Question Why is Glen Innes so cold??

Snowmaker7

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Glen Innes yesterday morning recorded the coldest temp so far this year in Australia with a low of -12.3C, surpassing any temp recorded in the Snowy Mountains in 2019. Why is it so cold? Topography? Elevation? Location of AWS? Seems crazy that a place at a reasonably low elevation of 1100m ish that far north is recording such bone chilling temps. Keen to hear anyone's input!

https://www.weatherzone.com.au/news/australias-coldest-of-the-year-so-far/529963
 

Greysrigging

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The Airport site is located in a notorious 'frost hollow' and has recorded much colder absolute minimums than the old Post Office site. So quite the opposite of say Armidale where the Airport is somewhat warmer ( winter nights ) than in the town valley.
July 2002 Airport...8th -12.8c, 9th -10.0c, 12th -10.9c, 13th -10.3c, 26th -10.6c
July 2002 P O....... 8th -6.9c, 9th -4.6c, 12th -5.4c, 13th -5.6c, 26th -5.4c
July 2002 min average @ Post Office....-1.3c
July 2002 min average @ Airport...........-5.7c !
 

Seabreezes

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Woolbrook (NSW) has a record low of -14.5°C
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_055136_All.shtml (Temperature records, 1970-present)
It's a village in a valley halfway between Walcha and Bendemeer, and located barely off the Oxley Highway (the Macdonald River flows through the village). The elevation of the weather station there is 925 metres. Technically it's within the North West Slopes & Plains forecast district, but otherwise most, if not all, people would consider it a part of the Northern Tablelands / New England.
 

Greysrigging

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Woolbrook (NSW) has a record low of -14.5°C
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_055136_All.shtml (Temperature records, 1970-present)
It's a village in a valley halfway between Walcha and Bendemeer, and located barely off the Oxley Highway (the Macdonald River flows through the village). The elevation of the weather station there is 925 metres. Technically it's within the North West Slopes & Plains forecast district, but otherwise most, if not all, people would consider it a part of the Northern Tablelands / New England.
And check out the July 1970 mean minimum temps....-6.6c and 8 nights sub -10c !
Wonder how a snow gun machine would go in the village ?
 
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skifree

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Glen Innes yesterday morning recorded the coldest temp so far this year in Australia with a low of -12.3C, surpassing any temp recorded in the Snowy Mountains in 2019. Why is it so cold? Topography? Elevation? Location of AWS? Seems crazy that a place at a reasonably low elevation of 1100m ish that far north is recording such bone chilling temps. Keen to hear anyone's input!

https://www.weatherzone.com.au/news/australias-coldest-of-the-year-so-far/529963
1100M is not low in Oz, is it?

I regard Jindy at 950 to 1000 depending on the street as highish.

What are stats for the altitude of Oz towns?
 

Wavey

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There's not many towns higher than 1100m. I think Cabramurra (~1500m), Guyra (~1300), Ebor (~1300), Black Springs (~1200), Sunny Corner (~1200) and Oberon (~1100) are the only sizeable towns above that. Then Armidale at about 1000m is the highest city in Australia.

As for the topography of the Glen Innes Ap area, it appears to be quite a wide, flat area with the AWS being at one of the lower points. About 1km to the west though, the land is about 30m lower than the station so it could get even colder in the lowest creeks around the Airport. A wide, mostly flat valley or gently undulating land seems to be the key for extreme cold nights. These properties are what Glen Innes Ap, Goulburn Ap and Cooma Ap all have in common. I think if the land is too hilly, it counters extreme cold because of wind flows due to temperature differences between the top of the hills and the valleys. Whereas the gently undulating land would be similarly cold in the lowest and highest parts, allowing it to be calmer.
 

