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Question XTM Pants Shredded

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by eneerhut, Aug 2, 2019.

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  1. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    At the end of May I purchased a new pair of ski pants in preparation for the coming season. Up to that point I'd been wearing a pair of waterproof pants that are not designed for skiing.

    I purchased a pair of XTM pants for ~$200. I have had four ski days in them and they're destroyed. It looks like I have gone to them with a razor blade.

    I took them to the place of purchase for a refund and the first person I dealt with said that I was just unlucky and basically alluded it was my fault. She was kind enough to get the manager though and the manager decided to send to them to XTM, but basically gave me the "you're unlucky" line again and that my skis must have ripped through the pants.

    Maybe this is the case, but here is why I am unsatisfied:

    1. The pants are ripped in multiple places and I have no memory of an incident that would have caused that. It must have been very minor.
    2. The pants have an ever so slight tear in the crutch. There is no way the skis impacted that area, and to me it shows just how weak the outer fabric is.
    3. The tears look like they have occurred from different incidents. Again, this indicates to me poor manufacturing rather than a one of incident.
    4. The pair of pants that I used to ski that were not designed for skiing have no damage whatsoever despite many crashes and a lot more time bearing worn.
    5. The friends I was skiing with are equally confused as to how this happened.

    As a consumer I expect more than 4 days wear from a pair of ski pants.

    Am I unlucky or do you agree that this is poor manufacturing? I'll update here to let you know what the manufacturer says.
     

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  2. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, lover of Pabst, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    Small cuts around the inner ankle gusset area are pretty normal imo, just stitch them back up or leave them if they don’t bother you. The crutch rip though seems more like a manufacturing fault.
     
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  3. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    The small cuts don't bother me, but there is a massive gash near the where my quads would be.
     
  4. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, lover of Pabst, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah the quad tear would have me asking for a refund or swap for another pair. Are the pants quite tight fitting?
     
  5. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    No not tight fitting at all. I really liked them until the tears started showing up. Seems anything can get through the outer layer like a knife through butter.
     
  6. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, lover of Pabst, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    Id say the manufacturer will just send you a replacement pair.
     
  7. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    Fingers crossed or it'll be the last of XTM I ever buy.
     
  8. Conners

    Conners One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    My experience with XTM has been great, they were very happy to stand behind their products
     
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  9. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    I had a much more severe issue of cuts with Aldi gear. I essentially told them (via email, as I was still at the snow) that the product was not fit-for-purpose if it couldn't handle some minor abrasion, as any gear at a beginner snowboarder price point should have enough durability to endure sitting on snow, and some minor sliding.

    They gave me a full refund and paid for the pants I hired in the resort for the remaining 3 days of my trip.
     
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  10. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    That' very impressive by Aldi. I actually avoided buying pants there expecting better products/customer service at the ski shop I visited.
    I agree that gear should be able to handle minor abrasions. It's clear to me that it's poorly manufactured given how easily it tears relative to the other pair of pants I used to wear.
     
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  11. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, lover of Pabst, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ski edges are sharp though, i dont think you can really expect the material to be cut proof. Abrasion yes, cuts from a metal edge no imo.

    * edit, mine are sliced and they’ve only got 14 days on them. Doesn’t bother me though, I’ll just stitch them up when it get way worse.

    D7E93A40-1EC1-4C30-9257-A5C98E20F963.jpeg 18C5E299-CBF6-4B86-A873-AF046808B02D.jpeg
     
  12. LMB

    LMB Old but definitely not Crusty! Ski Pass: Gold

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    I’ve never had a drama with my ski/board edges cutting up my pants but CRAMPONS....ffs...they eat gear - gaiters are a godsend.
     
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  13. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Cirkey, don't look at my pants, I'll feel like a real bum. My gear is workhorse and not show pony (despite the fact it is pricey brands but there is a separate story behind why that is the case, in the end it is fabric meets steel typically). Plenty of cuts, scratches, gashes. Seam grip is my best friend, well my second best friend.
     
  14. Zeroz

    Zeroz A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I have avoided anything XTM for years. Here's my post from 2007 (!!) about an XTM ski bag :

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is what not to buy. I bought a 185cm double ski bag with wheels in January. The manufacturer was XTM.
    I had a similar bag from Dakine which lasted for years.

    After one Oz-Usa-Oz trip the bag is f-ed: wheels fell off, handle ripped, plastic clasps broken, outside ripped. We did pack it with two skis and ski jackets, and I am sure baggage handlers aren't gentle, but the manufacturing quality of the XTM bag was completely useless.

