be a snowboard instructor, but get this, he believed he could teach in his first year without qualifications. He thought he would only need to get them after his second year. Thats NOT professional.

    What could the resort offer that would make the place more appealing but wouldn't require a lot of investment.
    for eg:
    Would some, perhaps a large % of the older users of the resort pop into the chalet for tea & scones of an afternoon? Not in the hideous new coffee shop, but maybe the upstairs area at the chalet?

    Do the packages encourage people to buy them? I have several times stayed at our lodge with people who didn't buy 5/7 day packages cause they didn't fit with the days they were there. They said they would just buy day tix, then when the weather was bad they didn't buy tix at all. So the resort missed out on serious income.

    What sort of value add could they offer/sell cross country skiers?

    I don't know, but I reckon they should go with a major rethink on everything.
     
    #9 Nidecker, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  10. Ian

    Ian Addicted Ski Pass: Gold

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    The NSW Labor Government... (OK, you've had your laugh, pay attention to the next bit)

    [​IMG]
    (Who needs Lara...)

    ...is pushing its national parks as destinations for international tourism. I understand the Hon. Member for Rockdale's legislation was recently passed to remove restrictions on development that may attract overseas visitors.

    Now CP is not Banff...

    [​IMG]

    ...but the Chalet isn't too bad, and it wouldn't take too much to polish it up a bit, maybe a bit of retro, back when pink diamonds were fashionable...

    [​IMG]

    I'd be more than happy to say a few "Konnichiwa"s and "Neehow"s if it would bring in a few extra Yen and Yuan to CP village. Could you imagine the fun the one-child Chinese kids would have with whole resort full of feral lodge rats during the 4:30pm snowball fight! And the opportunities for romance for all those wealthy young Chinese blokes who haven't a hope in hell of getting married over there for reasons we're too polite to mention on a family friendly forum.

    I can just see myself tucking into a Minke burger with my 'Bullocks' at the Chalet lunchtime 'cultural experience' BBQ.

    [​IMG]

    Now, I think everyone would say that CP's "Treat 'em mean and keep 'em keen" marketing push hasn't been particularly successful in attracting the crowds...

    [​IMG]

    ...but with a few simple changes, the new owners could be raking in some much needed foreign exchange to keep our beloved CP open for the forseeable future.

    I'm on record as one of its biggest fans. I'm a cash cow, come back every year, bring the family. All I need is to actually get there, a cold beer, a smile from the staff, the kids entertain themselves. Then I go back to work, tell everyone how great Charlottes Pass was and book my weeks leave for next year.

    I don't always tell them the snowcam picture hasn't changed since yesterday...
     
    #10 Ian, Sep 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2013
  11. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Nice post [​IMG]

    They need to think outside the box!
     
    #11 Nidecker, Sep 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2013
  12. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Guys seriously CP is the resort i am most interested in and ive never been there, it could potentially be an amazing place. Im sure there are plenty of skiers who feel the same, CP is a goldmine for the ski industry in AUS, they need to tap it right.
     
  13. ODNT

    ODNT Part of the Furniture

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    Agree with wangster, they have too much of the same product marketed at the NSW resorts, I would spend and make it into a boutique resort. Revamp with taste, quality cafes, eateries, and revamp accomodation to 4 star minimum, and I dare say it I would make it sought after by making it for skiers only like Deer Valley USA. Everyone complains except for the corporates who pack it out year after year.
     
  14. andy222009

    andy222009 Hard Yards

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    so maybe all of us get together and do it.......
     
  15. rocketboy

    rocketboy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    4 star at CP - forget it. The skiing is simply not good enough. It's a family resort and a back country resort.

    Be it 2 star or 4 star - the Chalet needs to have a gym, a spa, a sauna, a complete makeover - either retro or contemporary.

    The prices for the Chalet are plain stupid and need to include lunch and house wine with dinner.

    I've stay at the Chalet many times, but I have never paid full freight - always felt sorry for those who have and kept my mouth shut as to what I've paid.

    At full price I would be seriously pissed off at the crappy lift operations, the delays to oversnow, the long wait for dinner and the overpriced cocktails and wine list.

    But as I do it on the cheap and go with kids who I can leave to themselves for much of the time I put up with the crappy lifts.

    But this year was the limit. Gutheries was just an insult, long queues, idiot daytripper snowboarders falling off repeatedly, umpteen lift failures, crappy grooming.

    The opening and closing times on lifts is also ridiculous. The chair should open at 7.30 and close at 4.45 once the daylight gets longer.

