Wholebody 2018- Simplified course...

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by bawbawbel, Mar 16, 2018.

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  1. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Any skier who can link a turn is using preinclination. Otherwise, why link a turn, if rotation transfer is deliberately avoided, as the pugski footskiers usually insist ?
    It is now more subtle than in the days of checking and up unweighting, but it remains effortlessly effective.
    It has been ignored in my wholebody whints until now, as more skiers than just beginners get preinclination mixed up with their preturning.
     
  2. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum
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    Noooooooooooo
     
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  3. Tanuki

    Tanuki A Local
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    :D
     
  4. Tanuki

    Tanuki A Local
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    :deadhorse:. :wave:
     
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  5. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    I am glad I got through tough yough that looking at a single turn in isolation from the previous turn is a futile procedure.
    Even to the extent that is ho hum.
    To help beginners, start us off by listing three ways that this interaction can take place.
    Forums die when they consist mainly of one liners and selfies. :emoji_trumpet:
     
  6. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker
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    But when in transition does post meld into pre?
    Surely fluidity is that and cannot be sectioned!
     
  7. W0nkey D0nkey

    W0nkey D0nkey One of Us
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  8. Normo

    Normo Mostly Harmless
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    I’m only here for the one-liners and selfies!
    Is there more on offer? :)
     
  9. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter
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    If you want to get pre turn and pre inclination to be a part of your song copy this ladies excellent technique
     
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  10. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker
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    Needed a T- stop and gnome stab.
     
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  11. absentskier

    absentskier Old n' Crusty
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    Mate I feel for you. Obviously you have a passion for this. Unfortunately, however, your writing is virtually indecipherable which means it is very difficult for you to convey your message clearly and concisely. And repeating the same thing over and over seemingly does not assist.

    Best of luck though. I’m sure you’ve got a loyal readership hanging on every word.:thumbs:
     
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  12. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    I have on good authority that constant repetition is the key to understanding.
    You were probably not reading hard enough ?

    Thursday
    Parents of Seth Rich sue Fox over claim son killed for leaking emails The Times of Israel 12:53 Thu, 15 Mar
    Seth Rich parents slap Fox News with lawsuit over withdrawn conspiracy reports Hot Air (Weblog) 11:15 Thu, 15 Mar
    Seth Rich's Parents Sue Fox News Over Baseless Story NPR 08:11 Thu, 15 Mar
    'Intense distress': Lawsuit from Seth Rich's parents details trauma from Fox News hatchet job The Washington Post
    Parents of Seth Rich sue Fox News over publishing 'fiction' The Independent 04:54 Thu, 15 Mar
    Seth Rich lawsuit: Fox News sued over WikiLeaks-DNC claims RT 03:50 Thu, 15 Mar
    Seth Rich parents sue Fox News and say network used death as 'political football' The Guardian 03:09 Thu, 15 Mar
    Fox News sued by family of slain DNC staffer over retracted reporting The Washington Times 02:58 Thu, 15 Mar
    Fox News and Alex Jones Are Being Sued for Conspiracy Mongering New York Magazine 02:50 Thu, 15 Mar
    Sam Nunberg says he warned Roger Stone about associating with WikiLeaks founder CNN 02:41 Thu, 15 Mar
    Nunberg Told Mueller That Roger Stone Met With Assange The Forward 02:31 Thu, 15 Mar
    Parents of murdered Democratic staffer Seth Rich sue Fox News Los Angeles Times 02:30 Thu, 15 Mar
    Seth Rich Family Suing Fox News Adweek 01:12 Thu, 15 Mar
    Fox News sued by family of slain DNC staffer over conspiracy theory story Cleveland.com 01:09 Thu, 15 Mar
    Sam Nunberg warned Roger Stone not to associate with WikiLeaks The Washington Times 00:40 Thu, 15 Mar
    Parents of Seth Rich Sue Fox News Over Retracted Story Connecting Son to WikiLeaks Law & Crime 00:32 Thu, 15 Mar
    Seth Rich’s family sues Fox News over retracted story on his murder The Daily Dot 00:09 Thu, 15 Mar
     