Greysrigging

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The small town of Ebor ( Pub and a Post Office ) is about 80k east of Armidale and is at 1350m ASL. Not seen it personally, but the Ebor Falls sometimes freeze.... be quite a sight I imagine !
I have seen heavy snow on the ground there ( June 1977 ) and its not far from the Round Mountain ( 1586m ASL )
Ebor and The Snowy Ranges, of which the Round Mountain is the highest point, do OK out of winter ECL's. Ebor has a rainfall of about 1300mm, and does see a bit of winter snow.
 

MarkGC

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As a uni student I travelled through Ebor many times, it was the fastest way from Armidale to the North Coast, looked at the road to the falls several times, never actually went for a look. Still think I could drive that road blindfolded.
 

Legs Akimbo

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As a uni student I travelled through Ebor many times, it was the fastest way from Armidale to the North Coast, looked at the road to the falls several times, never actually went for a look. Still think I could drive that road blindfolded.
Not a bad little dribble. This is the upper falls. There is also lower falls

 

Snow Blowey

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As a uni student I travelled through Ebor many times, it was the fastest way from Armidale to the North Coast, looked at the road to the falls several times, never actually went for a look. Still think I could drive that road blindfolded.


From memory its less than 500m from the Waterfall way?

You can get in under the lower falls and stay dry.
 
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There's not many towns higher than 1100m. I think Cabramurra (~1500m), Guyra (~1300), Ebor (~1300), Black Springs (~1200), Sunny Corner (~1200) and Oberon (~1100) are the only sizeable towns above that. Then Armidale at about 1000m is the highest city in Australia.

As for the topography of the Glen Innes Ap area, it appears to be quite a wide, flat area with the AWS being at one of the lower points. About 1km to the west though, the land is about 30m lower than the station so it could get even colder in the lowest creeks around the Airport. A wide, mostly flat valley or gently undulating land seems to be the key for extreme cold nights. These properties are what Glen Innes Ap, Goulburn Ap and Cooma Ap all have in common. I think if the land is too hilly, it counters extreme cold because of wind flows due to temperature differences between the top of the hills and the valleys. Whereas the gently undulating land would be similarly cold in the lowest and highest parts, allowing it to be calmer.
Ben Lomond (N. Tablelands) is higher than any of those—straddling 1,400-1,450 m AMSL.

Also, Cabramurra is hardly a "town". If we were to count localities as well, then Braemar Bay and Buckenderra around here also climb upwards to about 1,350-1,400 m (towering to 1,471 m AMSL at Mt. Cobrabald); however, much colder and snowier than Ebor, Shooters Hill, etc. Rhine Falls is also another high locality (1,320 m AMSL).

The Northern Tablelands are the highest on average, then the Southern and Central Tablelands; however, the Southern Tablelands are by far the coldest and snowiest—if you count my region and the upper South West Slopes (e.g. Laurel Hill) as S. Tablelands, that is.
 

Greysrigging

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Ben Lomond (N. Tablelands) is higher than any of those—straddling 1,400-1,450 m AMSL.

Also, Cabramurra is hardly a "town". If we were to count localities as well, then Braemar Bay and Buckenderra around here also climb upwards to about 1,350-1,400 m (towering to 1,471 m AMSL at Mt. Cobrabald); however, much colder and snowier than Ebor, Shooters Hill, etc. Rhine Falls is also another high locality (1,320 m AMSL).

The Northern Tablelands are the highest on average, then the Southern and Central Tablelands; however, the Southern Tablelands are by far the coldest and snowiest—if you count my region and the upper South West Slopes (e.g. Laurel Hill) as S. Tablelands, that is.
Ben Lomand.... yeah forgot about that one.... in town at 1370m asl and some higher hills nearby. And in the Moonbi Ranges there is Niangala at around the 1300m asl mark. Niangala also does well out of winter ECL's.
 