    The packages are also a waste of money, and way to restrictive on days in and out on oversnow. I just won't buy packages anymore for myself. For the kids yes as they do ski school and you have to a ticket for the ski lesson period. Which is another thing they could look at.

    The approach to mid week has to change as well. oversnow should be included in any ski ticket - day trippers get a great deal and all to often bring nothing to the resort except packs of snowboarders with attitude.

    Everything is aimed at extracting the most money from the customers - whether you get good service/value or not.

    I still like going there and will probably go again in 2011 and 2012 - but as the kids get older, the other resorts in Australia and NZ become more attractive.

    But I hope that the operational problems are seriously addressed, that Gutheries is upgraded, and the ticket packages are made more attractive for mid week visits.

    The only real solution is that the other lodges need to either buy out CPV Ltd or become the major shareholder via a holding company that the other lodges own.

    This would enable the whole approach to the resort to be restructured as a partnership between the various stakeholders on a more even level.

    It's very important that the situation is fixed up as there are plenty of people in the NP who would happily shut a ski resort down. And the current situation is just asking for trouble.
     
  16. ODNT

    ODNT Part of the Furniture

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    Corporates & look at me's arent looking for the steepest slope, they just dont like mixing it with others and they want to be seen as they are special enough that they can afford to go where others cant ,the fact that its run down its a great opportunity to buy as a bargain for someone that has vision. Wasnt someone saying they need to think outside the circle. If i was the competition I would want it to continue the way its going.
     
  17. rocketboy

    rocketboy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    if you want to make a small fortune out of a ski resort - you better start with a large fortune
     
  18. crackson

    crackson A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Top thread.
    Almost applied for the caretaker position.
    Saved by thread.
     
  19. ODNT

    ODNT Part of the Furniture

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    I agree
     
  20. knowidea

    knowidea First Runs

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    Nideker, obviously you have no teaching experience whatsoever, To gain the APSI Entry Level qualification, skiers and boarders need to attain certain standards in teaching, demonstrating and free skiing/riding before being hired at any resort worldwide.

    http://ski-snowboard-training.educatingadventures.com/internships-ski-snowboarding.html

    FAQ
    Do I need to pass the Level One Exam before starting work?


    No. It is not a requirement that you pass the level one certification prior to starting work. As you have been through a structured training program your resort will still employ you. When allocating work,employers will give you tasks or assignments that best match your skills, experience and qualifications - so you won’t be asked to teach a high level powder lesson if you’re not ready to do so!

    Before teaching a class of skiers/boarders, first time instructors must go through training/teaching programs held by the resort (hiring clinics) to see if they have the knowledge and experience riding/skiing to then put into teaching a class, plus then having police checks to make sure no criminal records are shown. So stop crapping on about what you clearly have no idea about.
     
    #20 knowidea, Sep 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2013
  21. knowidea

    knowidea First Runs

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    Does any one ever stop...take a step back...and think maybe I am in the wrong.
    If a lifty is getting angry at you it probably is for good reason.
    If a lift is on wind hold, maybe that its a good thing. If a lift wasnt put on wind hold, all of you would be whinging about how dangerous it is. Take a look around people, it is one of australias most beautiful places and all you can do is whine 24/7
     
  22. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    You might be posting in the wrong thread. If you want to defend the quality and attitude of the staff at CP, you should be in the thread, "never ski the pass again". On a personal note, sorry if I offended you regarding the instructor thing, it just struck me as a bit odd.
    No I haven't taught or coached for some 15 years, you might be surprised at my quals though [​IMG]
    No big deal we all love CP, just looking for CONSTRUCTIVE ways to make it a better place.
     
    #22 Nidecker, Sep 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2013
  23. rowdyflat

    rowdyflat One of Us

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    Mister Noidea I have been skiing for 30 years all over including CP last 8 years believe me all the criticism is justified so stop playing devils advocate.
     
  24. toxicfox

    toxicfox Hard Yards

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    hmmm. i have some ideas about no ideas. Exit end of ski season 1. enter staff finally managed to get access to write something, or 2. hi Jamie . If you truly believe this resort has been run well and for the clients who pay to 'ski', say so or add some ideas to how it could be.

    Dangerous is leaving most of your machinery & equipment littered all over your designated ski runs and where skiers enter lift lines and dangerous is not marking obstacles on the mountain. So it cant be safety? In a chat to ski school director on the slopes this season he apologised for both of the above and hoped we would get a better quality of staff & staff training & customer experience next year. We all want this.
     
