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Why Whole Body = Q & A

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by bawbawbel, May 27, 2017.

?

Have you mastered the Level One White Out Turn?

Poll closed Jan 19, 2019.
  1. Tried and Satisfied. Ready for Level Two, please.

    40.0%
  2. Tried and Nearly Died. Not recommended.

    20.0%
  3. Sort of interested.

    10.0%
  4. Please stop trifling with my technique !

    30.0%
  5. Get Thee Hence !

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    No worries about Mr T. I heard that he only does careful sideslipping while his chainsaw is running..
     
  2. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Is there truth in the rumour he is using ski heels as wedges for difficult trees?That Norwegian Technique is only to be used with soft woods!:thumbs:
     
  3. KL.

    KL. One of Us

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    it would appear in these pics that the outside chest/shoulder forward/ready position has been reached/established in frames 7/8, 25/26 which appears to be quite/fairly early during initiation.

    is this how you ski?
     
  4. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    This is all in fun, but I am deadly serious about chainsaw safety. Your saw is like a lightsabre !
    My tele course now includes and mandates the use of these boots. Bellows a bit stiff.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Maybe it is not possible to reach that position any earlier (halfway through the turn) because our arms and shoulders are turning WITH the skis up to that point (windup). Then comes BIG rotation. (exaggerate,exaggerate ). .
    It is a compulsory exercise to get something more effective than a slide transition into the top of the turn. Otherwise the body crossing arm movement on the inside of the turn, which powered the wedeln, is just neglected in longer turns.
    As by sexygirl on the previous page. Even with stiff, straight skis, she should be showering snow by the middle of the turn, not the bottom.
    What else ? Upper body leans towards the next turn, well before transition....
     
  6. KL.

    KL. One of Us

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    yes, and the skis are still finishing the current turn (frames 7/8, 25/26), so there is no need to be any earlier. initiation really begins once the outside chest/shoulder forward/ready position has been reached/established because at this position/point the outside hip can naturally release an inside angulation position and rise (move upward) with/to the outside chest/shoulder position (forward/upward movement). also, the forward/ready position allows the body to remain centred and balanced over the skis (even while the skis are finishing the current turn) and then allows a further forward initiation/transition (outside/inward/forward, inside/outward/backward) to proceed.
     
  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    The end of the sequence shows that your insistence that the vertical arm component has no preturn anticipation is correct.
    Control of the pol during that part is critical, reason why poleless is preferred. :)
     
  8. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    For my wedellers wanting to telemark.
    First listen to a guru and learn nothing new.

    Now watch him ... effortless start of his turns..something familiar ?... like you dou.. cross of the inside arm ?..go for it !
     
  9. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    I have often thought that the most effective rethink towards Whole Body would be if Harold Harb was to tell it like it is, rather than produce vague explanations of Counteracting like "It holds the tail of the outside ski in place"
    Instead, one must read between the lines..
    "This methodology is a result of the leg steering principles held so dearly by the PSIA system.
    In contrast, the PMTS System uses no leg steering, instead preferring to get the skis on an angle by tipping the feet and counteracting the hips and using the arms, hands, and torso as the external cues for this to be accomplished."
    But you don't see skiers deliberately tipping their feet after doing the exercise for a while. hmmm..
    .
     
  10. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    You seem to be a little confused with core based kinetic chain function.
     
  11. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Harb has come back again, this time to make some money by pretending that upper body involvement is incredibally difficouldte and only comprehended by 1% of instructors.
    His statement that "using the arms, hands, and torso as the external cues" actually would assist the turn beggars belief.
    Does the "kinetic chain" dogma explain how that miracle takes place ?
     
  12. KL.

    KL. One of Us

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    only 1%? so is that just Harb and those he approves/registers?

    The poles can simply be held so that they point rearward and remain out of the way, can’t they.


    Once the outside chest/shoulder forward/ready position has been reached/established then next, all useful methods need to reach/establish a position where the outside hip is moved/rotated forward so that driving both skis, steering, edging, and carving is possible/permitted. The outside hip moved/rotated forward position needs (is best) to be reached/established at the end of initiation, and/or beginning of transition. The sooner both skis can be driven, steered, and edged, in control, is always best. It would appear in these pics that the outside hip moved/rotated forward position has been reached/established in frames 18/19, 37/38. I call the chest/shoulder forward/ready position and outside hip moved/rotated forward position, forward/ready/forward or simply forward/forward.