Belly

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1 February 2019 ebor falls, the town was sweet relief after the temps we copped inland!!
DSC_3819.JPG
 

Greysrigging

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So in summary a town in Oz above 1000M is actually high.
Oh you would say so although a bit more common on the Northern and Central Tablelands where there is a huge land mass above 1000m.....good rainfall ( summer bias on the Northern Tablelands ) and not so harsh a climate as upland areas on the Southern Tablelands and indeed in Victoria, where latitude as well as altitude plays a role in habitability. Suss out the climate of say Aberfeldy ( 1060m ) and Matlock ( 1150 ) in the Victorian mountains.
 
Oh you would say so although a bit more common on the Northern and Central Tablelands where there is a huge land mass above 1000m.....good rainfall ( summer bias on the Northern Tablelands ) and not so harsh a climate as upland areas on the Southern Tablelands and indeed in Victoria, where latitude as well as altitude plays a role in habitability. Suss out the climate of say Aberfeldy ( 1060m ) and Matlock ( 1150 ) in the Victorian mountains.
Indeed; latitude tends to be sorely underestimated in terms of climate, as most folks only take altitude into account. Kunama, for e.g. gets much heavier snowfall than Oberon, despite lying ~100 m lower in elevation; there is quite a drastic difference between 33°-34° S and 35°-36° S. Don't even get me started on Laurel Hill and Nurenmerenmong in that regard—these regions absolutely thrash anywhere in the C. Tablelands for cold and snow.
 
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Greysrigging

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Indeed; latitude tends to be sorely underestimated in terms of climate, as most folks only take altitude into account. Kunama, for e.g. gets much heavier snowfall than Oberon, despite lying ~100 m lower in elevation; there is quite a drastic difference between 33°-34° S and 35°-36° S. Don't even get me started on Laurel Hill and Nurenmerenmong in that regard—these regions absolutely thrash anywhere in the C. Tablelands for cold and snow.
And precipitation ! I guess those Southern Tablelands towns get upwards of 1000mm or more ? And is there a winter rainfall bias ? How do you go on the Eastern side of the Great Divide compared to the Western Slopes ? Cooma and the Monaro always looks dryish to the uninformed ( me )
The Northern Tablelands get a summer rainfall bias, meaning I guess, clearer cloudless nights in the winter months therefore conducive to frosts... hence the Glen Innes extremes. And Cooma, if in a rain shadow, is probably similar ?
Without looking at stats, the high country in the Central Tablelands is a bit dryer, and sometimes the cold westerly changes don't have a lot of moisture. The high country to the East, say Bowral and Robertson, whilst much lower altitude, sometimes do ok snow wise out of winter ECL's
 

climberman

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Ben Lomond (N. Tablelands) is higher than any of those—straddling 1,400-1,450 m AMSL.

Also, Cabramurra is hardly a "town". If we were to count localities as well, then Braemar Bay and Buckenderra around here also climb upwards to about 1,350-1,400 m (towering to 1,471 m AMSL at Mt. Cobrabald); however, much colder and snowier than Ebor, Shooters Hill, etc. Rhine Falls is also another high locality (1,320 m AMSL).

The Northern Tablelands are the highest on average, then the Southern and Central Tablelands; however, the Southern Tablelands are by far the coldest and snowiest—if you count my region and the upper South West Slopes (e.g. Laurel Hill) as S. Tablelands, that is.
Braemar is just a caravan park! Can’t see it being above 1350. Houses at the western end of Happy Jacks Rd at Euc Cove are ~1240m asl and are higher up than the cara park at Braemar.
 
And precipitation ! I guess those Southern Tablelands towns get upwards of 1000mm or more ? And is there a winter rainfall bias ? How do you go on the Eastern side of the Great Divide compared to the Western Slopes ? Cooma and the Monaro always looks dryish to the uninformed ( me )
The Northern Tablelands get a summer rainfall bias, meaning I guess, clearer cloudless nights in the winter months therefore conducive to frosts... hence the Glen Innes extremes. And Cooma, if in a rain shadow, is probably similar ?
Without looking at stats, the high country in the Central Tablelands is a bit dryer, and sometimes the cold westerly changes don't have a lot of moisture. The high country to the East, say Bowral and Robertson, whilst much lower altitude, sometimes do ok snow wise out of winter ECL's
I most certainly get a winter-spring precipitation bias here; my summer-autumn is dry and stormy (dry thunder), whilst my winter-spring is wet and snowy (although not as wet as the upper SW Slopes)—very different climate to Cooma out here. Rather than being east of the ranges, I'm right on the ranges, in fact. Refer to maps of Anglers Reach and surrounds, and you can see that I'm pretty much directly astride the Great Dividing Range, parallel to Tantangara from north-to-south.