  13. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    At the very end of the turn and BEFORE transition, or it cannot enhance transition, and because it relies on movement rather than position. Only a lead from upper body is possible at that point.
    As everybody can now mambo, we can safely move on to inclination mechanics.
    From my other thread, boffins explained how nobody's legs are strong enough to create turns.
    The SLOPE creates the turn, providing the skier has his feet in the right place and orientation.
    Let us discuss how this can be achieved and enhanced, once the above is universally accepted :)
    P.S. It is nice to move on to inclination, after I had deliberately avoided it for yonks for the sake of simplicity..
     
  14. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    To help beginners, we will start us off by listing three ways that old/new turn interaction can make inclination.

    As universally accepted, they are:
    1. Pressure release of the decambered skis. When assisted by an up unweight, establishing the new opposite inclination can even then take place in the air.
    2. Delayed transition. The old turn continues under the body until the new inclination is achieved.
    3. A vertical version of our stopped anticipation using the old inside arm. Deep snow stuff.
    Mix and match as required.
     
  15. KL.

    KL. One of Us

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    just 3, don't like any of those 3 ways and they are essentially all transition not pretransition
     
  16. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Pondering your post. True in the case of number three, except with mee.
    I have not mentioned tipping and tilting and falling down the hill, as they are not a product of the previous turn.
     
  17. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    While KL and I argue semantics, y'all should read important observations which have been DELETED because the do not fit current dogma. Check the crossover movement while you are crossing under.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20160428104145/http://www.youcanski.com:80/en/coaching/incline-to-win.htm
    "Many juniors still ski in static, “locked” position, using excessive hip angulation. More often than not the “locked” position is unintentionally created by coaches trying to correct the “leaning in” problem by asking racers to work on more level shoulders."
     
  18. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
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    However, if you repeat something that is virtually indecipherable, the brain of the "learner" will not learn it. (Thank goodness!)
    reader will not read it

    If the reader needs to "reading it hard enough" when they read it, then the reader will not read it.
    If the reader will not read it, then the reader will not learn it, or the reader will not want to learn it. :doh:
     
  19. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    I realize the difficulty of introducing a new concept with "modern" readers who need a "take away" in the first 4 seconds or 4 lines, or you have lost them. And that impression must appeal to at least one of the most basic instincts.
    Prestige, power, knowledge, sex, greed, money, altruism, or in our case, total mastery of a physical skill.
    This will lead to "hard reading", a deliberate effort to reread and follow references to achieve gratification.
    For instance "Check the crossover movement when you are crossing under" should lead either to an insatiable desire of the improver to understand it , or a curse from the uninterested.
    The improver then reads:

    "Projection
    Projection is the movement of the center of mass (CM) in the direction of the future turn. This movement is clearly demonstrated by Maier (photo 3) in the transition between the red and the blue gate. Racer’s upper body and hips are projecting forward, over the skis while skis are moving under the body. It could also be described as a cross-over movement, with the racer’s CM crossing over the skis, while skis are crossing under the body - a cross-under."

    and realizes that the most physical of the old racers ("legs like oak trees") used Ligeti anticipation.
     
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  20. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    But he actually had to use it to complete his signature turn, the step (or step up ) turn.
    He would get a higher position at the next gate without giving away any speed. How?
    Instead of finishing his previous turn as the course dictated, he would keep a steeper line, angle his new outside ski and step up onto it, using upper body rotation to start the new turn.
    The "step up" part was a killer, as it had to be done against 3 g's.
    We were told to learn it by making every turn a step turn, no fun at all.
    Compare to the ease of us lot now (BBB Club), making every turn an anticipation turn.
     
  21. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Ansentskier, the above post is a hard read. Is it clear enough, even if you are not interested? Maybe illustrations are the answer.
    The site offered as an example of clarity, http://earthjp.com/ , offers paydirt in the first 4 lines (save money), but it fails the hard reader by not leading to actual figures about savings in a typical application. Invent one, nobody will contradict.
     
