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Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by snow drive solutions, Jul 3, 2020.
Road carnage, what road carnage
The top of Nuggets Hill at 7:10 am Monday with two AWD/4WD battling to gain traction to get past another that had failed to gain traction and stuck itself in the snow bank.
Small AWD tried to get past the stuck one, it's electronic AWD system failing to obtain traction so the big white 4WD tried to get past and suffered the same stuttering fate of electronics largely overwhelmed by the situation.
The cars shown are all stopped.
Jumped out, as well as the work mate in the orange Subi XV to help push but the big 4WD crab walked itself forward and out of the way so we both jumped back in and without a hint of wheel spin drove past the unfolding mess and were on our way.
This little bit of mayhem ended up closing the road not long afterwards.
The winning factor being snow or snow oriented tyres that allowed grip from a stop on a steep incline.
Snow Tyres and decent AWD/4WD rock.
The road in after that was even more snowy but with some smooth overtaking a relatively easy and smooth drive. Twelve cars off the road beyond the half dozen at the top of the hill and as always a bongo van stuck sideways on van life corner but he had done very well to get that far without chains.
Almost all offs where AWD/4WD.
But their tyres
It can be done quite easily with AWD and road tyres as long as there are no interruptions to the forward motion and the driver knows how to use all tactile faculties available to him/her.
Hill starts are tricky .....
... I have never parked and hopped out for a tourist pic before but couldn't resist top of Nuggets on the way home. Road was closed to uphill traffic and the only downhill was me and another bloke who knew what's what. We stopped twice to remove trees off the road.
A very pleasant drive home about 1:30pm with a detour up Cranky Flat road to pick up a parcel, through Jindy, the tourist play zone zoo north of the dam wall, the mess up the hill and out to my place.
It was surreal. TBC luxury truck was awesome.
Round the outside .....
Momentum is key.
Coming down the hill after Rennix yesterday morning ole mate was putting chains on.
Right where everyone usually has a off. Near the guthega turnoff.
PB road is much more .... interesting.
Momentum and lots n lots of .... round the outside
Drove back to Syd on Monday night, interesting bit of road after the dam, even more interesting were some of the drivers and their choices.
Must be liberating wandering though life with absolutely no concept of Physics.
PB road is only interesting cause of other cars.
As a road. It's not a worry.
I was kind of disappointed I did not encounter a snow man constructed in the middle of the road, everything else but alas no man of snow
To be fair, the majority of cars in the mountains are AWD of some sort or another, and on any downhill they are just as useless as a 2WD if driven poorly. So I kinda expect the majority of offs to be that type.
Now those ****ers who can't drive up a hill in snow need their nuts removed with a butter knife, just sayin!
It would help if people put decent tyres on their cars. Not even snow, or M+S tyres. I’d be happy if most people attempting to drive up just had decent quality tyres with tread on them, and haven’t done 80k’s.
To be honest, a lot of the AWD and 4WD that get into trouble it is largely due to the crap cheap and worn tyres they have. Well that and poor skills, lack of common sense, no concentration, over confidence, not looking or thinking ahead .... .
It's not just cheap. But most of these cars have highway HP rubber .
I remember walking past a rs version of a euro SUV in the car park.
It was running on virtual slicks.
Safety first dawooduck I hope you double chained like old mate earlier in the thread......
Robbo MCS I like to buy my tyres a year in advance put them in the attic so they go super hard so I can get 100km+ out of them and get value for money.... who needs grip.
This video will help to explain why there are so many issues with AWDs driving in snow and icy conditions as experienced two weekends ago
You wonder why they don’t mandate chains for AWD vehicles in NSW then. Exempting them probably creates a false sense of security in some drivers.
While I have absolutely no doubt that winter tyres perform better in snow, I'm just wondering how realistic this comparison is. From a quick google on the summer tyres being used here:
Goodyear's warranty states that "ultra high-performance summer tires are not recommended for winter use, and tread or shoulder cracking on those tires resulting from winter use will not be covered under our warranty," so like all summer tires, the Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 is not intended to be stored, serviced or driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.
i.e these would seem like tyres that you would NEVER expect to use on snow.
Surely a more relevant comparison would be an AWD drive fitted with MS tyres or at least tyres that most of us would be more likely to be using. I've been driving AWD in the snow for many years - sometimes with M&S tyres, sometimes just my standard all year tyres - but would never have contemplated doing so on ultra high-performance tyres
Just remembered I hadn’t tried out the new chains yet.
So rather than trying to figure out how they fit on the side of the road, I pulled the spare wheel out for a fitting.