3rd-party climate data for 1,185 m AMSL (lower shores of Lake Eucumbene):

TvT7ksk.jpg
 
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skifree

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The BOM conveniently got rid of the AWS at Charlotte Pass so we will never again see a temp below -20c. They should have kept one there purely to keep record going.
Now why did BOM do that? Just silly penny pinching to pay for more CRAYs or a real reason?
 
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Now why did BOM do that? Just silly penny pinching to pay for more CRAYs or a real reason?
BOM's official reason: "lack of manual observers." Charlotte Pass was a manual site, but that most certainly does not excuse them for blatantly refusing to re-establish an AWS station at Charlotte Pass, when they spend so much $$$ on other AWS sites.
 
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skifree

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Political???

There musta been a reason, and I doubt it was cos any political body said “no you cannot have a weather station here cos it’s against (insert political giant like Hawke or Menzies here) and they don’t think it’s cool.”

Or am i fool who thinks BOM is independent of politics?
 

skifree

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BOM's official reason: "lack of manual observers." Charlotte Pass was a manual site, but that most certainly does not excuse them for blatantly refusing to re-establish an AWS station at Charlotte Pass, when they spend so much $$$ on other AWS sites.
Sorry saw your post after i did mine. :thumbs:
 
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skifree

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BOM's official reason: "lack of manual observers." Charlotte Pass was a manual site, but that most certainly does not excuse them for blatantly refusing to re-establish an AWS station at Charlotte Pass, when they spend so much $$$ on other AWS sites.
Cheap skates.
 
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Greysrigging

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From memory, BOM funding for remote site AWS usually comes from 3rd party sources... a la the ones in far western NSW ( near the SA border ) that recorded those record or near record overnight mins back in January....
 
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Flowin

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Every town needs it's five minutes of fame to attract tourists, and Glen Innes has nothing else going for it.
I totally disagree that Glen Innes has nothing else going for it.
I always like passing through GI. One of the few towns in Australia that still has more than 70% of its original architecture intact. Most other towns have hacked up their origins with “redevelopment” and some towns have redeveloped in a really destructive way.
The history values of Glen Innes are worth preserving and encouraging others to appreciate this New England town.
 

Seabreezes

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From memory, BOM funding for remote site AWS usually comes from 3rd party sources... a la the ones in far western NSW ( near the SA border ) that recorded those record or near record overnight mins back in January....
The funding for those new weather stations ($2.5 million) and also three new soon-to-be Doppler weather radars ($25 million) in Western NSW came from the NSW Government (Liberal-National coalition) as a part of its Drought Strategy.
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/climate-and-emergencies/droughthub/research-and-development
 
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qwill

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I totally disagree that Glen Innes has nothing else going for it.
I always like passing through GI. One of the few towns in Australia that still has more than 70% of its original architecture intact. Most other towns have hacked up their origins with “redevelopment” and some towns have redeveloped in a really destructive way.
The history values of Glen Innes are worth preserving and encouraging others to appreciate this New England town.
Chill, not every post in this place is serious, not even in the hallowed threads of weather. I too have spent a lot of time in and through Glen, nice town just wouldn't want live there.
 

Flowin

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Chill, not every post in this place is serious, not even in the hallowed threads of weather. I too have spent a lot of time in and through Glen, nice town just wouldn't want live there.
All good no worries. Just sayin tis a nice town. Too cold for me though to live there:)
 
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