    #24 toxicfox, Sep 20, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  25. knowidea

    knowidea First Runs

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    #25 knowidea, Sep 20, 2010
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  26. oreo

    oreo One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm not sure that actually helps mitigate their complaints/arguments. It just mentions the normal procedures at resorts, that natural objects are generally only padded/protected against in special circumstances and that man-made objects such as snow making machinery etc should either be removed or padded, shielded, screened etc.

    Now I haven't been to CP this year, so I'm not to say if this happened or not, but I don't see your argument.
     
  27. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old n' Crusty

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    Humble pie and an apology from the owners & management would be a very good start.
     
    Sago likes this.
  28. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    You might not want to spend too much time in a service industry stubbornly adhering to your legal rights, at the expense of the hard to define, but easy to spot good customer service. :)

    Same goes for teaching....

    "do all obstacles need to be marked on a ski hill" No, but common sense should dictate that best practice is similar to that which is offered in other resorts,
     
    #28 Nidecker, Sep 20, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  29. knowidea

    knowidea First Runs

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    My point is that you cant please everyone all of the time, but at CPV you cant seem to please anyone any of the time, I agree with what most people are saying here, Jamie is an idiot with no managerial skills whatsoever, and tends to think that the customer is always wrong and the way he treated staff was downright discusting but now that he is gone we can all start to see a brighter future for CPV, but on the other hand, how many of you have actually worked at a ski resort, or a CPV??? Many of you take your frustrations out on the staff that work there, when alot of what goes on is not their fault: e.g rules and regs, mechanical faults, WEATHER, bus delays ect ect. If a plane at an airport is delayed due to weather or mechanical faults do you all go and scream at the staff and blame them too?
     
  30. toxicfox

    toxicfox Hard Yards

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    Yes, frustrated. People on the thread are current or former staff. Some with 30-40 yrs experience at CP. The past two years were the worst I've seen, including when Mainline went bust overnight and and guests had to cook for and look after themselves at The Chalet (that made for a fun week). You cannot be so dismissive of Lodge guests either, as most have been there 30 years or more, (and many have worked there as Ski Patrol, Doctors, Lifties), years more than any of the current CPV PtyLtd staff.
    If you don't pay your bills you can't buy mattracks to keep the machines running, you need a proper maintenance schedule to keep lifts running and you need staff trained by experienced managers to operate them - safely in all weather conditions. If you get rid of all the knowledge .....you get this past season.
    Can we get back on topic now.
     
  31. rowdyflat

    rowdyflat One of Us

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    Well I have worked as a doctor at Hotham Med Centre + Buffalo.
    Possibly will apply for 2 weeks at CP now there is national registration.
     
  32. crackson

    crackson A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    i wouldnt mind automating for them if they were serious..
     
  33. skipat1

    skipat1 First Runs

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    Out myself now as former staff - probably get flamed now...been reading some of these forums with wry amusement over 2 years. Probably first & last post. Longish. Skied at CPV worked at CPV - lifts, mountain, hotel & office. Endured Cellblock & The Boulevard. Skied & boarded in most Aust resorts, NZ, Thredbo & Perisher and USA & Canada.

    CPV gotta love it. The one bar heater in the freezing tin shed that was the Perisher Terminal when we were kids was met with no complaints. More a sense of adventure. CPV workers & skiers like the rustic charms & low level chaos & have seen plenty of it. But the thrill has gone. Dont mean some hankering for nostalgia but for the basic on regard for the hill, customers, workers, lodge managers & mountain staff.

    The moment that best sums up CPV 2010 for me was riding the chair with former patroller colleague : watch this he said : decks not shovelled, that woman will slide off onto wooden deck and get skis caught ( ok a mid 40s woman beginner but doesnt need the liftie to roll her eyes and refuse assistance either as she flounders). Next seat will slam into their calfs - tick - the bar will hit as it comes around as snow level too high on platform - tick - the safety bar will crash down on those peoples heads - tick - the footrest will scrape the mid station as not shovelled - tick - those beginners will pile up on those witches hats on the down ramp - tick - and ski into the 18"snow drift left ungroomed on exit area at top of the chair. (Then the run wasnt groomed, the groomer being now an expensive ski obstacle down the hill). Oops dont worry about next run, its on wind hold.

