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Question Wild horse removal Bogong High Plains

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Chaeron, Jan 22, 2018.

  1. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I read that piece in the SMH (Age) yesterday and it also mentioned the Jindy meeting. I feel a bit of a tide turning also as the election draws closer. I liked how it mentioned the way farmers saw the horses as a problem and killed them. I also like the way the bogs were described. Like a sponge, holding water for up to 7 years and keeping flow in streams then the 'flow on' from that, the fish die, we die.
     
  2. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    The sponge analogy isn't really correct. The living sphagnum and some of the underlying peat soil quickly suck up the water and then quickly let it out. The lower part of the peat soil electrostatically bonds with the water and can hold onto it for up to 15 years. The change between the two layers is very sudden and hydrologically separates them. Water either quickly moves through the bog or gets suck in it.

    In either case the peat soil is made up of such large organic compounds it de-ionises the water. Water leaves bogs purer than it was when it feel as train.
     
  3. Undies

    Undies Pizza! Ski Pass: Gold

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    There were some folks collecting signatures for this in Balmain on the weekend. I signed, but most folks seemed oblivious to the cause.
     
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  4. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Repreived Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think instead of shooting feral horses and deer we should repurpose them.

     
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  6. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    They look happy enough!
     
  7. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Look like reindeer.....
     
  8. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  9. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  10. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    These horses are starving to death but there is still a group trying to save them. Unfortunately a good friend of mine is one of them. The trouble is there are no homes for these horses and no food in the park. That is why they are wandering onto roads and into towns. Another friend of mine has a Barmah forest feral and I don't think they are worth saving. No doubt another federal court injunction while the place degrades further. It infuriates me that so many horse lovers can be so one eyed and never consider anything more than saving a worthless animal. Bugger the biodiversity.
     
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  11. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  12. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Good article. The west is doing something right. Fertility control is a very expensive solution. Statistically there would be half the number of colts and stallions. You only need one boy to do the job and to cut all the boys would be a very slow and expensive operation. Stallions are easier to define when mature but colts look like fillies unless you have the time to get close and have a look at the undercarraige. There would be a way to use fertility control for some short term gain. Instead of gelding the stallions, emasculate them. This leaves the nuts in but cuts the vas defrons. Vasectomy in other words. The idea would be to keep the stallion in charge of the herd and covering the mares. Gelding changes the behaviour of horses and may make them less aggressive to other male intruders. If this could be done now then there would be a lower population growth in the interim and until we can get a government, that has not been gelded, to take the reins of control. Interesting the way the article talks of feral horses in the west and brumbies over here. What's the difference? We all need to stop calling these animals brumbies. The more language that talks about them as feral the better. People relate feral to bad and brumby to heritage.
     
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  13. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us

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  14. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    No surprise there. The whole "proper count" is the backbone of the pro brumby campaign.

    I ponder who will win the tender to do the counting and what methods will be used ?
     
  15. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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  16. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I noticed in this article a comment about a lot of lame horses spotted and assumed it was because they were getting hurt on the terrain. I doubt this. What is more likely to be happening is the hoofs are continually moist and soft due to the terrain and this can allow a bug in the soil to get in through cracks. Fusiformus bacteria are common is soil and it may have been introduced during grazing. It causes a thing horse people call seedy toe and can eat the inside of the hoof away. Loves anaerobic conditions. Although not fatal to a horse, it will cause it to lose condition because it cannot move to new pasture with the rest of the herd. Perhaps these could be shot for humane reasons as it will be a long an painful death.
     
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  17. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I think a count was always on the cards regardless, although counts have been done before. The previous counts are now out of date according to the pro-horse group. A count and cull could be done at the same time. Knock off a couple of thousand horses and add that to the count. Those counting could also be spotting for the shooters, finding or mapping mobs.
     
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  18. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I think a count was always on the cards regardless, although counts have been done before. The previous counts are now out of date according to the pro-horse group. A count and cull could be done at the same time. Knock off a couple of thousand horses and add that to the count. Those counting could also be spotting for the shooters, finding or mapping mobs. Another draft management plan which then has to go out for evaluation and comment. By the time anything happens there will be another election. That is the definition of immediate in political terms.
     
  19. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The pro horse groups will only accept a count that they themselves undertake.
     
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  20. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    The truth is no one needs a count to know feral horses have been, are and will continue to cause long term damage to their environments unless they are removed.

    As you suggest it’s a stalling tactic.

    The quicker action is taken the less damage there will be and the more humane it will be with less ferals to kill or be subjected to starvation and poor health due to their environment not being able to support them.
     
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  21. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us

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    Interesting. Thanks for the insights Xplora.

    I have seen a lot of lame horses around Cooleman and Tantangara plains and I always thought it was the tussock causing them to break a leg.

    Here is a vid of one - https://imgur.com/a/K1mbb2A - I left it there in a snowstorm and when I went back two weeks later the horse was dead. Shitty way to go.
     
  22. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us

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    Now if the Horsie types were as passionate about the environment and our native fauna, we’d probably have far less endagered species!
     
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  23. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    "The count" is the #1 stalling tactic. The pro brumby crew will not be happy until every feral horse has been run through a race and tagged.
     
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  24. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    It would be better to count dead horses than live ones.
     
  25. GS

    GS A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    easier too
     
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  26. Gimp

    Gimp One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    So Barilaro blatantly lied to that pre election media gathering.
     