    Why use an outside/inward/forward initiation/transition?
    - outside initiation/transition by its very action brings the outside chest/shoulder into a forward/ready position (hopefully very early) and an outside hip moved/rotated forward position (hopefully very early)

    Why hand follow hand?
    - to demonstrate this, simply put your hands together then move them forward to the right then move them forward to the left. In each case (right then left) you should notice the equivalent of an outside initiation, that is the outside chest/shoulder is moved into a forward/ready position.
    - you should also notice that forearms rotate inward (outside) and outward (inside), especially if your outside hand rolls over the inside hand.
    - you should also notice that if continued that an outside hip moved/rotated forward position is reached/established (left then right, pretending that you are punching the gnome on the top of the head while it is moving in the direction of the turn).
     
  13. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Looks like online video sales this time . He already gave away lots, so they have to reveal new secrets to work.
    Poles that weigh nothing would then not slow down the Mambo rotation. (it is a bit over the top.)
    Hey, Photobucket is back.
    Remember this illustration from day one of "cues" for your feet ?
    [​IMG]
     
  14. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    I follow Harold with interest because his artificial knee is making him realize that a whole body approach (counteracting) will let him still hold his own with any of the popular demons of demonstration.
    His newfound appreciation of anticipation is already reflected in his $10 videos.
    We have now an "Angry Mother" video series featuring an exercise with upper body rotation in the direction of the next turn.
    Should be nothing new to our emancipated few ?

    "Overview
    Counteracting enhances edge grip and gives you an easy transition from one turn to the next. The hands-on-hips sequence of the Angry Mother 1 video engages the whole torso in counteracting: arms and shoulders down to the hips. "
     
  15. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Harb states that his technique does not use leg steering.
    It involves "tipping"
    But this "tipping" if the inside leg is no longer seen as the student advances.
    So what is left ?
    "Holding your counteraction" means "Stop your rotation" in forbidden language.
    Which is spoken here.
    Ahah! EVERYTHING "tips"
    Harb: "In my previous posts, I describe how the world cup skiers do this. Which is, increase the hip counteracting before the releases and hold it while the feet, boots, skis and legs tip to the new direction."
     
  16. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    "Angry Mother 2" converts your pole plant into a pole touch which then does not cancel the effect of your "counteracting".
    This poster reckons that he has got it right.

    Sadly, No !
    First Run: Forgets that Harb insists that Counteracting is a MOVEMENT, not a body position. Counteracts much too early and "holds" it right through the turn. The "hold" must be at the moment of transition. He has no rotation movement to transfer.
    Second Run: Forgotten about the counteracting while he concentrates on making the timing of the pole touch correct.

    I recommend that you get those two videos.
    Although Harb insists that they are a small part of PTMS, they are the crux.
     
  17. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Kruckenahuser's Tecknik is based on science.
    How is scientific truth established ?
    For a start, we examine how the real world actually behaves and present a hypothesis to explain that occurrence.
    When a more probing investigation or further data makes that hypothesis impossible or crazy we abandon it.
    Works well.
    Except in the case of pseudo scientists, who cling desperately to their pet theories and complicate them until everybody leaves.
    The Foot Uppers are like the Flat Earthers, isolated from reality by a dogma.
    Should concentrate on angels on the head of a pin, which will then not damage the enjoyment of skiing of millions.
     
  18. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Q: If we should remain centered, how can we change pressure from the tip to the tail as the turn progresses ?
    A: At first, a transferred rotation will rotate the ski tips towards the snow if the body is inclined, instead of the wedeln slide which occurs if it is vertical.
    From U.S. :
    "Just allow the body to move into the new turn while the feet are still completing the old turn and by the time the feet enter the new turn the body will be ahead of the feet. No need of a movement of a body part to 'get forward'."
    Ah ! No body parts involved. Solved.
     