    Skied CPV alot since a kid & seasons working - seen alot of WEATHER here and OS - rain, floods, gales (seen these lifts running and worked on them safely in much windier conditions at CPV & did alot of shovelling to make sure they were). We kept guests informed - then they dont complain. Ideas that could perhaps be revived: Some of those hands in CPV are Jindabyne locals with vast & extensive knowledge. Speak to them. Some of those 'grumpy old managers' have been around since 1970s and seen every thing the weather can dish up ask them. Guests at Village this year have kids skiing for Australia so not just gumbys. The office used to ring to inform the lodges if a lift would be slow opening in the morning : this goes a long way to making people feel less like chumps & valued. If some one had a serious accident their ticket would often be refunded & they were not charged for changing transport booking to leave the villager to get medical attention. It customer service that builds long term loyalty. Its not flash its basic. If you dont want to work in a service industry dont work in the snow.

    CPV had the situation this year where the resort manager abused the clients. That manager was promoted by some one who thought he could do the job despite many misgivings from other staff from previous year (A good coach doesnt make his worse player captain as a guest said). New customers more expensive to attract than existing - a basic rule of business. Retain & expand not treat as whinging "hate to see change" enemy. The office rang when transports were late. In 1981 we had guests arriving overnight as the snow conditions made running cats impossible during the day. Most people were fine and not abusive as knew the drivers would be doing their best. The cats werent broken down just delayed - a big difference. No one used the hill as a carpark. Smoking ban is great. The new cafe looks like a generic highway servo - you had to use on your way down. Bright shiny and cold looking - lacks the styling & branding that could differeniate it for day trippers. Personal taste. Beginners carpet great - Len should have had one a decade ago so kudos to management there.

    Its not about fear of change anyone skiing on old style 200+cm carvers who now snowboards isnt afraid of change. Ski resorts are about variable weather & you prepare for it. No point trying to pull the safety card when so it suits and not being consistent. As for the PDF - i quote it: "from an operational perspective, and desirable from a skier perspective, to reduce the hazard presented by most man made structures or obstacles. Examples of such include lift towers, snowmaking pipes and machinery, small buildings, light and power poles. The methods and materials described in this paper can be used to reduce potential for debilitating injuries or skier death".

    adieu
     
  34. shrimp

    shrimp Hard Yards

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    After following two seasons posts on the the declining fortunes of an old friend and the ever increasing inepitude of those charged with its well being, I feel a sense of frustration and anger. Frustration that it could come to this and anger that it did.

    What were you thinking? and whatever it was please stop.
     
  35. maps

    maps Hard Yards

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    Almost every problem seems to be related to treating customers with contempt, change that so customer experience comes first and the rest is easy.

    Example, snow report from Monday

    "Resort Report: Monday 20-09-10

    Well our final day of the season at Charlotte Pass Ski Resort is drawing to a close and what a day it has been!!

    Mother Nature definitely saved the best until last with beautiful blue skies and sunshine- It doesn’t get much better than that!

    Today 4 lifts were on the spin getting riders up the mountain so they could cruise down the softening cover and make some nice tracks down our standout runs…

    Easy Starter for the beginners
    Intermediates had exhibition
    Sidewinder gave advance riders one last challenge."

    Snow cam from Monday - they weren't open at all.

    http://ski.com.au/snowcams/australia/nsw/charlottepass/charlotte1.html

    I guess that sums up how much the left hand knew what the right hand was doing.

    Looking forward to next year, I think a change in management can make positive changes quite quickly and easily.
     
    #35 maps, Sep 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2013
  36. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    No one will flame you for this, you're just telling it how it is. Sad as that may be.
     
    #36 Nidecker, Sep 22, 2010
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  37. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    This sort of thing was just so obvious this year, but it seemed all the management / staff / ski patrol were just not experienced enough, or well enough trained to even notice it.

    One liftie at the bottom of the T-Bar looked at me strangely when I "borrowed" his shovel to replace some snow cover over a rock that had appeared at the bottom of the rut that is created by skiers turning around the bull-wheel. I shouldn't have been surprised, they didn't even have a load area prepared at the T-Bar, no orange cones, no "stand here" strip, the poor liftie had to chase people around all day when loading them.
     
    #37 Nidecker, Sep 22, 2010
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  38. solmanic

    solmanic First Runs

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    As one of the long time regular customers who "fear change" - I have to ask. In the 21st century, how is it that the Kosciusko Road from Perisher is not snow cleared during the winter season? It seems to me that Charlotte Pass' achilles heel has and always will be it's limited access. Whilst I recognise this is also one of its biggest appealling features, it generally has the ability to cause untold difficulties to guests and management alike. If people can't get in on time (like what happend... well pretty much all season), then they start their holiday in a bad mood. The condition of the access road is the main reason the oversnows kept breaking down.