Should be OK
This "Notice of Preparation of Regulatory Impact Statement Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2020" was advertised in The Age (page 33) 27.07.2020
Notice of Preparation of Regulatory Impact Statement Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2020
Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulatory Impact Statement
"Make a submission on the Regulatory Impact Statement for the proposed Alpine Resorts Regulations
The Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2020 will replace the Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2009, which expires on 3 November 2020.
The objectives of the proposed Regulations are to ensure Alpine Resorts are managed safely and efficiently by—
(a) prohibiting access to areas of alpine resorts or parts of alpine resorts by persons and vehicles
(b) setting aside areas in alpine resorts for public use
(c) regulating the use, driving and parking of vehicles in alpine resorts
(d) prescribing offences
(e) prescribing fees for entry into alpine resorts and access and use of areas set aside for public use and
(f) prescribing other matters to give effect to the Alpine Resorts (Management) Act 1997.
The Regulatory Impact Statement (RIS) (DOCX, 3.7 MB) looks at the impacts of the proposed Regulations (PDF, 376.7 KB). You can have your say on the Alpine Resorts (Management) RIS, please send your submissions to firstname.lastname@example.org by 5pm on Monday 24 August 2020."
Regulatory Impact Statement Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2020
RIS - Page 5 Wheel chain provisions have been amended to align with forthcoming amendments to the Road Safety Road Rules 2017. These have been updated following consultation with VicRoads
 The Road Safety Rules are anticipated to be amended soon in relation to wheel chains. Once this amendment occurs, the use of wheel chains will be managed entirely under the Road Safety Rules, and the parts of the proposed Regulations that require the use of wheel chains will have no further practical effect. Authorised officers of the Boards will still have the power to ask individuals in the resorts to leave if they fail to produce wheel chains or have them properly fitted.
RIS - Page 17-18 Road safety risks Roads in alpine areas can become very dangerous in wet or icy weather conditions, significantly increasing the risk of vehicle accidents resulting in personal injury, death or damage to vehicles and other property. The current regulations require that wheel chains (sometimes referred to as ‘snow chains’) must be carried by all vehicles entering the resorts during the snow season, except when Boards determine otherwise. At the direction of an authorised officer, wheel chains must be properly fitted to the drive wheels of vehicles, usually in poor weather conditions.
Similar requirements to carry wheel chains throughout the winter season and fit them where directed exist at alpine resorts in New South Wales (except for 4WD vehicles) and New Zealand. At northern hemisphere alpine resorts, such as in Canada and the USA, winter tyres are normally fitted to vehicles throughout winter in preference to fitting wheel chains.
An important general principle of safety management is that the on-site operator (in this case the Boards) should be responsible for assessing and minimising risks to public safety, rather than a regulator. In accordance with this principle, there is an expectation that the Boards exercise their waiver powers reasonably and responsibly and in strict accordance with internal policies and procedures. These responsibilities include real time assessments of the latest road and weather conditions as to whether wheel chains should be carried by all vehicles, or whether by only 2WD and not 4WD vehicles.
As there is no other legislation dealing with wheel chains in alpine resorts, there is a clear need for similar regulations to be remade in the interests of public safety and wellbeing. It is intended that forthcoming amendments to the Road Safety Rules by VicRoads will take over regulatory control on the use of wheel chains, however there may be a small window of time until those amendments commence. Hence, there is a short-term need to continue to ensure that the Regulations deal with the risk of damage to vehicles and people in vehicles if the vehicles cannot be sufficiently controlled in snow conditions.
Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations Exposure Draft
Page 22-23 Definitions in this Division In this Division—
snow tyre means a tyre that is specifically designed for driving on roads affected by snow or ice;
wheel chains means devices made up of chains in a diamond pattern that are designed to be fitted to wheels of a vehicle to increase the traction of the wheels on a road affected by snow or ice.
"I have all-wheel drive on my BMW X5 so I don't need winter tyres”
Acceleration with original equipment All-Season or All-Terrain tyres in winter conditions is relatively easy to achieve with AWD and 4WD. Driving is usually OK until there is a need to steer or stop in a hurry, and the tyres do not grip.
This is why you see so many SUVs and 4X4s off the road in alpine areas.
(thanks to PSW for the image)
Ok please don’t laugh at me but - chains on the rear wheels for AWDs, right?
I thought it was front wheels at least it is for my Kia Sorrento AWD. I’m no expert tho!
Ok thanks, that means I should stop being lazy and actually read my car manual haha
Most AWD systems power the front wheels full-time, with the rears being brought online if slip is detected. So the front is the place for chains for such vehicles. And for true AWD systems like Subaru, fronts again.