  19. KL.

    KL. One of Us

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    slalom skate boarding

     
  20. KL.

    KL. One of Us

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    speed skating
     
  21. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    It is necessary to separate turning movements from pumping movements. The slower skateboarders shown may have more fore us ?
    At least, the kinetic chain is all "top down" :)
     
  22. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Kinetic chains..
    Ski racers use the most effective mix of "top down" and "feet up" kinetic chains.
    Harb: top down bias (tipping, etc ).
    U.S : feet up bias. - but the extreme application of this is definitely detrimental. "over the top", you might say.
    But they are coming around:
    "
    Kinetic chain considerations
    However, the two approaches result in different turn mechanics and dynamics and a keen eye can pick either bias in one's skiing, given the way big vs small muscle groups are used (or rather in what sequence?).
    If we look at the kinetic chain activation (the sequence of of muscles and joints that we use to move and transmit actions and reactions throughout the body), the brain can activate it:
    • top to bottom, i.e. big muscle groups to small muscle groups, i.e. core, hips, knees, feet. Each segment acts on the segment before it, until the movement is effected from one end to the other.
    • bottom to top, i.e. feet, knees, hips, core etc
    • mixed, in high performance or emergency situations: a highly tuned athlete could activate multiple segments simultaneously, in anticipation."
    Woops! Start talking about ARMS, please.

     
  23. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    So, are my five year olds "highly tuned athletes" ?
     
  24. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Snowboard style vs wedeln way. Fascinating !
     
  25. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    No sno ? Sorry.
    Pedal hopping on the Lotse Face. 50 degrees, 8 inches of snow on black ice.[​IMG]
    And now, 7000 from the summit. Never took off their skis. Brrr..
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/2018/10/first-ski-descent-lhotse-hilaree-nelson-jim-morrison/
    [​IMG]



    Hopping. Double pole when stationary, single pole while dynamic.
    What snow condition is needed for fall-and-die skiing where "Every turn lost 5 meters of vertical" ?
    Skiers with ultimate skill and confidence are still playing russian roulette.
    Hopping is not a jump turn, just "body moves first".
     
    #425 bawbawbel, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  26. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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  27. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well placed my good sir, well placed.
     
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  28. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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  29. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Permission to post, sir ? Sir, Yes Sir!
    Q: Why do mountains look steeper in summer ?
    [​IMG]
     
  30. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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  31. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Even the most negligent reader will have now absorbed our basic tenet : Anticipation BEFORE the turn.
    Smooth, easy, effective.
    But for the expert with a built in smerk, we now unveil a faster and more athletic version : Anticipation WITHIN the turn.
    This is what Jean Claude did not try to teach Putin, but it should be within the capability of the average demonstration skier, providing that he has an open mind.
    https://books.google.com.au/books?i...nepage&q="anticipation turn " skiing&f=false
     
  32. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    We will attack the biggest problem head on. If our student already has considerable other qualifications, those stored muscle memories will take over from logical consideration of our instructions.
    Imagine a conversation between two protagonists:
    DP, (Doug Pfeiffer), who did the high speed photography above, and
    TP, (Turns from the Pheet).

    TP: " You point out an initial weight back position. This is slow. You sink onto the edge and then rise to free the tails. The new way is to let gravity start the turn."
    DP: " No, We are making a firm platform so that a vigorous upper body rotation will not affect our balance. It actually results in a much faster turn ".
    TP: "Derr.. "
     
  33. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Killy hated to have his style examined, and it shows here, where the last position is a figment by the author for completion of the illustrated turn, completely incorrect.
    You will note that the photographic sequence does not cross the fall line.
    Even a rotating dive down the hill must end before that point.
     
  34. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    More-
    That image is not only confusing, it is the fakest of fake news..
    The skis DO NOT rotate initially as the top arm and shoulders come around.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/Bq5RoMbfKYZ9ho4tLl/giphy.gif
    Pfeiffer phails to comprehend how anticipation works.
    A million skiers on the wrong track for the next 50 years.
    My heart is heavy with the responsibility I have undertaken to straighten out their twisted minds..
     
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  35. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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  36. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    BBB. You seem to have gone through a whole stack of principles/ movements recently without mentioning 1 important related factor.- ( both good and bad) Will give you clue- Shiffrins Get Over It drill.
     
  37. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Use Killy's technique and you too can fall like Killy

     
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  38. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Killy was not compensating for any muscle problem, surely. If he actually saw the illustration, he would have been bemused to see his anticipation turn changed to a pole assisted jump turn. All in the mind. Maybe Red Bull might help with comprehension of the text.
     
  39. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thanks. What is the bad part of her drill ?
     
  40. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Its a great drill. What cant be ignored is foot pronation. That drill helps with awareness/ adaptation .
     