    In Europe & North America snow clearing in areas that have 2-3m of base is routine. Is it that cost prohibitive that they can't try it here? Or has NPWS simply determined that it can't happen in case a pygmy possum gets squished?

    Reliable access means more guests, more day guests, easier re-stocking for lodges, easier access for other maintenance and easier access for emergency services. Surely the first step to improving the return on a resort is to make it easier for people to get there. It's a great hill.
     
  39. rodw

    rodw Hard Yards

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    Considering NPWS in NSW normal policy in all nat parks is to close any road for vechile access if possible...the fact they dont clear the snow is not surprising TBH......but then again NPWS have never been big on customer service....Ive always felt they just see the park as a cash cow as they have a captured clientel.
     
  40. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I wonder if there is a bit of "Oh it doesn't look so nice" from Perishers point of view?
     
    #40 Nidecker, Sep 23, 2010
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  41. maps

    maps Hard Yards

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    Do they ever do any grooming on the road? I don't know anything about what is possible to be done, but I would have thought a bit of effort would make a better guest experience (smoother, less travel time) and less damage to the vehicles.
     
  42. toxicfox

    toxicfox Hard Yards

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    CPV looked at clearing the road many years back. The NPWS wouldn't allow it then as the place was categorised as 'snowbound' in winter. A feature I like BTW. But does throw up logistical issues. remember when the snow was patchy and 4wd's drove to Spencers Creek then you swapped into the buses or bombadiers for the cross country track. Even with the transport change it ran better/quicker. As posted earlier you still need to leave a lane with snow for Skidoos and emergency vehicles. Is there an RTA issue that prevents the buses being used? Lack of seatbelts maybe. Changing to lighter vehicles would also let you go back to the cross country pole line from Spencers to the village. Or we could go back a real long way and CPV could supply us with touring skis and sleds and we could walk in with our supplies and clothes for the week. The NPWS would love it.
    I would like to see CPV, Perisher, NPWS and RTA all get together and find a better solution to all as none want a repeat of this years troubles.
    On a where/how to start again, how about packages better suited to Lodges (70-80% of CPV's market) Getting the 8th day free is useless if the transports are blocked out for Day Trippers, why not a 6 from 7 lift package no matter when you arrive, like every other resort in the world I have skied at.
     
  43. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Whoa radical! [​IMG]
     
    #43 Nidecker, Sep 23, 2010
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  44. rodw

    rodw Hard Yards

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    How a about a gondola from thredbo road to CPV...Im sure that will work lol....seriously though your dealing with NPWS and they dont change anything if it involves work.

    But looking at the POM (2006) for the park (page 54) this bit says its an rta issue....
    http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/nature/KNPPOM.pdf

    "The Service is responsible for the management of the roads in this zone except for the Alpine Way, Kosciuszko
    Road and Snowy Mountains Highway, all of which are managed by the Roads and Traffic Authority, and
    subsidiary roads managed by lessees."

    And this on page 192 should mean they would be willing to look into better access.....


    "Participate with DoP in the development of an Integrated Access Strategy for the alpine resort management
    units in association with the Roads and Traffic Authority (RTA), resort operators and local government. The
    strategy will aim to encourage an efficient transport and access system to the alpine resorts and within each
    resort management unit."

    However this bit about an review in 2015 dosnt bode well......

    "Any activity which involves the ongoing provision of visitor facilities and services in the Charlotte Pass
    Management Unit beyond 2015 will not be permitted unless the Director General is satisfied:
    • That the continued provision of visitor facilities and services is in accordance with the provisions of this
    plan; and
    • The existing lessee:
    - Can demonstrate at least three years of improvements in environmental performance based on the
    results of the environmental audit and environmental management system established for the resort
    management unit;
    - Has prepared and implemented a rehabilitation plan for specific areas within the resort management unit
    according to Service requirements;
    - Contributes to the recovery program for Burramys parvus (mountain pygmy-possum) in accordance
    with the Recovery Plan;
    - Contributes to ongoing research and rehabilitation programs in the resort management unit; and
    - Has prepared and implemented a plan for the use of the resort during non-winter months that is
    consistent with proposed strategies to manage visitation to the Main Range Management Unit
    (Section 9.2)."