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  27. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    No surprises - nowadays it comes as a shock if a pollie tells the truth.
     
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  28. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    he came with money and lies, he got the vote

    Stralya
     
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  29. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Exactly. And this would be the most efficient use of resources, so it will never happen this way.
     
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  30. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Another 4 horses gone from BHP. I will let people know about exact date closures for the aerial deer cull once they have been determined. Notice will be short but they hope for 4 days in a row.
     
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  31. teletripper

    teletripper Addicted

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    Anyone see any parallels here?
    USA - The Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 (Public Law 92-195)
    https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/programs_wildhorse_history_doc1.pdf
    NSW Australia - Kosciuszko Wild Horse Heritage Act 2018 No 24
    https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/2018/24/part1/sec3

    What happens when politicians/legislators bend to populist opinion, disregard science, facts and management expertise, with no thought to the long term irreconcilable situations and impacts that their laws create.

     
  32. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  33. teletripper

    teletripper Addicted

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    Without trying to be preachy, can I encourage anyone who has concerns about allowing a similar situation to what has played out with the NSW KNP horse situation spreading to Victoria and in turn flowing onto conservation reserves across the country, now is the time to make a formal submission to the Barmah plan to indicate your support, even if you don’t live in Victoria or visit Barmah. You can bet that the brumby loving fraternity and anti parks activists from right across the country and internationally are mobilising to bring Parks Vic unstuck on this one. If Parks Vic and it’s political masters go weak at the knees on the Barmah plan through lack of general community support, then you can kiss good bye to any rational approach to feral horse control in the Vic Alps, any chance of redeeming the ridiculous situation of controlling and managing ferals in NSW or SE Australia for that matter. No use just voicing your opinions on social media. Need to make your views known via the formal channels. Only takes 10 minutes online.
     
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  34. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    +10, 000
     
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  35. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Thanks Teletripper. Well said and also very true. When you read the plan you will see just how many groups with vested interests in saving these horses were present at meetings. There were, in grave contrast, only two others (from memory and one being the VNPA) who would have supported proper feral horse management. I wrote a one page extra add on also. One problem I see emerging, other than horses, is deer and pigs. Sambar deer are there already and are much harder to eradicate. Money is not being spent on these problems because it is being diverted to passive trapping and re-homing. I suggested these vested interest group put up some money for the horses trapped. One thing I did like was the decision only to trap if homes were found but I suggested it was not the role of PV to help find those homes.
     
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  36. The Plowking

    The Plowking Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Survey completed.
     
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  37. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Channel 7 tonight
    What sounds like a soft story on 'brumbies'
     
  38. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I added this to my survey response:

    “Supposed ‘cultural’ values on feral horses should be entirely ignored as a criterion in assessing this management plan as all this represents is a very vocal minority with vested interests who do NOT represent the population of Victoria as a whole, and who also entirely ignore the scientific evidence around irreversible habitat destruction.

    It is critical to assess the management plan in the light of scientific evidence and within the context of long-term ecological outcomes.

    Optimising land management of this vulnerable site in line with optimal multi-generational outcomes is our legal an moral obligation under current Victorian and federal legislation.

    Aerial culling of horses is the most effective, cheapest and most humane way to address the presence of a destructive alien species, regardless of the optics of the situation.”
     
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  39. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    My comment was broadly similar, in particular highlighting that heritage values are not supported by the historical record of how feral horses were regarded as pests to be exterminated.
     
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  40. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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  41. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  42. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    I'm in the odd position of having a keen interest in hunting for food, but being put off by the bulk of "shooters" that I see, especially those who hunt primarily for trophies rather than for food.

    I would love to know of a "club lodge" for hunting that had the requisite butchering areas and was welcoming and open generally. There are sufficient capital costs that, if spread out between multiple people, would be manageable (e.g. having a vehicle for the transport of the kill back to the "lodge", processing equipment etc) but wouldn't be worth it for just one person (or family).
     
  43. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I can see so many similarities between the wild horses of USA and Australia. This was a good video, not pushing any particular angle, rather leaving the viewer to decide. One comment stuck in my mind: "Somebody has to stand up for the native animals." Horses were not part of the natural ecosystem and have no natural predators, so they are unfairly competing with native wildlife species for the same land and food sources. Supporters of the feral horses need to decide: Horse or species X for potential distinction???? Let them pick.
     
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  44. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Horse people will just pick the horse.
     
  45. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Crown land leases can be obtained.
     
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  46. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    I know A guy that had an awesome crown land setup out Dalgety way. Only passed in on a few years ago.
     
  47. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Good idea. I suspect the health department would make it so hard but . . . . . perfectly fine to butcher your own beast in the bush or your dirty garage at home, but in a "proper" set-up would launch the regulations into hyperdrive in my opinion?
     
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  48. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    There are a small number of mobile butchers in the SE of NSW. A mate gets his farm animals done this way, he does most things himself but figures good butchering pays for itself when it’s the meat you live off for the year. If you were interested in details I could maybe dig them up?
     
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  49. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    Much as I would love to, I'm nowhere near that stage yet. It's been ages since I held a rifle, and I would need to learn how to stalk deer and field dress a carcass etc before I could consider the processing side of things, as well as the whole sporting shooter license etc.
     
  50. Undies

    Undies Pizza! Ski Pass: Gold

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    Is there such a thing as myxomatosis for brumbies? We need a vial of it spilled in the snowy catchment.