Front wheels for me as well, for my Hyundai Santa Fe.
Make sure you wash your chains afterwards, I made a rookie mistake and forgot and they got a fair bit of surface rust. Anyway all fixed with WD-40 and a scrub
Thanks muchly. I have a Subaru so probably front. But will still check the manual once my garage gets above 7 degrees - interestingly my previous AWD (Suzuki Grand Vitara, cute little matchbox car) said rear-wheels in the manual
The safety of any vehicle, especially the braking performance, is compromised if wheel chains are fitted to wheel and tyre combinations that are not approved for the fitting of wheel chains by the vehicle manufacturer.
The ‘Owners manual’ of your vehicle will detail what wheel and tyre combinations are approved for the fitting of wheel chains.
Wheel chains need to have firm compacted snow or ice to penetrate to provide the maximum amount of traction. Traction is often lost when the snow, and/or ice, begins to break up or melts and wheel slip/spin is experienced or in certain situations the vehicle can slide on the wheel chains. The safety of any vehicle, especially the braking performance, is compromised if wheel chains are used on a ‘bare’ road that is free of snow and ice. The problems are always worse when driving down hill than up hill.
Pretty sure my manual said nada. But I think the thought is the front wheel chains will give you steering.
I'd read the manual. Shouldn't need them in a subby anyway.
Just thinking of Guthega road tomorrow morning
Wheel chains should always be fitted to the drive wheels, and if full time 4WD then the steer wheels. Part time 4WD and on-demand AWD fit them to the main drive wheels, which as has been mentioned is the front wheels anyway for most modern cars. Older model Grand Vitaras had part time 4WD so required fitment to the rear. RTFM.
Shouldn't need them in the suby anyway.
Take a runup at any up bits. Use your gears to slow down before any down bits.
Been practising with the manual steering wheel paddles for this reason (don’t know what they are actually called - this is my first auto car)
Sports mode I think. Mines on the gear stick.
Feels so weird changing gears without a clutch!! Almost unnatural
Does a Subaru provide much better traction than part time AWDs?
I have no idea, definitely a question for someone more knowledgeable about cars than I. It has a traction mode for going up hills at slow speed which I’ve used and liked. And then I put it into manual mode so I can change gears manually when needed since I’m so used to engine breaking going down hills
Remember gears are for slowing, brakes are for stopping. Gear down for all sharp descents, auto transmissions included. Brake pads and rotors cost money.
Yeah I always preferred manuals but my auto subi works fine in sports mode. I’d get confused with flappy things though.
Oh I only have full auto or full manual/flappy things. I think?! Ok I really need to go look at my car again lol
Beware of sport modes that change gears at higher revs. Higher revs = more torque = wheel spin in slippery conditions.
Auto in the uphill and manual downshifting on the downhills so you don't need to brake.
The secret to driving in slippery conditions is to drive smoothly, no brakes, no sudden changes of direction. I was in a Statesman at Rennix on the flat years ago, I told the driver to slow right down before going downhill. The auto gearbox changed down a gear and that was enough to break traction and the back end slid out. Luckily he was on the flat and going slow enough to recover. (In a previous life I was a 4WD instructor).
Mine is just putting the gear stick across to a spot that lets it go up and down.
The most important factor for me, is speed management. You must plan ahead. If you calculate you need to be at, and maintain 30kph, down a hill. You need to be at 30kph, before you get to the downhill, and in a fixed gear that will maintain 30kph all the way down, with throttle only adjustments, no brake input at all.
If you arrive at the downhill in 5th gear, doing 50kph. It's too late. You might as well start calling the Tow truck to pull you out of the embankment or ditch.
So my gear stick at the bottom has D-M, for Drive or Manual. Interestingly the manual says if you press one of the gear shift paddles whilst in Drive (auto) mode it switches to Manual mode temporarily. I will have to try that.
It also says to fit snow chains on the front tires! So that’s answered that question.
And it calls the traction mode I referred to “X-mode”, which has hill ascent and descent assist functionality. Very cool.
This is a 2019 Subaru XV is anyone is interested.
Effectively bans ladder chains.
Subi's are the serial offenders of sliding off the road as many drivers think they are invincible and have a false sense of security. There is still a skill in controlling a Subi on challending roads.
Fine by me. I only have diamond patterns in the shop. Might upset my opposition though, who in the main, only have ladder chains.
Awesome generalisation there!
I am not sure what that road is like, but I needed to put the chains on my van to get out of Ngarigo the other week. Just the last pinch up onto the main road.