    Avoid
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Bone up on the consumer guarantees in federal law.
    Google law handbook consumer guarantees.
    Tell the retailer in writing that you want a refund, why, and that if they fail to you'll lay a complaint in the relevant state tribunal.
     
  16. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Why be aggressive up front? That just puts people off, and you're less likely to have a satisfactory result. When I get aggro people in my shop like that, my hackles come straight up. FFS, give XTM a chance to rectify the situation. They are a good bunch of people - including Aussie ex-Olympic skiers. They will do the right thing by you. No need for aggro and threats!
     
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  17. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    There's being aggressive, and there's being assertive. @eneerhut has already approached the manufacturer and had a piss-poor response from them - eneerhut is within their rights to approach the manufacturer or the retailer to remedy the issue, and to utilise the options afforded to them under the law to do so.
     
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  18. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    As I understand it, he approached the retailer, not the manufacturer
     
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  19. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us

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    Apologies, you are correct on that - but the thrust of the response remains. A "mild-mannered" appeal to good conscience was attempted and did not succeed, so now a direct and more forceful approach is warranted.
     
  20. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Geez. It's not SDS season is it?
    What a rude society we're becoming :(
     
  21. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Much of the time the retailer doesn't know the basics of Australian Consumer Law, will fob off with talk about what the warranty covers or consumer misuse, and needs a short sharp education.
    I'm myself in the middle of a mess where an online retailer sent goggles with two lenses the same rather than different. We are up to 7 phone calls and 4 emails and it's still not properly resolved.
     
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  22. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's not about the people, it's about the issue.
    And here you are doing what gave the OP a concern - getting personal.
     
  23. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Put them in a postpack to XTM and include a simply worded explanation as to the issue and request a replacement pair.
     
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  24. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    The OP is doing it right, cos there's a process. It's about defining whether there's a dispute that can't be resolved with the retailer, and what the next steps are.
    The OP needs to state clearly what redress they're looking for and what the grounds are*.
    Consumer disputes are resolved at the relevant state tribunal or court though the law is Commonwealth. The two states I know about use a conciliation process and most disputes are settled by agreement.

    * https://www.lawhandbook.org.au/2019_07_03_03_consumer_guarantees_goods/
     
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  25. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Yep, agree. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
    As Teckel said, XTM is a good company with great management/ ownership. I’m sure if they have a product issue they will do the right thing. Give them a chance to resolve the issue before hanging them.
    Real SKI pants will always have a protective material on the inner cuffs. Edge cuts will always happen in this area.
     
  26. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    "You caused the tears" - tell me who's dishing out the vinegar here.
     
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  27. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    The retailer, not XTM.
     
  28. crackson

    crackson A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Xtm make a pretty large range for oz.

    I've had their pants last for ages. My current campfire pants are old xtm. My favourite fleece is xtm and has lasted 5yrs+.

    Never had anything of theirs fail but I know if it did they would gladly swap it. All aus manufacturers and suppliers are awesome with returns.
     
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  29. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sharp ski edges will cut fabric. Most ski pants have a tougher fabric on the inside leg around the boot but even that can be cut, and outside that area if the edge comes in contact with the fabric with enough velocity it will cut your pants.

    Two of those are definitely edge cuts. You just take them to a seamstress who dies outdoor clothes, they’ll patch and stitch them, and you’re done.

    I think you’re being very unfair on XTM. It’s not like pants spontaneously cut themselves
     
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  30. Gregah

    Gregah One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    FWIW I recently bought my son a pair of XTM gloves at Anaconda with hopes they might be fit for purpose for a serious alpine environment (Colorado in Jan 2020). He tried them out for a day at Buller last week (0 degrees with drizzle). They stayed dry but they were not warm enough for him to want to continue on with. They didn't cost a motza but I bought on brand reputation so in the end I was a bit disappointed to be honest.
     
  31. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    After the first few cuts I get another layer of tough vinyl sewn on the boot cuff areas.
     
  32. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    I’ve done this as well. Worth the investment.
     
  33. crackson

    crackson A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just checked my factions. Zero cuts.

    :)
     
  34. Nidecker

    Nidecker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Cuts occur in weird places not just the cuffs, especially if you keep ski / snowboard edges sharp.
    Probably more especially if you have had a set of skis professionally tuned since buying the pants.
    I expect XTM might replace even though the pants have cuts in them.
    I think if you were going with a definition of "fit for purpose" in relation to razor sharp ski edges you may need to buy motorcycling pants. :)
     
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  35. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    I did give the first sales rep a rant about having a reasonable expectation that under consumer law I have a reasonable expectation that the pair of pants would last more than 4 days on the slopes. If anything, at least it made her get the owner/manager who was a bit more interested in finding a solution.
     