  22. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    I have requested an illustration of the Maier turn, but it is not yet forthcome. Have to do it myself, as the little red hen proclaimed.
    We should be maintaining momentum by considering two things at once, even if Bender could not cope .
    Thing 2 - Powder Turns.
    Jetting to Japan is now common, so powder is more and more a skill to be mastered.
    Assuming that one is a "good" skier in OZ conditions, herewith good guts for a conversion course.

    "When you finish the turn, raise the arm for the next pole-plant and then extend the stance from feet-up. So that your head goes towards that pole-hand."

    The earlier the better, so skis have less need to help change inclination for the next turn. Remember that there are two effects here.
    1. Raising the pole early tilts shoulders towards the new inclination.
    2. Vertical rotation is transfered when the arm stops, rather than as it accelerates upward.
     
  23. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum
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    I think this is a description of Max Walker's bowling action.
     
  24. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Dan Egan ("snap your hips to your hands! ") would always ski like this in freestyle powder.
    No sandpaper needed to make his skis turn.....:):)
     
  25. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    "Gravity Drop" skiers cannot turn like this without losing speed or balance or both.

    Pic worth tousand words.
    Surely better than trying to visualize "Cross Over while you are Crossing Under" ?
     
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  26. MisterMxyzptlk

    MisterMxyzptlk Old n' Crusty

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    This is either the World's longest running piss take or evidence of psychosis
     
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  27. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Some ski to live, we live to ski.
    Only if we don't have enough money left to eat could it be called an aberration ?
     
  28. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Evidence everywhere of moribund reactions to advanced concepts. I was shocked to hear that "nobody can understand how a pedal hop can work." Blinkers abound. :)
     
  29. Tonester

    Tonester One of Us
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    Thank god. I thought it was just me. Sorry @bawbawbel, but your posts are indeed difficult to decipher. And I do try and read your them. Really, I do!
     
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  30. Kletterer

    Kletterer Still looking for doughnuts
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    BBB You may be entering a second phase order of a Quantum Phase Transition .
     
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  31. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Like most people, I like to think that I am progressing to an understanding of human perception that will make my statements obviously crystal clear, accepted as profound truths, and remembered forever. Most importantly, they must engender an insatiable desire to act them out. :)
    I am thinking to emulate Donald Trump, proclaimed as THE Master Persuader by none other than Scott Adams (drawer of Dilbert), who has a deep understanding regarding hypnotism of humans.
    Read these tweet style tips at your own risk !

    "Turns are generated by your feet". Sad !! And Misleading !!

    "Edging needs Angulation" . Cart Before Horse !!

    "Keep shoulders horizontal at all times" No ! Only for milliseconds at a time !

    There you go. Burnt into yr brain .
     
  32. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    So, have you religiously followed my course, or are you still skiing like a robot?
    http://video.ajc.com/Watch-These-Robots-Try-to-Ski-in-South-Korea-33537757
    Actually, I have a little robot (a highly modified B1, actually) , who skis quite well on my ten dollar incline trainer.
    (It went to the tip because a computer fault made it smoke and run at full speed at random intervals).
    But he has spring loaded shoulders, not like these foot steerers :)
     
  33. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    I am concerned that there is a noticeable lack of enthusiasm for our modern method.
    A good indicator of how well it has been accepted is to see the numbers of monoskiers on the slopes.
    States Skiers can never monoski and enjoy it.
    They flail in frustration at transition and won't hire one again.
    Look and Turn, Look and Turn. Monoskiing for beginners herewith:
     
  34. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    To enjoy the monoski one must have mastered the infinity move and the bel anticipation. No tipping or gravity dropping can work, so it is the ultimate test of technique.
     
  35. Tonester

    Tonester One of Us
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    So WTF is the "infinity move" and "the bel anticipation"??
     
  36. Tonester

    Tonester One of Us
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    And also, what is "gravity dropping"??
     
  37. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer
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    You really shouldn't be asking.
     
  38. Tonester

    Tonester One of Us
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    I know....
     
  39. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
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    The "infinity move" is when you post seeming sense when it's not, and obscuring the meaning with language that is impossible to understand, spawning infinite return posts.
    "the bel anticipation" is the expectation and anticipation that this will happen.
     