  41. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    That is probably why skiers with large feet dominate.
    Shiffrin probably lost her advantage for a while when she changed her normal setup which involved putting hankies in the boots to give her toes something to grip on.
    She was probably in pain trying to maintain the suggested "Dynamic Arch Tension".

    "Her stability comes from a high degree of tension in the arches of her stance foot. Stability starts there and extends to the pelvis. Core strength and tension in the lats and traps stabilizes her pelvis from above. The degree of tension in the arches is directly related to ramp angle. Interference with the processes of the arches of the foot responsible for what I refer to as Intrinsic Dynamic Tension will make the ability to Get Over It and a strong stance impossible."

    Back to the hankies.
     
  42. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Tom explains things quite well on this vid. Too much is too much/ not enough is not enough . Personal skeletal- muscle structure and changing dynamics- terrain dictate when and how to incorporate. The bottom line is you cant ignore your natural tendencies our bodies interact with physics. Drills help establish awarenes .
     
  43. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Fine. But we are usually working with an encased and restricted foot when we ski. Needed for stability at speed.
    My initial sideslipping exercises end with the question :
    "Now, how can we flatten the skis when the body is inclined ?"

    The comma attitude is the first requirement.
    The mysterious "rotation of the femurs" is the second requirement.

    Why ?
    Because the knees must point outwards while the feet are turned inwards.
    That is the ONLY reason why we do it.
    "Foot Steering" is otherwise forbidden. :)
     
  44. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    It is true that I have taken for granted that my experienced students have a grounding of proper "traditional" instruction..
    But the strange "feet up" dogma seems to have destroyed that and left nothing in it's place but meaningless mouthings.
    So, on your recommendation, I will include some of the basics in the simplified course.
    For instance, I have asked students to gain extra stability by "always turning", but who in the latest crop has had it explained ?
    My initial sideslipping exercises end with the question :
    "Now, how can we flatten the skis when the body is inclined ?"
    The comma attitude is the first requirement.
    The mysterious "rotation of the femurs" is the second requirement. (But it is NOT used to initiate the turn.)
    It is necessary because the knees must point outwards while the feet are turned inwards.
    We retain balance automatically during the turn while in this configuration.
    If the skis tend to slip away in the turn they get extra edging.
     
  45. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    A relative on her motorbike had her lower leg removed by the back bumper of a Bug.
    Her "ski leg" has simple progressive foot spring but an observer cannot tell any difference between her left and right turns.
    Boot buckles at max on that side !
     
  46. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    As Harb once proclaimed:
    "There are many misunderstandings in ski teaching and coaching technique. What is astounding, is that the really talented skiers get around the poor advice and let their natural instincts take over."
    I think that I have found the origin of the strange "dead upper body" with no hand or arm involvement teaching.
    A PSIA ski patroller needed that technique to handle an akja .
    Would you believe that that qualification caused the rot to set in ?
    It kills any anticipation stone dead..
    https://joinskipatrol.wordpress.com/2011/12/04/the-ski-test-a-k-a-dont-ski-like-stein-erickson/
     
  47. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    A safer but futile way would be to just go half way.
    Martin Heckleman deleted this from his course, probably because he could not make it work while retaining a pole plant.
    Pity
     
  48. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Tom goes on to establish the importance both of shoulder position and shoulder movement in order to avoid locking out your turn with a pole plant, which we have addressed ad nauseam .
    In fact, he illustrates the solution with a nice inner arm anticipation:

    OK, so he was just being funny, but we are deadly serious...
     
  49. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Location:
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    I examine previous attempts to reintroduce the logical movements of whole-body and why they failed.
    They usually start with "This not rotation, it is a whole NEW way to ski !" and then proceed to try and prove it, readers losing interest as the laborious explanations unfold.
    Typical was the Thaichi "stomach" skiing.
    A 2004 book
    Skiing the New Easier Way: Secrets of the S Technique
    By Duncan Reid
    is typical.

    He states "This is the OPPOSITE of rotation" , but then starts off with "the broken wing" gliding wedge, which uses our inner arm wedeln movement.
    You are supposed to anticipate with your hips, but not your body. Not easy.
    https://books.google.com.au/books?i...CAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=" S Technique" ski&f=false
     
  50. KL.

    KL. One of Us

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    truly, outside chest/shoulder forward first then outside hip then block (if necessary, hopefully flow prevails) ... it is really as simple as that, truly​