  36. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    I totally get the skis can cut pants, but I've outlined why I don't think that's a reasonable explanation given the state of the pants.
    1. The outer fabric is showing the beginning of a tear in the crutch area as well. This is after four days on the slopes. The is one bit of damage the skis don't explain and it shows our weak the outer layer is.
    2. There are cuts everywhere. The store indicated that this was unlucky, but it seems that the slightest aberration will rip these pants because there are so many cuts throughout after just 4 days.
    3. My skis haven't been tuned. Sure they're sharp, but I don't imagine they're any different to the average pair of pants.
    4. My other pair of non-ski pants shows none of the same damage, despite many more days on the slopes and many more stacks that could have caused similar damage.
     
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  37. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    That seems like a good idea. Might do that next time. Wouldn't have helped with the quad area rip though unless I do it to the entire length of the pants ;)
     
  38. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    Fair call. I love supporting Aussie companies and from what others here have said, they are generally very reasonable. I'll write back if they resolve the issue satisfactorily and update the opening post. Hopefully I hear back later this week.
     
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  39. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    The crutch of any pant is a weak spot and usually made stronger to cope so I think the tear there is poor QC but I wonder if the other small cuts have been made by something small and sharp on one of the chairs? A screw edge perhaps or a shard of broken glass? Or somebodies ski edge whilst they were carrying them to a rack at a cafe?
     
  40. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Different pants are made with different thicknesses and durability. Counter intuitively often cheaper pants are more durable (but heavier, less waterproof and less breathable). I have some pants (typically shells) that are quite susceptible to edge cuts, and others which are highly durable (as I say typically at lower price point).

    I can also say one time in a spectacular yard sale I remember getting an edge cut toward the crutch. I remember thinking that I couldn’t possibly have got my ski up there! But I did!!

    So yes maybe it’s a QC problem. Or maybe that’s what you expect out of ski pants. One piece of my ski clothing would get to Venus Repairs most years.
     
  41. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Yeah, that certainly looks like a quality issue, unless of course you've got quads like Hermann Maier:D
     
  42. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Incidentally some of my older pants are more patches than original fabric toward the boots
     
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  43. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    Duct tape should come in more colours. I tend towards roofing silicon and scraps of similar fabric. Good points on the UL fabrics being less robust too
     
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  44. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    Ok just heard from the place of purchase. XTM was unwilling to repair it saying it wasn't a manufacturing issue. The retailer will get back to me with a quote for repair. I don't really know what options I have, so I guess repair it is.

    The retailer says I must have had a nasty crash and a lot of bruising but neither of those is true. Perhaps it got caught in the chairlift.

    Quite a few people I speak to stand by XTM, so I won't throw them under the bus. Nonetheless, I won't be racing to buy any of their ski pants any time soon.
     
  45. Sage Oya

    Sage Oya Like the herb, lover of Pabst, cup ramen devotee Ski Pass: Gold

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    I’m surprised by that response from XTM, would have thought they would have just exchanged them.
     
  46. LMB

    LMB Old but definitely not Crusty! Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah. Me too.

    XTM clearly going down the Thredbo line of PR
     
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  47. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Oh man, if you're not exaggerating here, screw that gaslighting nonsense! "Oh wow you must have had a bad crash to cause that damage" "Uh, no I didn't" "Oh you must have hit your head so hard, you don't even remember! And you must have damaged your eyes, you can't see all your bruises and cuts! Ah you look terrible, we'll call an ambulance!"

    On the other hand, I bet they get all the "just skiing along" stories. "I was just skiing along, and it broke" "Ok, and where were you skiing along?" "Well........the terrain park. Though technically, if you were nitpicking......'above' the terrain park....upside down....in a tree"
     
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  48. eneerhut

    eneerhut First Runs

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    Her words exactly, but she was nice about it.

    I can see why my story looks a bit dubious. It looks like I was attacked by an alpine drop bear.
     
  49. LMB

    LMB Old but definitely not Crusty! Ski Pass: Gold

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    Can I ask about the packing situation?
    I have accidentally damaged a few things in my snowboard bag. I’m pretty laissez faire when it comes to packing my snowboard bag, throw it all in, but the edges are never that sharp and usually buried flat at the bottom of the bag. Every time I’m taken skis I’ve shredded clothing because I’m not used to packing for sharp edges.
     
  50. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    You could argue they're not fit for purpose, if they were sold as ski pants.

    Mine were and came with deep cordura cuffs.