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  40. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer
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    Pretty much sums up tens of thousands of hours of lost productivity in the Australian economy.
     
  41. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    They are terms to describe the most effective techniques for turning of skis on snow. Skiers no longer need to turn. All recreational skiing is now basically performed in a straight line, no turns are then needed, except for rotations when in the air. They seem to prefer it that way.
    Snowboarders, on the other hand, seem to be now showing an interest in turning. That is maybe why they are so kool ?
    They used to come straight down the fall line, just pointing their boards in different directions on the way.
     
  42. Tonester

    Tonester One of Us
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    That so didn't answer my question.
     
  43. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Casual enquiry, easy.
    Bel Anticipation : Advanced upper body rotation transfer which then includes beginners snowplough progression and oldies knee protection, as well as the secret of racewinning racers.
    Infinity Move: Moving feet relative to C of G so they are always correct for effortless cross through skiing.

    After getting both instinctive there is nowhere to go except to embrace the single edge.
    A good turn on a board should not produce a roaring noise, note. :)
     
  44. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    So don't go to google if that is too much trouble, Bob Barnes for beginners:
    Nothing to it, but spend forever getting it just right. You probably don't want my treatise on SCAREM style ? (Stomach Controlled Active Retraction Extension Movement ) ?
     
  45. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Attached Files:

  46. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    "Yep, I do that all the time"
    Maybe not.
    I am repeating myself here, against my policy, but this important detail has no doubt been lost in past posts.
    " Expert skiing continuously involves activation of muscles in the trunk. Intermediate skiers were found not to invoke them at all."
    Quite separate from our anticipation moves , this figure eight track is claimed by Bob to be the basis of ALL expert turns.
    The necessary fore and aft movement of the feet relative to the trunk MUST involve those muscles.
    You accelerate your skis and the hill then pushes them back.
    No ?
     
  47. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    Bob found one instructor at Vail using Whole Body for fun.
    This is not a prescribed drill.
    In fact, I forbid you from trying it. Those who did still regret it decades later.
     
  48. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    I will put aside writing my 10 volume opus magnum "A Short History Of Skiing" to fully address this complaint.
    Unlike some who have complicated this incredibly straightforward concept (preturn upper body, stop, wait for rotation transfer to lower body ) in order to mystify their commercial version, I have simplified it's teaching until 5 year olds quickly get and use it.
    Epicski locked the "waiststeering" thread after 24 pages of increasing hostility. I would have given up here long before that, even if my survival has depended on Ozzie tolerance. Or by ignoring my thread.
    It only survives on the Wayback Machine, which I fear will soon be destroyed by the Ministry Of Truth, which now OWNS the Internet.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20170501005542/http://www.epicski.com/t/28471/waisteering-revisited/720
    Note that somebody immediately posted "Isn't this just counter and anticipation?", and instead of just agreeing and following up with explanation of the difference between position and rotation, the proponent proceeds to invoke Thai Chi and states both that "This is a new concept !" and "All top racers use this !"
    Read the Epic thread and pick the response which most mirrors your own understanding, pls.
     
  49. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    I look to see if "waiststeering" has experienced the badly needed simplification from the Thai Chi of 12 years ago.
    Sure enough, the impossible "turning of the waist without simultaneously turning the shoulders" has gorn.
    We have a Chubby Checker twist: "This is SEPARATION of the upper body."
    And then a coiling movement (upper and then lower body rotate in the same direction) : "This is COORDINATION of the upper and lower body."
    Is that a useful comparison for clarity ?
    Well, OK for starters, but mention of the vital timing of the movement (before transition), and the need to immediately STOP the movement is not mentioned, although this 2015 waiststeering youtube shows that sort of occurring in the dated example.
     
    #49 bawbawbel, Apr 29, 2018
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  50. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel One of Us
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    For some reason, probably because weighting the new outside ski is less effective, a shoulder anticipation is often the preferred way to begin the next turn on artificial surfaces.
    Note that this group are doing more than "facing the upper body downhill".