    In a nut shell I read it as they dont like the resort being there in the first place, so unlikely to get any love from NPWS
     
    #44 rodw, Sep 23, 2010
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  45. toxicfox

    toxicfox Hard Yards

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    In a nut shell I read it as they dont like the resort being there in the first place, so unlikely to get any love from NPWS [/quote]

    I don't think CP is alone there. Despite the resort existing prior to NPWS or State Parks you still have to work with them. CP does not have a large multi national or Kerry Packer behind it (despite what kevin thinks LOL) to fight that type of bureaucracy. 2015, I thought the lease was up sooner than that, but it gives a few more years to turn things around and get it right. Funny how all those thought to be extinct Pigmy Possums turned up. All you had to do was look, and there everywhere now. The foxes have gone now.
    W/HTSA? How about "Spring Skiing Specials" especially in good years, like this season. Cheaper tickets, on snow activities, Ice bar. May take time to build it up though. October long weekend was always when I went to CP with just my dad and mates. Cold nights, t-shirt days
     
  46. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    The road is not Parks' to deal with, it is the RTA's, as a consequence of the post-Thredbo landslide Walker Inquiry. You might have to ask if CP wants it groomed. Grooming aint free. It is none of PB's business.

    rodw - The POM stuff is bog standard for almost any activity of an ongoing commercial nature in a park and like most DECCW licences; they expect ongoing and documented progression and improvement on environmental fronts. I think many would consider that reasonable for a National Park. I do.
     
  47. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    But really, what would be the difference in cost between running one bog standard grader, and using bog standard buses vs the situation now? It don't snow that much in Aus. you could even pop blades on the front of the buses. :)
     
    #47 Nidecker, Sep 23, 2010
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  48. toxicfox

    toxicfox Hard Yards

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    I don't like the idea of the going up or down the driveway into the village in a bus, on some ice or snow. The village still needs to be snowbound at some point. The current situation needs improving. New machines or better road preparation maybe.
    WHTSA? Improved communication. The office could call lodges in the mornings when lifts were likely to be on wind hold or when to expect your transport, delayed or not. That used to happen.
    And from knowideas handbook, natural obstacles that have a high likely hood or history of causing accidents should be marked. Like the rocks at the entrance to baby poma and T-bar. If not for knowideas then the beginners who don't know these rocks or ability to avoid them.
     
  49. rodw

    rodw Hard Yards

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    Climberman - I'll admit I'm very anti NPWS red tape but I still see the POM as a loaded gun that can be used when needed. The NPWS is very much a Govt run institution and all you need is for the next head pen pusher who wants to make a name for himself come in and use it to further his own gain......I'm not saying they will but if it written in the POM it can be used very easily as they have done in other POM/parks in the past.

    They mention things like being at Spencer creek headwater, the famously close to extinction possum that lives in the bowl (which must not mind CPV village to much as it had decades to move out) and the "classic" light and noise pollution to the main range (wtf????)

    Charlottes pass is not alone, as they mirror the concerns expressed for PB but unlike PB CPV doesn't have the power or money to fight NPWS who like all Govt departments love wasting tax payer dollars on litigation. My main concern is the document really paints a picture that the skiing in the park is a negative aspect to the park should be curtailed which would make any changes at CPV very hard to get through with this POM in place.

    My solution really to fix the transport issue would be to grade the road to the driveway (which is RTA domain) and have private buses run on it to a turn around for pick up by cats from driveway (i.e. like falls creek , but without the rip off costs)...that would have to be the most cost effective solution and also make it more efficient to get supplies in and waste out of the place?
     
  50. solmanic

    solmanic First Runs

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    When leaving the resort on Saturday 11th September CPV had a groomer stationed at the top of the driveway to run up and down the road periodically. The one-way trip from CP to Perisher was only 20min and nice and smooth. This was at least a half-decent attempt to address the problem caused by having only one functioning oversnow.

    Last year I had a conversation with one of the drivers who explained that they had cut back on grooming in general and therefore were either unable to groom the road, or unable to groom the whole mountain. Due to the reduction in regular grooming of the road the oversnows regularly threw their tracks.

    If simple grooming of the road on our exit day could have such a dramatic effect on transport reliability and timing, then it beggars belief that CPV didn't see this as a priority. With limited grooming equipment and staff, there are areas of the mountain that can survive un-groomed.

    Yes, the snowbound nature of CP is a major part of its appeal. And yes, any proposal to fully snow clear the Kosciusko Road would not tick NPWS environmental improvements box. But as has been discussed here and elsewhere else, income from ski resorts funds all of NPWS activities in the whole state. They need the resorts as much as we want to be allowed to keep skiing there.
     
    #50 solmanic, Sep 24, 2010
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